TB kills the jump?

[Jackie_Cochran]

I am going to add something that has nothing to do with the Holsteiner mare lines.

Decades ago, when Arabian pari-mutual racing was starting in the USA, the most expert non-breeder (Gladys Brown Edwards) commented that Arabs with high trots (fore arm level) were the most athletically capable racing Arabians, unlike the TB where high action tends to slow down the horse (Man O’War being the big TB exception, he galloped high.) She was not commenting on jumping ability at all, mainly because Arabs are proven to “kill the TB jump” as well as the TB speed. Back then the high trotting Polish Arabs were beating the domestic bred lower trotting action Arabians handily. Of course the Polish horses are EXPENSIVE now, especially the good Polish Arab race horses.

As a hint from what I’ve observed, give up the pretty head, the pretty head won’t do your athleticism any good and if it is emphasized too much the leg joints get smaller. This is also a problem in the TB and ASB, pretty heads shrink the dimensions of the knee and hock joints big time, even worse than what happens with the Arabian.

[Manni01]

[QUOTE=Elles;7632352]
http://www.hippologi.com/vollblutinderwarmblutzucht.htm
When I have the time I will translate.[/QUOTE]
I think FannieMae wrote this, so I am sure she will be able to translante this too…

[Elles]

Ramzes managed to have offspring that could jump. How did he do that? However a Shagya is probably a bit different from an Arabian.

[Elles]

[QUOTE=Manni01;7632848]
I think FannieMae wrote this, so I am sure she will be able to translante this too…[/QUOTE]

That would be great because I do not think I have the energy to do it.

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=Elles;7632895]
That would be great because I do not think I have the energy to do it.[/QUOTE]

Is this the same article?
http://www.hippologi.com/vollblutengl.htm

[Jackie_Cochran]

Shagyas, wonderful horses that they are, are not pure Arabian. The breeders wanted a taller Arabian and HAD to go out to get the heighth.

IF the Arabian “kills the TB jump” then a CAREFULLY selected Arab may be a good refining outcross, and if carefully selected Arabians did not “kill the jump” as bad as the TB in the Trakhener this might be a solution for keeping the riding qualities. But you are NOT going to find Arabs jumping the big jumps in competition.

I am aware of only ONE Arab, a mare, that cleared 5’ at a horse show in England, a stone wall (a REAL stone wall, not a fake one) somewhere around 1880s-90s. This was incredibly long ago, and I am pretty sure that her bloodlines, if they survived at all, are extremely rare. I know she produced at least one foal because it was running around after her in the show ring while she was jumping! She came from a Arabian breeder, Miss Dillon, that did not breed for beauty as she wanted horses to go fox hunting on. To explore this breeding program, her stallion was EL EMIR (b. 1873, considered ugly by Arabian breeders), All-Breed Pedigree lists him and has a photo of him and progeny lists. Sorry, I can’t remember the name of the mare. She MAY have been descended from the DB mare HAGAR (b. 1872), Lady Anne Blunt’s riding mare during their first trip in the desert looking for Arabs for breeding. The Blunts cast Hagar off because her get were probably ugly, Hagar would never have won a beauty contest, especially for her head! She is also listed on All-Breed with a photo and progeny lists. Hagar is one of the mare lines that I really wish the Blunts had not cast out, having read the book (“Bedouin Tribes of the Euphrates” by Lady Anne Blunt) Hagar was more than adequate as a riding horse since she was carrying Lady Blunt on a SIDE SADDLE through the desert/arid landscapes. Miss Dillon did not care about beautiful heads and bred her extensively.

[vineyridge]

Speaking of pure TB sporthorses, the British have just named a pure TB out of the same dam as Parklane Hawk and with the same grandsire on top as Neville Bardos (Danzig) to their WEG eventing team. Name is Black Tie II but he’s a NZ TB registered as Detente.

The US has also named one pure TB to their WEG team (Donner) and has two others named as alternates (Pirate and Inmidair)

Jock Paget, winner of both Burghley (disqualified) and Badminton on his TB Clifton Promise, is trying to qualify for the NZ Team but it’s going to be hard since he was suspended until a week or so ago.

I’ve been thinking of the proposition that TBs do better jumping out of a fast pace, and that seems to have a good bit of truth in it. And would explain why changing the courses and the questions they ask would drive them out of both show jumpers and hunters.

[SEPowell]

[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;7632840]
I am going to add something that has nothing to do with the Holsteiner mare lines.

Decades ago, when Arabian pari-mutual racing was starting in the USA, the most expert non-breeder (Gladys Brown Edwards) commented that Arabs with high trots (fore arm level) were the most athletically capable racing Arabians, unlike the TB where high action tends to slow down the horse (Man O’War being the big TB exception, he galloped high.) She was not commenting on jumping ability at all, mainly because Arabs are proven to “kill the TB jump” as well as the TB speed. Back then the high trotting Polish Arabs were beating the domestic bred lower trotting action Arabians handily. Of course the Polish horses are EXPENSIVE now, especially the good Polish Arab race horses.

As a hint from what I’ve observed, give up the pretty head, the pretty head won’t do your athleticism any good and if it is emphasized too much the leg joints get smaller. This is also a problem in the TB and ASB, pretty heads shrink the dimensions of the knee and hock joints big time, even worse than what happens with the Arabian.[/QUOTE]

The idea that high action slows the thoroughbred down is a new concept to me and I don’t think one generally accepted by many thoroughbred race trainers. I remember riding a filly with higher action than many of the x-show riders in the barn liked and they often made fun of her. At the time the trainer I worked for shared his barn with Joe Clancy Sr. at Fair Hill. One day Joe came up to me and told me that he thought this particular filly was pretty nice and not to listen to what they were saying about daisy cutters. That filly turned into a pretty nice allowance filly. Not once did I ever hear a trainer speak about preferring horses with daisy cutter action, only those exercise riders.

I actually prefer thoroughbreds with more action. Also, more often than not steeplechase horses have a good amount of action.

[Jackie_Cochran]

Man O’War was MAINLY a broodmare sire. He shows up a lot in the middle of the pedigree of many OTTBs, but pretty far back.

The TB “daisy cutting” trot was preferred by the Hunter show class judges, both on the flat and headed toward the jumps, at least they did in the 1970s. I find it absolutely fascinating that present day TB race horse trainers don’t like it as much as the hunter class horse show judges do!

[SEPowell]

Well, I only knew a small group of trainers and all of those also trained steeplechase horses.

I also worked the sales at Saratoga and daisy cutter action was not among the things buyers looked for. Rather they wanted straight movement with a nice overreach, movement from the shoulder, etc. etc., but not necessarily daisy cutter action.

[D_BaldStockings]

For Jackie Cochran,
Some Arabs and Arab relateds post WWII:
http://alhawajerstud.com/show-jumping/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDjy177RJlw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0XhwweAnQE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSd5XtSp11Q

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Arabian-Bred-HunterJumper-Association/259058880704
Silver Burch

edit: one more
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hMJuqLg7mA

So here we have not just TB but 2 jump killers: Arabian plus Thoroughbred.

Amazing.

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=SEPowell;7633020]
The idea that high action slows the thoroughbred down is a new concept to me and I don’t think one generally accepted by many thoroughbred race trainers. I remember riding a filly with higher action than many of the x-show riders in the barn liked and they often made fun of her. At the time the trainer I worked for shared his barn with Joe Clancy Sr. at Fair Hill. One day Joe came up to me and told me that he thought this particular filly was pretty nice and not to listen to what they were saying about daisy cutters. That filly turned into a pretty nice allowance filly. Not once did I ever hear a trainer speak about preferring horses with daisy cutter action, only those exercise riders.

I actually prefer thoroughbreds with more action. Also, more often than not steeplechase horses have a good amount of action.[/QUOTE]

Many people consider some action to correlate with jumping ability, or at least folding and clearing with the front end.

[Elles]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7632976]
Is this the same article?
http://www.hippologi.com/vollblutengl.htm[/QUOTE]

Well it is a shorter version but it is much better than nothing :-). Thanks for mentioning this.

[Elles]

http://www.equivista.fr/la-genereuse-peneloppe-de-ligny-qui-toisait-1m63-et-gagnait-egalement-des-puissances-et-des-six-barres-en-franchissant-2m-et-plu-album-photo-26391.html

http://www.equivista.fr/jument-aa-gp-a1-iso-153-peneloppe-de-ligny-par-l-excellent-barigoule-etalon-de-tete-du-depot-de-compiegne-pendant-pres-de-10-ans-album-photo-26389.html

[Jackie_Cochran]

Somewhere along the line I was going to suggest French Arabs/Anglo-Arabs. I am not very familiar with their Arab bloodlines, but their selection criteria for Arabs was different than the Blunts of Crabbet Park, and the French breeding emphasis of their Arabs was different too. VERY looked down upon by breeders of the gorgeous “classic” Arabians. The USA does have a successful French dam line from *Kola 485 (b.1912).

Miss Dillon bought her stallion El Emir from the French who had imported him from the desert.

[andy.smaga]

Forget French AA, they are also out of the top of the sport today, SB management is a failure and the breeders pays the the consequences.

[Jackie_Cochran]

Too bad. Alas, that is the fate of many bloodlines.

[Manni01]

well there are some nice ones left… A nice stallion is in Germany… Sorry his page is German…
http://www.soederhof.de/fandsy.html

[Beaver_Breeze]

[QUOTE=SEPowell;7633020]
The idea that high action slows the thoroughbred down is a new concept to me and I don’t think one generally accepted by many thoroughbred race trainers. I remember riding a filly with higher action than many of the x-show riders in the barn liked and they often made fun of her. At the time the trainer I worked for shared his barn with Joe Clancy Sr. at Fair Hill. One day Joe came up to me and told me that he thought this particular filly was pretty nice and not to listen to what they were saying about daisy cutters. That filly turned into a pretty nice allowance filly. Not once did I ever hear a trainer speak about preferring horses with daisy cutter action, only those exercise riders.

I actually prefer thoroughbreds with more action. Also, more often than not steeplechase horses have a good amount of action.[/QUOTE]

I would disagree. High knees are considered to be inefficient by flat trainers and more likely to create soundness issues. It is definitely more forgivable in flat runners on turf (I can’t speak to the steeplechasers, but having it be forgivable there doesn’t surprise me at all), but it is not a desired trait, despite some high-profile horses who ran through it. The trainers I know would definitely prefer a daisycutter over a horse with high action, although nobody turns one down if it has shown it has talent.

[SEPowell]

[QUOTE=Beaver Breeze;7633616]
I would disagree. High knees are considered to be inefficient by flat trainers and more likely to create soundness issues. It is definitely more forgivable in flat runners on turf (I can’t speak to the steeplechasers, but having it be forgivable there doesn’t surprise me at all), but it is not a desired trait, despite some high-profile horses who ran through it. The trainers I know would definitely prefer a daisycutter over a horse with high action, although nobody turns one down if it has shown it has talent.[/QUOTE]

Interesting. I had very little experience with horses that ran shorter distances. Almost all my experience was with turf horses and steeplechase horses. I wonder if that’s why we have such different perspectives.