TB kills the jump?

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Bachus;7629703]
Some homework for the people who believe that the Holsteiner breed is done with TB; http://holsteiner-verband.de/upload/pdf/2014/VSSKatalog2014.pdf also in the jumpingclasses was a very interesting Ibisco xx bred by the president of the German Federation; Breido Graf zu Rantzau. I do not say we should all ride tb’s or halfbloods but neither should we ignore them, we need them to continue our breed and I live in the centre of the Holsteiner breed and have just attended two very interesting days which should have been interesting for all of you to find out what is going on here!![/QUOTE]

I don’t remember one person that said the “Holsteiner breed was done with TB’s” . Now you are just making things up as you go.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=RatWrangler;7629735]
That still doesn’t mean they aren’t the bulk of show horses in this country, or that none of the people who compete them aren’t good riders. You’re coming across pretty elitist here.[/QUOTE]

Did anyone say any of the things you just said ? No ! Please read for comprehension. We are talking about Tb’s killing the jump in top sporthorse breeding.

No one ever said the first thing about Hunters or their riders or the fact that they aren’t the bulk of showhorses.

[D_BaldStockings]

This jumper ranked mare is out of a TB mare by a stallion whose dam has Ladykiller XX and Sacramento Song XX as grandsires.

She is 79.88% TB, and an F1. Jumping 1.6m and winning in 2013.

Pimlico
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/589884

[D_BaldStockings]

How many living mares of any breed are there that are 1.6m producers?

Or are you looking at 2nd, 3rd, 4th dams?
Or are you looking at the sires on the bottom of the pedigree having produced 1.6m, though not through the direct dam line’s being used’s offspring?

If the dam line is so important, why isn’t this listed somewhere?

It seems now they are evaluating horses based on if they ‘look like’ jumpers at a young age. Or look like they ‘might’ produce jumpers.
This is not where you find out if a mare is a 1.6 m jumper or produces it.

[vineyridge]

UM, bayhawk, the New Zealanders are trying them. I can’t remember if the Australians are trying them. And I seem to recall reading that the Belgians were trying them.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7629929]
UM, bayhawk, the New Zealanders are trying them. I can’t remember if the Australians are trying them. And I seem to recall reading that the Belgians were trying them.[/QUOTE]

Trying what ? TB Stallions ? Hell , everybody is “trying” them. What’s your point ?

[vineyridge]

Trying American style hunter classes.

[Elles]

PNWJumper thank you for the information!
Okay, now I have taken a 2011 TB book out of my cupboard. These are the national hunt stallions in it: Alkaadhem, Bach, Beat All, Beneficial, Bollin Eric, Central Park, Classic Cliche, Coroner, Court Cave, Double Trigger, Dr Massini, Dubai Destination, Erhaab, Flying Legend, Fruits of Love, Gamut, Garuda, Helissio, Indian Danehill, Kadastrof, Kalanisi, Kapgarde, Kayf Tara, Kutub, Lucarno, Marienbard, Midnight Legend, Millenary, Mustameet, Overbury, Paternak, Phoenix Reach, Presenting, Pushkin, Rainshack, Revoque, Robin des Champs, Royal Anthem, Sagamix, Schiaparelli, Sendawar, September Storm, Shantou, Sulamani, Tikkanen, Touch of Land and Whitmore’s Conn.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7629944]
Trying American style hunter classes.[/QUOTE]

Losing proposition. Only Americans understand Hunters.

The trainers fly over to Europe and pluck Hunter prospects out 100’s they have looked at.

[omare]

I read an artiicle about a breeder who specifically bought the TB mare Petite Helena xx to cross with a french stallion Major de la Cour that was know to produce best with that type of mare. (FWIW She goes back to Fairy Gold and does have several crosses to Ksar.) Her primary producing daughter and produce have done well crossed back to powerhouses WBs. http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/133116

[andy.smaga]

[QUOTE=PNWjumper;7629797]
of course the ideal spot for a big wide oxer is from a bit further away than the ideal spot for a vertical. But where most horses at that level can happily jump from the base (note - I do not mean a “chip” or a short stride, but instead from a nice, not gappy spot), my guy CAN NOT (yet ;)). This is the result of what most people would consider a “good” spot (IIRC, we galloped up to the base - he didn’t have to compress his stride to make a step fit in, but there was also no gap to jump from). In other words, most UL jumpers can deal with a range of spots to a big oxer (e.g. short, slightly short, spot on, slightly long, long). My guy can only consistently handle the slightly long or long spot. And as I mentioned earlier, that doesn’t work well on a 2m spread set in the middle of a combination where you a) may not have the option to manufacture a slightly long spot or b) might pay for carrying too much momentum into a double element.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for explaining, the meaning once translated to French is a little different.
Nice horse.

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7629400]
No…hunters are not considered a sporthorse. They are not recognized as being a part of the Olympic disciplines.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think anyone has the authority to define the word “sporthorse,” and especially to assign the word “sporthorse” exclusively to Olympic disciplines.

I consider cutting and reining horses to be “sporthorses.” I consider hunters to be “sporthorses.” I consider racing TBs to be “sporthorses.” And, the word “sporthorse” is a relatively new term, really, when you apply it to breeding.

However, if your definition of the word “sporthorse” works for you, more power to you!

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Go Fish;7630005]
I don’t think anyone has the authority to define the word “sporthorse,” and especially to assign the word “sporthorse” exclusively to Olympic disciplines.

I consider cutting and reining horses to be “sporthorses.” I consider hunters to be “sporthorses.” I consider racing TBs to be “sporthorses.” And, the word “sporthorse” is a relatively new term, really, when you apply it to breeding.

However, if your definition of the word “sporthorse” works for you, more power to you! :D[/QUOTE]

You’re right…just using it in the Olympic disciplines sense.

I don’t consider Hunters sporthorses though.

[wentworth]

Exactly, the “sport horse breeding” board sure has a lot of hunter breeders and hunter stallion threads, so there are obviously different definitions. But even under your rationale, eventing IS an Olympic sport so I don’t think there are “NO thoroughbred bloodlines in sport.” And I did read (most) of this rather redundant thread, I was referring to this particular statement, and specified that. I’m not a breeder and don’t really care how sport horse is defined, but such sweeping extreme statements seem inaccurate.

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7630011]

I don’t consider Hunters sporthorses though.[/QUOTE]

That’s okay…we’re allowed to disagree on some stuff! :lol:

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Go Fish;7630041]
That’s okay…we’re allowed to disagree on some stuff! :lol:[/QUOTE]

Absolutely !

[D_BaldStockings]

How many living mares are there that are 1.6m producers and who are they?

I would think that there ought to be a list readily available somewhere, if everyone is so intent on damlines.

How many dams producing 1.6m jumpers have 2nd and/or 3rd dams that have also directly produced 1.6m jumpers?

If it is truly that important to have close ancestors that produced top jumpers on both sides of the pedigree…

Thanks

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7630256]
How many living mares are there that are 1.6m producers and who are they?

I would think that there ought to be a list readily available somewhere, if everyone is so intent on damlines.

How many dams producing 1.6m jumpers have 2nd and/or 3rd dams that have also directly produced 1.6m jumpers?

If it is truly that important to have close ancestors that produced top jumpers on both sides of the pedigree…

Thanks[/QUOTE]

If you want to know…look yourself. I know plenty right off the top of my head.

Why do you think they even bother compiling mare family rankings ? Because it is important ,that’s why. You have certain female families that are prepotent for producing jumping horses.

See…here is your issue…you have virtually no education when it comes to sporthorse production. If you did…you wouldn’t have asked the questions you just did.

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7630266]
If you want to know…look yourself. I know plenty right off the top of my head.

Why do you think they even bother compiling mare family rankings ? Because it is important ,that’s why. You have certain female families that are prepotent for producing jumping horses.

See…here is your issue…you have virtually no education when it comes to sporthorse production. If you did…you wouldn’t have asked the questions you just did.[/QUOTE]

What a helpful response.

FAMILY rankings are different than individual accomplishment.
Non-producing mare derivatives from a great stamm are still useless as breeders.

Once the hype fades, and the rails fall, anyway.

[D_BaldStockings]

This mare, foaled 1970, for instance, has produced 1 - 1.6m jumper in all of her descendants assuming the information is complete,

http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/21705

http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/314153

Is this sort of family considered to breed top level show jumpers from?

I ask because I see a few TB mares with a 1.6m jumping offspring, yet this is not enough? Because they are ‘not bred for it’?

-Yet they produce it.

I see.