Let’s turn it around now. If TB blood is a jump killer we should be looking for the horses with the least TB blood to get the best jump. Which examples do we have of horses with less than 25 % of blood that are very good jumpers?
You know, it’s a bit insulting to say that breeding, owning and showing WBs is “fashion.” Give owners, riders and trainers some credit. Buying a purpose-bred horse is not like buying a pair of shoes.
When I started with hunters nearly 20 years ago, it made absolute sense to buy a horse that was bred for the purpose that I intended to use it for. I further decided to own, show and breed Holsteiners because that’s what they do. Why start off trying to re-invent the wheel? It makes absolutely no sense, and like PNW Jumper, I’m not going to risk my limited pocketbook by taking a chance on a horse that probably isn’t going to cut it at the sport I’m involved with. Maybe TBs were all that and a bag of chips 30-40 years ago, but times (and TBs) have changed and I don’t think there’s any going back.
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7631664]
There are several horses that have jumped internationally in the motherline link you provided. It’s your fault you only have enough know how to find one.[/QUOTE]
‘International’ is not at issue.
Clearly there are horses in several countries and at several levels less than 1.6m.
1.6m competitive height was the only criteria I mentioned.
Please tell me another if you have the know how to ‘find’ one.
I will gladly accept even an offspring of one of the stallion sons of the Galina stamm that is a 1.6m competitor.
Thank you
Go do the research. Pour through books, inquire with registries and breeders and riders. But do try to be more humble and respectful than you have been throughout this thread. If you want information, it’s best not to be so rude and dismissive: it’s extremely off-putting and counterproductive if you are honestly seeking knowledge. To speak only for myself, however, you come off not as interested in educating yourself, but in trying to insult and argue with other people.
Horsetelex is tricky–it really does not provide a mare line family tree-only parts or branches of it. For example, if you go to the daughter
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/family/251917
you get another “picture” of the family so you need to go back and keep clicking and mentally cut and paste it all togehter or buy the mare stamm book (but I am not sure that is totally detailed with all foals of a family)
[QUOTE=omare;7631970]
Horsetelex is tricky–it really does not provide a mare line family tree-only parts or branches of it. For example, if you go to the daughter
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/family/251917
you get another “picture” of the family so you need to go back and keep clicking and mentally cut and paste it all togehter or buy the mare stamm book (but I am not sure that is totally detailed with all foals of a family)[/QUOTE]
This is right Omare…
And thank you LadyJ…she only wants the information so she can then pour thru 10 million TB horses and find one to dis-credit the WB with.
This mare stamm book, where could I get one? What languages is it available in (I’m afraid I only know English and Spanish), are there many pictures of the mares? Are these books very expensive?
I know this is not enough for deep knowledge, I just want to have an idea of what you are working from and hopefully to see the progress of the mare lines through pictures. Of course any sport achievements would also be nice.
[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7631941]
‘International’ is not at issue.
Clearly there are horses in several countries and at several levels less than 1.6m.
1.6m competitive height was the only criteria I mentioned.
Please tell me another if you have the know how to ‘find’ one.
I will gladly accept even an offspring of one of the stallion sons of the Galina stamm that is a 1.6m competitor.
Thank you[/QUOTE]
Yes , international is relevant. When we (the jumping horse people in the sport community) refer to one of the horses jumping internationally…we mean Grand Prix. Not 1.3 not 1.4 but at the Grand Prix Level…capish ?
I will not tell you how to find them , but I will tell you that every mare forward from Galina and including Galina has either competed at or produced and international jumping Grand Prix horse until you get to the younger mares in the front of the pedigree and of course , who’s children aren’t old enough yet. Why do I feel like I’m speaking with a 5th grader ?
And you make a demand that you will “accept” something ? No one works for you. You are no ones boss…
You are the epitome of this fabulous quote from one of my best friends in Europe…
“D_Baldstockings knows it exactly…yet she knows nothing”
[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;7632025]
This mare stamm book, where could I get one? What languages is it available in (I’m afraid I only know English and Spanish), are there many pictures of the mares? Are these books very expensive? [/QUOTE]
This is a great option to start with: http://www.amazon.com/Holsteiner-Stutenstämme-Claus-Schridde/dp/3935985401/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1403221386&sr=1-5&keywords=holsteiner
http://shop.holsteiner-verband.de/product_info.php?cPath=33&products_id=129
[QUOTE=is_V;7632042]
This is a great option to start with: http://www.amazon.com/Holsteiner-Stutenstämme-Claus-Schridde/dp/3935985401/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1403221386&sr=1-5&keywords=holsteiner[/QUOTE]
Exaclty is_V . Perfect book to start…although there have been 2 before it that would really show the progreesion better up to this the 3rd one.
Jackie , you can also go on the Holsteiner Verband website and they have a store there where you can buy many books. You can also call the AHHA office…I know Patricia had some there as well.
And Jackie…there is very little in them thats not English
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7631658]
You can buy the stamm books ,stallion books , talk to breeders , fly to Europe and witness competitions , stallion approvals , mare approvals , foal brandings ,visit the families of the horses you own or are interested in ,become a member of Clipmyhorse.tv and watch and learn all you can. These are just a few examples of how to properly garner knowledge.[/QUOTE]
Agree that it would be helpful to do all of these things, but when it gets right down to it, the only way to objectively evaluate a performance horse is by its performance, in this case whether it can jump and/or produce offspring that can jump. Hopefully these qualities would be documented with some sort of statistics (performance testing or competition results, for instance). Many (not all) of the ways you list to obtain knowledge are based at least partially on subjective analysis and opinion. The other part of objective analysis is that the information be readily available.
For instance, I (and anyone else) can look up my OTTB mare’s performance record (racing), including number of races run, dates, distances, where she finished, how fast she ran, who her competition was, money won etc. I can also find similar information for her sire, dam, and other family members for generations back. WBs don’t race of course, but is it possible to look up detailed performance/production information about them and if so, where? Is this the kind of information that’s available in the stamm books and stallion books?
[QUOTE=Elles;7631878]
Let’s turn it around now. If TB blood is a jump killer we should be looking for the horses with the least TB blood to get the best jump. Which examples do we have of horses with less than 25 % of blood that are very good jumpers?[/QUOTE]
Not below 25% but low TB blood at 29% is the super stallion Darco, who won at international Grand Prix level and jumped at Barcelona Olympics and World Equestrian Games with Ludo Philippaerts. He then became the #1 jumper stallion in the world for producing jumper horses and maintained the title four years in a row (even after his death in 2006).
He looks heavy in type but is known for his rather hot temperament.
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/1345
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuyRDSut4nE
http://www.wbfsh.org/GB/Rankings/Sire%20Rankings/2013.aspx
I own one of his grand daughters who has 31% blood but has also a hot temperament.
http://www.hipicolasilla.com/wp/?page_id=376&gcur=67
I am never going to be able to breed horses again, I stopped trying when I realized that with my MS I could not guarantee that I would be strong enough to turn a mal-presented foal. We do have several horse vets around, but I have had a few long waits for a vet, and a foaling mare has to be taken care of right away. Besides, I am an Arab person, and I have most of the books necessary for knowledge there. Yeah, Al-Khamsa horses all the way, to me those are the horses worth all my physical labor. But then I am not into international level open jumping.
It may take me a year or two before I can afford the books, but I will probably get them as soon as I can.
You all have touched my heart with your devotion to your dam lines. Historically Arabian horse people are extremely devoted to our utterly precious dam lines, and so many of these lines have disappeared through the centuries that Europeans and then Americans bred them (often through just plain bad luck.) All those wonderful horses that could have been born if someone, anyone, had bred these mares intelligently instead of essentially throwing them away.
Treasure your good dam lines. Those mitochondria are important too!
Off topic – Bayhawk - is Patricia still with the AHHA … in Oregon? If you have contact info for her (wherever), I would be most grateful. Please PM me. Many thanks.
[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;7632082]
I am never going to be able to breed horses again, I stopped trying when I realized that with my MS I could not guarantee that I would be strong enough to turn a mal-presented foal. We do have several horse vets around, but I have had a few long waits for a vet, and a foaling mare has to be taken care of right away. Besides, I am an Arab person, and I have most of the books necessary for knowledge there. Yeah, Al-Khamsa horses all the way, to me those are the horses worth all my physical labor. But then I am not into international level open jumping.
It may take me a year or two before I can afford the books, but I will probably get them as soon as I can.
You all have touched my heart with your devotion to your dam lines. Historically Arabian horse people are extremely devoted to our utterly precious dam lines, and so many of these lines have disappeared through the centuries that Europeans and then Americans bred them (often through just plain bad luck.) All those wonderful horses that could have been born if someone, anyone, had bred these mares intelligently instead of essentially throwing them away.
Treasure your good dam lines. Those mitochondria are important too![/QUOTE]
Hey Jackie…I don’t know you but appreciate you. PM me your name and address and I will send you a Holsteiner Stamm book.
[QUOTE=LavenderFarm;7632115]
Off topic – Bayhawk - is Patricia still with the AHHA … in Oregon? If you have contact info for her (wherever), I would be most grateful. Please PM me. Many thanks.[/QUOTE]
Hey…Patricia is still in the office and it did move to Oregon. I don’t have the # readily available but I’m sure it is on holsteiner.com
[QUOTE=zipperfoot;7632055]
Agree that it would be helpful to do all of these things, but when it gets right down to it, the only way to objectively evaluate a performance horse is by its performance, in this case whether it can jump and/or produce offspring that can jump. Hopefully these qualities would be documented with some sort of statistics (performance testing or competition results, for instance). Many (not all) of the ways you list to obtain knowledge are based at least partially on subjective analysis and opinion. The other part of objective analysis is that the information be readily available.
For instance, I (and anyone else) can look up my OTTB mare’s performance record (racing), including number of races run, dates, distances, where she finished, how fast she ran, who her competition was, money won etc. I can also find similar information for her sire, dam, and other family members for generations back. WBs don’t race of course, but is it possible to look up detailed performance/production information about them and if so, where? Is this the kind of information that’s available in the stamm books and stallion books?[/QUOTE]
Correct. But we were talking about families that have a propensity for regularly producing these sporthorses.
We still have to evaluate each horse standing in front of us for sure. Not all horses even from super mares and mare families are going to be super…BUT , when you know the families and what they are known to throw…you can cull more quickly as a direct result of noticing the lack of the normal consistency.
The top breeders usually know by the age of 1 week old whether they will keep that filly for breeding or not. They have been known to be wrong…but it’s extremely rare because they know what to look for from their family.
This is where I totally agree that TB’s kill the jump in F-1 . I have seen it first hand over the last 20 years by evaluating the horses put in front of me. Horses sired by TB Stallions usually are not top jumpers. They have far more input being in the motherline of the warmblood.
You can get info from the stamm books , stallion books , FEI ,Horse telex and the Minister of Agriculture for Schleswig- Holstein compiles breeding values on every breeding stallion in Holstein. This is exactly where TOM was quoting the #'s from the other day in this thread regarding Heraldik xx and Sir Shostakovich xx .
It gives you a great idea of who is producing what and who improves or doesn’t improve what.
Competition results are easily discovered thru the FEI or numerous other outlets. WBSFH…they rank studbooks ,sires and sporthorses based off of competition.
There are many outlets to acquiring alot of info.
If you are breeding or are trying to buy a filly for breeding…the family is really important. If you are just trying to buy a sporthorse , then the only thing that matters is if the horse can do the job you want it to do or not.
In Holland many horses are not competed. Lots of riders are just not competitive or do not have the time, the energy, the money or what ever to compete. So lots of horses never really get tested and especially not by the best of riders. There are loads and loads of competitions and people certainly do not have to travel the distances people in America have to travel. But petrol is very expensive and especially driving around in a big and heavy car. And one has to get a special drivers licence to travel with horses.
[QUOTE=is_V;7632063]
Not below 25% but low TB blood at 29% is the super stallion Darco, who won at international Grand Prix level and jumped at Barcelona Olympics and World Equestrian Games with Ludo Philippaerts. He then became the #1 jumper stallion in the world for producing jumper horses and maintained the title four years in a row (even after his death in 2006).
He looks heavy in type but is known for his rather hot temperament.
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/1345
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuyRDSut4nE
http://www.wbfsh.org/GB/Rankings/Sire%20Rankings/2013.aspx
I own one of his grand daughters who has 31% blood but has also a hot temperament.
http://www.hipicolasilla.com/wp/?page_id=376&gcur=67[/QUOTE]
25% still means that out of every four ancestors one is a TB. But it is hard to find a horse with under 25% of blood that has recently been performing (these last ten years).
And of course horsetelex only looks at the last nine generations and in many cases blood was infused around the year 1900 or a bit earlier. Like in this horse for example: http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/15317 from 1951 42.58% ox/xx and no bloodhorse to be seen in the five generations.
Or in this one: http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/13228 born in 1909 and XX/OX rate: 64.06%.
