Just to add, Horse Telex doesn’t show any get by any of the approved stallions from Galina jumping 1.60 either.
BUT Horse Telex isn’t a complete resource for all of the foals produced by a mare or stallion.
There are more than a few US/UK horses from this family who have jumping careers. Most of them with performance careers are shown with US/UK heights, most of which don’t come anywhere close to even 1.50 meters.
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7630307]
What a helpful response.
FAMILY rankings are different than individual accomplishment.
Non-producing mare derivatives from a great stamm are still useless as breeders.
Once they hype fades, and the rails fall, anyway.[/QUOTE]
No…you need to learn for yourself. You said… "How many living mares are 1.60 meter producers and who are they? "
Really ? You obviously have a computer. If you didn’t , I might be inclined to be more helpful.
You said Family rankings are different than individual accomplishment. They absolutely are…this is why I breed and buy from direct branches of the tree that has been the most successful.
Rails fall to the very best horses D Bald…but you have to have a horse in front of the rails first and not just talk about a horse that was in front of the rails 30,40 and 50 years ago.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;7630412]
Just to add, Horse Telex doesn’t show any get by any of the approved stallions from Galina jumping 1.60 either.
BUT Horse Telex isn’t a complete resource for all of the foals produced by a mare or stallion.
There are more than a few US/UK horses from this family who have jumping careers. Most of them with performance careers are shown with US/UK heights, most of which don’t come anywhere close to even 1.50 meters.[/QUOTE]
See… this is your same old song and dance…you have no knowledge of anything that isn’t on your book shelf or in your computer.
Maybe if you had ever been in the house of Galina’s breeders ,you may have in fact seen several photos on the wall of her international jumping offspring.
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7630370]
This mare, foaled 1970, for instance, has produced 1 - 1.6m jumper in all of her descendants assuming the information is complete,
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/progeny/21705
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/314153
Is this sort of family considered to breed top level show jumpers from?
I ask because I see a few TB mares with a 1.6m jumping offspring, yet this is not enough? Because they are ‘not bred for it’?
-Yet they produce it.
I see.[/QUOTE]
You guys are going to be snared by your own trap. Maybe you should look a little deeper or speak with someone who knows more than some pedigree website.
I spoke with an Advisor of Horsebreeding at the NRPS and he told me that when a TB is used performance will almost always follow. Maybe not F1 but it will normally happen.
These are the NRPS stallions: http://www.nrps.nl/hengsten/rijpaarden.pdf
A horse with the Twist line on top is going to the WEGs in eventing for GB.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7630011]
You’re right…just using it in the Olympic disciplines sense.
I don’t consider Hunters sporthorses though.[/QUOTE]
This is such a hugely different (and reductive) view from pretty much every other horse professional I’ve met–I’m just going to drop this conversation now, since I don’t think there’ll be any consensus here.
RatWranger, I very much appreciate everyone’s view!
We do not have hunters competitions in Holland and I would love to know more about the hunters with regard to TB blood!
[QUOTE=RatWrangler;7631196]
This is such a hugely different (and reductive) view from pretty much every other horse professional I’ve met–I’m just going to drop this conversation now, since I don’t think there’ll be any consensus here.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think the purpose of this discussion is to come to a consensus on anything. I read through all of these posts to try to understand where people are coming from and why. I don’t think anyone is of the belief that they can easily change someone’s mind about these topics with a few words on a BB. It is, however, fundamentally important to us who are trying to breed and sell to understand what a myriad of people think about issues that affect breeding.
I think everyone who has an opinion on these topics, and is inclined to discuss it, should feel free to do so despite what anyone else may say or think to the contrary. Some responses may not be sugarcoated…but it is a response, which means that people are considering different points of view at least long enough to fashion this response to them.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;7631164]
A horse with the Twist line on top is going to the WEGs in eventing for GB.[/QUOTE]
That’s De Novo News, 77.49% TB, sired by Last News (TB).
Four of the other 5 horses on the team:
Black Tie II, 100% TB, sired by Mughtanim out of DeeBee Lady.
High Kingdom, 87.5% TB, sired by Master Imp (TB) out of a half-TB mare.
Chilli Morning, 62.89% TB, sired by Phantomic (TB).
Allercombe Ellie, 69.1% TB, out of My Last Edition (TB).
Guess they didn’t get the word that TBs kill the jump…
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7630587]
See… this is your same old song and dance…you have no knowledge of anything that isn’t on your book shelf or in your computer.
Maybe if you had ever been in the house of Galina’s breeders ,you may have in fact seen several photos on the wall of her international jumping offspring.[/QUOTE]
interesting.
You quote statistics at us; or claim to.
Fail to reveal your source.
Refer us to breeders in Europe who have pictures on their walls…
and this mare is circa 1970, so immaterial to your assertion that PRESENT horses only be valued in a pedigree.
I am beginning to believe there is no list anywhere, nor any reasonable way to attain such a list short of going to the FEI and researching their records for the last 20 years or so.
In TB racing, for example, I can find speed and distance run comparisons for horses of the last 20-25 years, times in every race, at every furlong.
I can get their owners and trainers, giving me insight into how or why they may have performed well or poorly.
I can get complete information for a horse’s 1st, 2nd, 3rd dams production of performance or producing offspring, and the get of their sire, dam’s sire, or grandsire.
all easily found on line.
I can find ranking lists of sires of GP jumpers, but not all sires of GP horses, and without comparative stats of # of horses sired, # of competing horses, etc., that might lead one to find horses with higher success than the expected.
Beauty contest wins aka keurings and inspections do not relate to adult jumping success: you can’t judge a milk cow by how pretty a heifer she is.
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7631525]
interesting.
You quote statistics at us; or claim to.
Fail to reveal your source.
Refer us to breeders in Europe who have pictures on their walls…
and this mare is circa 1970, so immaterial to your assertion that PRESENT horses only be valued in a pedigree.
I am beginning to believe there is no list anywhere, nor any reasonable way to attain such a list short of going to the FEI and researching their records for the last 20 years or so.
In TB racing, for example, I can find speed and distance run comparisons for horses of the last 20-25 years, times in every race, at every furlong.
I can get their owners and trainers, giving me insight into how or why they may have performed well or poorly.
I can get complete information for a horse’s 1st, 2nd, 3rd dams production of performance or producing offspring, and the get of their sire, dam’s sire, or grandsire.
all easily found on line.
I can find ranking lists of sires of GP jumpers, but not all sires of GP horses, and without comparative stats of # of horses sired, # of competing horses, etc., that might lead one to find horses with higher success than the expected.
Beauty contest wins aka keurings and inspections do not relate to adult jumping success: you can’t judge a milk cow by how pretty a heifer she is.[/QUOTE]
Again… you have no idea what you are talking about.
You have the audacity to post a link to the motherline of the mare at the Elite mare show yesterday and PRETEND you know the first thing about it. Oh yeah…I forgot. You get your info from a site that solely depends on people entering horses on it from time to time. I get my info from the actual breeder and by PERSONALLY knowing EVERY mare in the first 5 generations , all their children , and what they have produced.
This is the #1 stamm (female family for your benefit) in the world for producing international showjumpers. This ONE Stamm is more than likely responsible for producing more international jumpers than the entire TB Breed has and you are trying to pick apart one branch of it with your kindergarten level of knowledge ? TRYING being the operative word…you don’t possess enough knowledge to even know where to start.
You can go back now to picking out isolated TB’s that appear in a sporthorse pedigree somewhere.
Unbelievable !
Bayhawk,
Since most of us don’t personally know a bunch of warmblood breeders and (sadly) aren’t able to make regular trips to Germany, where do you suggest that we obtain information about mare families, sirelines, progeny etc? Please provide readily accessible sources (there must be some out there), not just what a breeder told you or your personal opinion. Also, are you saying that you personally know every mare/offspring/production record in the first 5 generations of a mare foaled in 1970? How old are you anyway?
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7631570]
Again… you have no idea what you are talking about.
You have the audacity to post a link to the motherline of the mare at the Elite mare show yesterday and PRETEND you know the first thing about it. Oh yeah…I forgot. You get your info from a site that solely depends on people entering horses on it from time to time. I get my info from the actual breeder and by PERSONALLY knowing EVERY mare in the first 5 generations , all their children , and what they have produced.
This is the #1 stamm (female family for your benefit) in the world for producing international showjumpers. This ONE Stamm is more than likely responsible for producing more international jumpers than the entire TB Breed has and you are trying to pick apart one branch of it with your kindergarten level of knowledge ? TRYING being the operative word…you don’t possess enough knowledge to even know where to start.
You can go back now to picking out isolated TB’s that appear in a sporthorse pedigree somewhere.
Unbelievable ![/QUOTE]
I must conclude that breeding successful GP Show Jumpers relies completely on direct word of mouth and direct eyes on in Bayhawk’s experience; without access to written records.
-Even Mendel counted his pea plants. The first rule of genetics is observation, recording, and comparison over time. Lacking actual numbers, one is reduced to opinion and prejudice…now where have I heard that label applied?
I look forward to any breeder achieving that breeding goal of a performing GP horse someday.
[QUOTE=zipperfoot;7631613]
Bayhawk,
Since most of us don’t personally know a bunch of warmblood breeders and (sadly) aren’t able to make regular trips to Germany, where do you suggest that we obtain information about mare families, sirelines, progeny etc? Please provide readily accessible sources (there must be some out there), not just what a breeder told you or your personal opinion. Also, are you saying that you personally know every mare/offspring/production record in the first 5 generations of a mare foaled in 1970? How old are you anyway?[/QUOTE]
The Galina mare born in 1970 is the only one I never met in this line . Her next daughter by Lord was born in 1984 , her daughter by Landgraf was born in 1990 , her daughter by Acorado was born in 2002 ,her daughter by Carlos was born in 2006 and her 3 yr old Connor daughter was born in 2011.
I personally know some some 30 horses from just these few mares listed above in this particular branch of the stamm.
You can buy the stamm books ,stallion books , talk to breeders , fly to Europe and witness competitions , stallion approvals , mare approvals , foal brandings ,visit the families of the horses you own or are interested in ,become a member of Clipmyhorse.tv and watch and learn all you can. These are just a few examples of how to properly garner knowledge.
It’s none of you buisness how old I am…LOL
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7631630]
I must conclude that breeding successful GP Show Jumpers relies completely on direct word of mouth and direct eyes on in Bayhawk’s experience; without access to written records.
-Even Mendel counted his pea plants. The first rule of genetics is observation, recording, and comparison over time. Lacking actual numbers, one is reduced to opinion and prejudice…now where have I heard that label applied?
I look forward to any breeder achieving that breeding goal of a performing GP horse someday.[/QUOTE]
There are several horses that have jumped internationally in the motherline link you provided. It’s your fault you only have enough know how to find one.
What I have always noted these last 40 years is that a lot of Germans tend to speak German to Dutch people. I do not know if that is because they know that a lot of Dutch people speak German or because a lot of Germans do not speak English so well…
[QUOTE=Elles;7631684]
What I have always noted these last 40 years is that a lot of Germans tend to speak German to Dutch people. I do not know if that is because they know that a lot of Dutch people speak German or because a lot of Germans do not speak English so well…[/QUOTE]
Cant answer the question about the Dutch but besides an older German Farmer…every German I know speaks great English.
and I would love to know more about the hunters with regard to TB blood!
Well, good luck with that because (sadly) TBs are pretty much out of the AA hunter ring too.
You’ll see more on the local circuits, but the problem is one of fashion & there are very few Hunter breeders using TB lines any more. You’ll see some WB/TB crosses, but many hunter folks hop across the pond for their 3’ & up show hunters.
The only place TBs still dominate is eventing. And, as has been repeated ad nauseum, the only way that’ll change is if we start purpose breeding TBs for sport.
Personally, I would love to see a TB revival in the hunter ring. They really are a good choice for it.
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