TB kills the jump?

[NoDQhere]

[QUOTE=omare;7634223]
Well obviously if it was “only” about the jump we could be breeding mules to fulfill our passion (but of course one cannot breed generationally :-)) Not sure where mules get ther jump but I understood they were excluded from showjumping because of this extreme talent.

Radar the champion jumping mule

https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10151508670435817[/QUOTE]

Yes, they can “coon jump” really high. Getting them to jump like a horse is a challenge, though :). I think Radar is an Appaloosa cross mule, too, so Appys must not be jump killers!

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7634200]
It’s bad manners to speak to people you have never been properly introduced to. It’s pushy and rude. I would never try to “speak” to a famous rider.

We’ll just have to wait and see how their TB experiment pans out.[/QUOTE]

Wow…you’ve never walked up to someone ,stuck out your hand and said my name is so and so , I’m a fan and it’s nice to meet you ?

No wonder you don’t have any real first hand knowledge or connections.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=NoDQhere;7634216]
I think that by now we are all “properly” educated and understand that Bayhawk has the most wonderful horses in the whole wide world. But personally, I find the rude, nasty comments directed towards other posters like Vineyridge appalling and totally unnecessary to this discussion. I bet I am not the only one reluctant to post for fear of incurring the wrath!

For the record I am not a TB “whatever”. There isn’t a single TB on this farm. But I do have a PHD from the “School of Hard Knocks” and have learned that the words “NEVER” and “ALWAYS” should not be used when discussing horse breeding. When one closes ones mind one shuts out opportunity![/QUOTE]

It’s not about my horses…my chosen breed or anything else. It’s about people thinking they know it all and making statements that are not accurate.

[elizabeth_Callahan]

Actually,
I think there was a mule this year who did have a foal. There have been 1 or 2 others who have as well. So you could breed generationally…

[Derid]

"“Magic mirror on the wall, who is the fairest one of all?” - The Queen (Lucille La Verne), Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs (1937)

[alto]

[QUOTE=elizabeth Callahan;7634290]
Actually,
I think there was a mule this year who did have a foal. There have been 1 or 2 others who have as well. So you could breed generationally…[/QUOTE]

Yes, there are always exceptions, but if you collected 10 mules “mares” that you liked the bloodlines & physical qualities of, chances are you would still have no foals after 10 years of breeding attempts UNLESS you got lucky :winkgrin:

I’ve not looked at the fertility profiles on those offspring from mule “mollies” (not sure they even exist), but suspect again that your chances of getting what you want from the very few possible resulting foals would be your next major hurdle.
It seems that most of the “known” mule offspring were sired by jacks (living in mixed herds), so this process may become even less likely with horse sires & AI techniques.

[D_BaldStockings]

If Tb’s kill the jump, why are WB’s linebred to TB sires.

-That would be the common ancestors as shown on horsetelex, etc.

Most breeding recommendations are that one linebreed to outstanding individuals through their best offspring, and that one minimize or not double up on faulty individuals…

it is thought that linebreeding increases the genetic contribution from the doubled ancestors.

Have at it.

[ladyj79]

Read the last 50 pages :). I promise the question has been answered repeatedly, regardless of whether you accept or reject it.

[Elles]

Talking about linebreeding:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10419280&blood=10&quota=
25% Caletto and 10.9% Cottage Son xx
Caletto: 8.6% Heintze, 6.3% Son in Law xx
Heintze: 25% Ethelbert 12.9 Hannibal
Ethelbert: 12.5% Sir Hercules xx 9.7% Herod xx
Hannibal: 31.3% Burlington Turk 81 (50% TB), 17.2% Newton Mare

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=ladyj79;7634464]
Read the last 50 pages :). I promise the question has been answered repeatedly, regardless of whether you accept or reject it.[/QUOTE]

Considering who is posting, I have to disagree with this post.

It’ll be interesting to see if PNWJumper’s Holsteiner goes as far as her TB. Before this thread I didn’t know she’d even been contemplating a WC qualifier with him.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=omare;7634223]
Well obviously if it was “only” about the jump we could be breeding mules to fulfill our passion (but of course one cannot breed generationally :-)) Not sure where mules get ther jump but I understood they were excluded from showjumping because of this extreme talent.

Radar the champion jumping mule

https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10151508670435817[/QUOTE]

That’s just a vertical though.

[omare]

“That’s just a vertical though.”

but I understand hunting mules can jump one line of barb wire in the moonlight-just think of the new course design opportunities.

[andy.smaga]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7634174]
Andy, if it weren’t for exceptions, you wouldn’t have had Jappeloup or Galoubet A.
And Galoubet A would never have been used as a breeding horse.[/QUOTE]
I don’t discount exceptions but from the breeder point of view it’s not a safe route to breed for the top of the sport (show jumpers)
Jappeloup was atop performer but probably not a good producer if he wasn’t gelded when young.
Galoubet A was refused by the SF studbook officials at his approval (they aren’t clever than most other SB’s officials… but Galoubet was in the radar of all french breeders (too bad he went to your side of the pond and his semen couldn’t be used frozen, some french breeders accepted to pay for refrigerated semen and get Baloubet du Rouet and some other top competitors).

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7634615]
Considering who is posting, I have to disagree with this post.

It’ll be interesting to see if PNWJumper’s Holsteiner goes as far as her TB. Before this thread I didn’t know she’d even been contemplating a WC qualifier with him.[/QUOTE]

You would dis-agree if someone said the grass was green and the sky was blue.

As usual , you have no idea what you are talking about. If you did…you would know that PNWJumper has more than 1 Holsteiner and last time I checked…she didn’t need to consult with you on whether she was “contemplating” an attempt with her TB at the WC Qualifier or not.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=omare;7634658]
“That’s just a vertical though.”

but I understand hunting mules can jump one line of barb wire in the moonlight-just think of the new course design opportunities.[/QUOTE]

Great, but do they have scope and rideability for show jumping?

I haven’t actually seen one but I know there are mule jumping competitions held at Mule Days in nearby Benson. I think they are held at the Hunt Horse Complex in Raleigh too.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=andy.smaga;7634659]
I don’t discount exceptions but from the breeder point of view it’s not a safe route to breed for the top of the sport (show jumpers)
Jappeloup was atop performer but probably not a good producer if he wasn’t gelded when young.
Galoubet A was refused by the SF studbook officials at his approval (they aren’t clever than most other SB’s officials… but Galoubet was in the radar of all french breeders (too bad he went to your side of the pond and his semen couldn’t be used frozen, some french breeders accepted to pay for refrigerated semen and get Baloubet du Rouet and some other top competitors).[/QUOTE]

Why do you think Jappeloup wouldn’t have been a good producer? His size and/or some aspects of his conformation?

[omare]

Rideability is not an issue with mules-you do not have to worry about finding your distance as they jump from a standstill-it would really open up the Olympic sports for ammies.

[ponygirl]

I am hesitant to post but am doing so regardless. I do know of purpose bred TB mares. Here is a pedigree to one : Coconut Grove/Final Pool/And Behold. Both sire and dam sire jumped ISH. Dam of this mare jumped L7 until a pasture injury which deemed her pasture sound. The dam has progeny that jumped in sport and it’s a direct line that has been used in Germany as well. This mare in question is not being bred to a TB, but to WBs. Why? We are realistic and know that putting her to a sire such as Kannan will bring the power that is needed and more than likely cannot be attained by using a TB. Do TBs have their place? I believe that the right ones do, but they are not what is needed in the the crossing on this mare. It’s the finding of the right ones that is elusive it seems.

I have a mare, whom I bred, by Coconut Grove and out of a German Holsteiner mare and she is 73% blood. My trainer has likened her to one of his former GP mounts. Her dam sire also jumped 1.60 but when I bred this mare at the age of three, I chose a Capitol lined Holsteiner stallion to infuse power into the pedigree of the resulting offspring. I was hedging my bets in this cross and the result will hopefully justify my decision. The foal who is now three, is being backed and shows a lot of promise. It’s hard enough to sell jumpers in the US, and when you are a very small breeder it’s harder, regardless of what is in your barn.

There was one NA based TB stallion that was of interest but he’s retired. He was not of interest for either of the mares by the TB sire but my big Capitol lined German Holsteiner mare. I frequent KY a few times a year and some of the stallions there might well have what is desired by the big EU registries but they will never get a shot at them unless they were to gamble big money on house odds. They are not fools.

[elizabeth_Callahan]

[QUOTE=alto;7634428]
Yes, there are always exceptions, but if you collected 10 mules “mares” that you liked the bloodlines & physical qualities of, chances are you would still have no foals after 10 years of breeding attempts UNLESS you got lucky :winkgrin:

I’ve not looked at the fertility profiles on those offspring from mule “mollies” (not sure they even exist), but suspect again that your chances of getting what you want from the very few possible resulting foals would be your next major hurdle.
It seems that most of the “known” mule offspring were sired by jacks (living in mixed herds), so this process may become even less likely with horse sires & AI techniques.[/QUOTE]

Yes, but as much as we want it to be a science, breeding is pretty much a crapshoot in the end. We all need a little luck…

[andy.smaga]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7634717]
Why do you think Jappeloup wouldn’t have been a good producer? His size and/or some aspects of his conformation?[/QUOTE]
The main reason is that his maternal family never produced a quality show jumper except Jappeloup himself. (again don’t look at horsetelex they show ZAITA DE PETRA as a 160, when she is essentially an eventer with not much performance)