TB kills the jump?

[vineyridge]

Sarastro AC was the leading event stallion in France before his fairly recent death. He had a son who won the Young Horse World Championships as an undefeated 6yo. Then he got injured, was off for almost two years, and came back to get to the Boekelo CCIO3* where he was withdrawn before sj. Wish I could remember his name, which begins with P I think. I wonder what’s happened to him. He was the same year at Le Lion that Mighty Magic was reserve champion as a 6yo. His name was Petrus de la Triballe, and he hasn’t done an FEI event since Boekelo in 2012. He came back with a 4th, won a CIC 3* and then did Boekelo.

So the only event he completed but didn’t win was his comeback 4th.

He was registered as an SF.
http://sporthorse-data.com/d?z=wpaxTe&d=Petrus+de+la+Triballe&x=24&y=11

The 2nd place horse at the Pau 4* last year was AA.
http://sporthorse-data.com/d?d=Cathar+de+Gamel&x=14&y=9

[SnicklefritzG]

I think the price tag is a big part of the equation. There is a lot more money to be made in the WB world. Put X amount of time into a TB and it isn’t necessarily going to command the same price tag as a WB.

[QUOTE=TKR;7576570]
That is painting with a very broad stroke. It sounds like people just regurgitating something they’ve heard trying to sound like they are knowledgable. JMO. Horses are individuals like any other living being. Not every wb has jumping talent, neither does every Thoroughbred. History certainly has recorded alot of Thoroughbreds that have won at the international and Olympic level. There has been a bias in the last 20 years or so favoring wb’s, most of which have inherited talent from the Thoroughbred influence. Thoroughbreds still have the talent and many more would be out there if the wb’s had not gained such popularity as people follow the flavor of the moment and they have had success. I think it is very unfortunate that more Thoroughbreds are not considered or given a chance by riders and trainers who jump at the higher levels. It has greatly affected breeding Thoroughbreds for sport and has the domino effect through the ranks of competitors. There is always going to be the need for “blood” in the wb’s. The Thoroughbred has managed to stand on their own w/o the wb when given the chance. The “modern” wb has modeled itself into a more Thoroughbred-type horse – must be a reason!
PennyG[/QUOTE]

[vineyridge]

We’ll wait and see what happens with the Maddens’ TB experiment. I just read on their website that one of their Keenland yearling purchases had to be put down at five due to a pasture accident. But they are still continuing on with two.

BTW, remember Bayhawk bashing me for suggesting that perhaps Authentic’s TB blood was part of the reason he was selected, because Beezie likes a TB ride. He asked how I could possibly know that.

The Chronicle had an article by John Madden talking about how he goes about selecting young horses to bring along, and here’s a quote:

A few of my preferences are that I like a Thoroughbred type horse with good feet.

---

I like blood horses, horses that have a lot of energy and are light on their feet. It doesn’t bother me if a young horse is fresh; it does if they’re dull. In the process of selecting horses, it is very important to try to stay objective. We all do this because we love horses, and it’s very easy to fall in love.

The article specifically mentions that he and Beezie bought Authentic as a prospect and brought him along.

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/shopping-international-jumper-prospect

I also remember reading an article in Horse Magazine where one of the interviewees said that high blood horses are easier for women to ride because they are more forward and lighter in the hand. Might have been Ludger Beerbaum, but I do remember that he put his comment in terms of “blood”. What do you suppose Blood means to him?

[Bayhawk]

Authentic is not a TB…never going to be a TB , no matter how much you want him to be.

Once again…you find a horse with some xx’s in the pedigree and you start your never ending speculation.

[vineyridge]

Never said he was a TB; just that the Maddens seem to like the TB type ride. And it stands to reason that more TB blood might produce a more TB ride.

John Madden likes a TB type horse with good feet, blood horses with a lot of energy that are light on their feet, and just what do you think “blood horses” means exactly?

[ladyj79]

It’s not necessarily the amount of blood, but the right blood. I’ve ridden a number of wbs who are 75-85% blood and big heavy clods. The wrong blood in the wrong places. I personally own two who are 48% and 52% who are both light and forward. The right blood in the right places.

[andy.smaga]

[QUOTE=Manni01;7633584]
well there are some nice ones left… A nice stallion is in Germany… Sorry his page is German…
http://www.soederhof.de/fandsy.html[/QUOTE]
Sorry I should have mentioned in showjumping, because there are some eventers left.

[Elles]

http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/301946
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/300769
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/1540760
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/1552322
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/86263
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/657344

http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/436673 XX/OX rate: 79,10% TB female line.

[andy.smaga]

Elles, please don’t believe everything on Horsetelex…
I checked the first link you submit and the horse is a 140 horse not a 160 (huge difference)
Official data can be found here: https://ffecompet.ffe.com/cheval#id=66aeba2742c802a99baecf9681caf06a
Click on the green button.

second link is a horse doing mainly 130-140 (check USEF data)

third link is a horse who participated in one only 160 and didn’t place

I stop here, because I’m sure there is one real French Anglo Arab doing 160, but exceptions is not what we are looking at.

[Elles]

It looks like a lot of people started to use the Anglo’s to cross them with Selle Francais horses. Like it is the case with this horse: http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/494501
http://www.globalchampionstour.com/profiles/horses/1215/nebula/results/

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7633908]
Never said he was a TB; just that the Maddens seem to like the TB type ride. And it stands to reason that more TB blood might produce a more TB ride.

John Madden likes a TB type horse with good feet, blood horses with a lot of energy that are light on their feet, and just what do you think “blood horses” means exactly?[/QUOTE]

I bashed you in the beginning because you speculated about what type of ride Beezie might like without ever speaking to her.

And again…you continue to speculate about " TB type horses having good feet ,being blood horses and being light on their feet" Todays top showjumpers are almost all like this Viney !

My own horses here and in Germany are ALL like this…they have great feet , enough blood and I promise you they are light on their feet !

Like I said earlier…you see a couple xx’s in the pedigree and you are hell bent to give the TB all the credit. Have you looked at Authentics pedigree ? There are two TB Stallions…STALLIONS…in his motherline. TWO STALLIONS…not a family of TB’s and not a TB motherline.

Sp please…don’t quote to us about what type horse the Maddens want…all riders want a horse like that for today’s top showjumping.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=andy.smaga;7633993]
Elles, please don’t believe everything on Horsetelex…
I checked the first link you submit and the horse is a 140 horse not a 160 (huge difference)
Official data can be found here: https://ffecompet.ffe.com/cheval#id=66aeba2742c802a99baecf9681caf06a
Click on the green button.

second link is a horse doing mainly 130-140 (check USEF data)

third link is a horse who participated in one only 160 and didn’t place

I stop here, because I’m sure there is one real French Anglo Arab doing 160, but exceptions is not what we are looking at.[/QUOTE]

I’ve been telling them this for a week Andy…they don’t listen.

[vineyridge]

No, Bayhawk, I had read several times in past Chronicle articles what kind of ride she likes. Back when they had went to Keeneland and bought three TB yearlings to bring along, it was published that Beezie likes the TB ride.

I fail to see why quoting John Madden on what he looks for when buying young horses is speculation.

[vineyridge]

Andy, if it weren’t for exceptions, you wouldn’t have had Jappeloup or Galoubet A.
And Galoubet A would never have been used as a breeding horse.

[zipperfoot]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;7634152]
I bashed you in the beginning because you speculated about what type of ride Beezie might like without ever speaking to her.

And again…you continue to speculate about " TB type horses having good feet ,being blood horses and being light on their feet" Todays top showjumpers are almost all like this Viney !

My own horses here and in Germany are ALL like this…they have great feet , enough blood and I promise you they are light on their feet !

Like I said earlier…you see a couple xx’s in the pedigree and you are hell bent to give the TB all the credit. Have you looked at Authentics pedigree ? There are two TB Stallions…STALLIONS…in his motherline. TWO STALLIONS…not a family of TB’s and not a TB motherline.

Sp please…don’t quote to us about what type horse the Maddens want…all riders want a horse like that for today’s top showjumping.[/QUOTE]

OK I’m confused–so now we’re just talking about motherlines?

Actually, on the dam side of Authentic’s pedigree, 3 generations back 3 of the 4 horses are TB.

Finally, when a horse is nearly 73% TB, I tend to believe that its characteristics can be attributed to that, rather than whatever assorted horses made up the other 27%.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7634171]
No, Bayhawk, I had read several times in past Chronicle articles what kind of ride she likes. Back when they had went to Keeneland and bought three TB yearlings to bring along, it was published that Beezie likes the TB ride.[/QUOTE]

Again…you"read" that she likes a TB type ride . I can buy that. Did the COTH interview reveal that straight Tb’s generally don’t have the power and scope she likes as well ? No , of course it didn’t…

I have spoken personally with Beezie several times. You ought to try this concept Viney…it’s amazing what you will learn.

[Jackie_Cochran]

I have no proof for the following statements. Just my observations.

Properly selected Arab, Barb, and Turkomen stallions are effective at providing SOME riding qualities (you don’t go to a Turkoman or Barb if you want the supreme mobitity of the neck/jaw juncture (called the “mitbah”), you don’t go to an “pure as driven snow” Arabian for the Turkoman sweeping stride [though you can try a Muniqi, an Arab strain that probably has Turkoman blood].) The genes of these properly selected horses tend to BLEND well with the genetic codes of other equine genetic lines. They add riding qualities more WITHIN the conformations of the native mare lines than the TB (of course there are exceptions, hey, this is horse breeding!) They do add REFINEMENT, but again withing the native mare line’s conformation. Very, very, very few F1 Arab crosses have the “mitbah” of the pure Arab, but the Arab blood refines the “mitbah” area. I have owned a 7/8 Arab mare that did not have the true “mitbah” as my “pure as driven snow” Arab mare. In fact many of the registered pure Arabs I’ve known often have great refinement in the “mitbah” area, but DO NOT have exactly the same jaw bone alignment as the “mitbah” in the “pure as driven snow” Arabians. This refinement often tends to breed on, but diminishes a little each generation away from the pure blood.

The great modern TB sires, on the other hand, are often PREPOTENT because they have been selected for prepotency as well as speed (mare owners voting with their wallets.) IF the native mare lines are of a conformation that blends well with the TB stallion’s type/genes everyone is happy. However, if the native mare line has a prized trait that is not in the TBs genetic code there is a good chance that the F1 foal does not exhibit the prized trait of the native mare line. If the breeders insist on keeping this prized trait of their native mare lines, they have to breed away from the TB genes that forcibly stamped refinement onto the native mare line. Thus, eventually, the original type of the mare line asserts itself, with all the traits that the breeders were using the TB to improve the rideability of their horses disappearing.

I am sure a lot of people will disagree with me. I have a lot more to say about this, but I am tired, I’ll get to it later if I think it will add to the discussion.

[vineyridge]

It’s bad manners to speak to people you have never been properly introduced to. It’s pushy and rude. I would never try to “speak” to a famous rider.

We’ll just have to wait and see how their TB experiment pans out.

[NoDQhere]

I think that by now we are all “properly” educated and understand that Bayhawk has the most wonderful horses in the whole wide world. But personally, I find the rude, nasty comments directed towards other posters like Vineyridge appalling and totally unnecessary to this discussion. I bet I am not the only one reluctant to post for fear of incurring the wrath!

For the record I am not a TB “whatever”. There isn’t a single TB on this farm. But I do have a PHD from the “School of Hard Knocks” and have learned that the words “NEVER” and “ALWAYS” should not be used when discussing horse breeding. When one closes ones mind one shuts out opportunity!

[omare]

Well obviously if it was “only” about the jump we could be breeding mules to fulfill our passion (but of course one cannot breed generationally :-)) Not sure where mules get ther jump but I understood they were excluded from showjumping because of this extreme talent.

Radar the champion jumping mule

https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10151508670435817