But it also depends on the fact if the horses were also really tried at jumping. At one point some horses get really tried by good riders and others do not. Nowadays everyone who is very serious at getting to the highest levels jumps on the same bandwagon. I can understand this because of all the money and time involved. But about a lot of other horses / bloodlines we will no longer really be finding out if they have it in them or not. There are no so many good riders that can bring a horse to the 1.60 m level. Everybody wants to play it safe, I understand that but in the end what will we have left? Like within the TB mostly the Northern Dancer and Mr Prospector lines of warmblood breeding?
I love this mare - super technique, careful but not TOO careful, elastic stride and looks very nice in the mouth (I am not a fan of horses that are difficult in the mouth as I find that can spoil a good trip in unfortunate places) Just wonderful. 
Only 1.40 meter and not 1.60? One look at her linebreeding in her last 9 generations says a lot, thoroughbreds. 12.5% Cor de la Bryere, 9.4% Landgraf, 8.6% Cottage Son xx, 7.8% Ladykiller xx and 7.8% Ramzes.
Cor de la Bryere: 6.3% Son in Law xx, 4.7% Rabelais xx. Landgraf: 7.4% St. Simon xx.
[QUOTE=andy.smaga;7635055]
The main reason is that his maternal family never produced a quality show jumper except Jappeloup himself. (again don’t look at horsetelex they show ZAITA DE PETRA as a 160, when she is essentially an eventer with not much performance)[/QUOTE]
So she’s not the one mentioned in this link, ridden by the Brazilian Pedro Lacerda? That’s a different horse? http://fei.org/news/fei-world-cup-jumping-update
In addition, how much was the maternal family bred for jumping? Looks like Sidi Ghiles was a racehorse, unless all breed pedigree is wrong.
GAP, it’s the same horse apparently, but the French database probably don’t take in account the South American (southern part) World Cup qualifiers…
Zaita was born in 1991 and have data in France for 1998 and 1999 and then certainly exported to Brazil to have the result in the WC qualifier in 2006.
I was thinking about the TB open jumpers way back when in the USA.
When the US Olympic Equestrian Team was CAVALRY, all the team jumpers were trained in the Fort Riley Seat (Caprilli-position, Saumur-ideas about the progression of schooling.) The non-TB winning open jumpers in the regular horse shows were trained anyway their riders knew how, often with no rhyme or reason. They often beat the properly trained TBs in the open jumping classes long ago.
Could it be that the TBs jump better with the Forward Seat, Forward Control, and Forward Schooling? Could it be that today’s emphasis on training jumpers with Dressage (teaching collection) takes the jump out of the TB since the horses are not taught or allowed to use their head and necks effectively? According to the Cavalry Manual the Fort Riley Seat only trained up to the shoulder-in and Chamberlin specified that the horse was not to be collected while doing the shoulder-in. He wrote that if a cavalry man wanted to do dressage including collection he would have to get seperate training (and work hard at it.)
Could it be that TBs would get back to jumping properly again if their training metods were changed?
One lesson with Kay Russel (North Fork School of Equitation, Forward Seat) I watched her school a teenage boy on his TB mare for his next open jumping class. Watching this I had a revelation, and when I asked Kay about this she said I was right–my revelation? That you have to spend as many years training a good open jumper as you do a competitive dressage horse, around 5 years (back then we did not have anywhere the number of dressage shows as now, riders might train their horses for years without showing. ) You have to get as precise, as finicky, and compulsive of riding RIGHT as if you were training for dressage when you train for competitive jumping.
So while SOME TBs may have an inherited “jump” (and they have, at least in the past), most TBs, expecially nowadays, may need to have the proper TRAINING to learn how to use their bodies effectively enough to jump high. THIS CAN BE DONE, or else Huaso would not have been able to jump 2.47 meters even if he had the inherited “TB jump” that tends to top off around 6 feet (1.83 meters?) or so in the talented TB jumpers without specific training and conditioning (flinging themselves over the jump.)
Of course this does absolutely nothing for WB breeders who want a TB with their mare line’s type of jump, training is not inheritable. However the sheet athletic ability of the TB can be, luckily for the WB breeders. Too bad TB kills/harms the WB jump. To me, as a student of horses, this sounds like a tragedy for the ages.
The WB breeders are right about protecting their mare lines. They can take comfort in the fact that the TB outcrosses probably give their mare lines the TB athleticism so the F2s can jump even higher and wider.
Has ANYONE trained a F1 TB/Holstein horse that does not have “the jump” by Forward Seat or Fort Riley methods? You might be surprised by the results, maybe not as good as the F2 but still extremely acceptable. Your horses have so much TB, so much GOOD TB, the F1s should train just about as well with the FS/Ft.Riley methods as a modern TB. A good rider should be able to do it.
Jackie Cochran, that’s interesting speculation, but where are the trainers today who have any idea about how the cavalries went about their training? The vast majority of US sport horses are already started and trained overseas.
It is a while ago but these F1 horses did alright: http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/111915
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/69898
Anthony’s Dream is a TB: http://www.werner-muff.com/index.php?p=59 (F2)
Other F2 (warning, I did not check the info):
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/236872
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/32016
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/259569
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/206929
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/354774
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/97951
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/7941
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/476960
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/49063
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/196832
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/354166
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/1393
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/252664
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/449888
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/3639
Some ability seems to come out of this TB mare line:
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/progeny/56796
And this horse also goes tail female to a TB mare:
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/86165
For that matter so was Melanie Smith’s Calypso. But that was long ago, and courses have changed a lot since then.
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/5031
Forward Seat/Ft. Riley Seat
[QUOTE=vineyridge;7636022]
Jackie Cochran, that’s interesting speculation, but where are the trainers today who have any idea about how the cavalries went about their training? The vast majority of US sport horses are already started and trained overseas.[/QUOTE]
Hi vineyridge,
The present day system is called “The American Forward Riding System.” You can find out more about it on the website http://anrc.org. They have programs to certify riders and riding teachers, and a series of videos about the American Forward Riding System.
The “big name riders” presently alive are Bernie Taureg and Paul Cronin.
By the way, after all the talk about marelines, this is one of the best Dutch marelines for jumping: http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/progeny/44350
http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/progeny/22953
[QUOTE=ladyj79;7631951]
Go do the research. Pour through books, inquire with registries and breeders and riders. But do try to be more humble and respectful than you have been throughout this thread. If you want information, it’s best not to be so rude and dismissive: it’s extremely off-putting and counterproductive if you are honestly seeking knowledge. To speak only for myself, however, you come off not as interested in educating yourself, but in trying to insult and argue with other people.[/QUOTE]
Oh, the irony… is just unbelievable. (This is not directed at you personally, ladyj79.)
[QUOTE=EventerAJ;7626899]
Thank you. This is the pedigree of my retired upper level mare whom I bred: http://www.pedigreequery.com/arctic+morning
Conformation pic
XC pic, SJ pic[/QUOTE]
She looked spectacular over those jumps! Beautiful!
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7638853]
She looked spectacular over those jumps! Beautiful![/QUOTE]
Thanks. “Knees up, ears up, with air to spare” is her average jump. She rarely ever took a bad photo-- I was the one who screwed them up with poor form!
Making big tables feel small
SJ at Radnor CCI2* (not at all tired)
XC video
SJ video
I really, really hope she passes her jump on.
Wonderful mare!
[QUOTE=EventerAJ;7639307]
Thanks. “Knees up, ears up, with air to spare” is her average jump. She rarely ever took a bad photo-- I was the one who screwed them up with poor form!
Making big tables feel small
SJ at Radnor CCI2* (not at all tired)
XC video
SJ video
I really, really hope she passes her jump on. :)[/QUOTE]
Very nice mare!
Thanks for posting.
Originally Posted by ladyj79
Go do the research. Pour through books, inquire with registries and breeders and riders. But do try to be more humble and respectful than you have been throughout this thread. If you want information, it’s best not to be so rude and dismissive: it’s extremely off-putting and counterproductive if you are honestly seeking knowledge. To speak only for myself, however, you come off not as interested in educating yourself, but in trying to insult and argue with other people.
Oh, the irony… is just unbelievable. (This is not directed at you personally, ladyj79.)
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7638837]
Oh, the irony… is just unbelievable. (This is not directed at you personally, ladyj79.)[/QUOTE]
I believe that advice from ladyj79 was directed at me, originally. So no others need become concerned by the post.
You’re all good!
Personal attacks get sooo boring. Lets talk about BREEDING.
Have any of you WB breeders/admirers heard about Arabian strain breeding? This was a hypothesis that Carl Raswan made after actually living with the high caste Arab horse breeders, in the desert, on camel and horse, in the tents.
Raswan (and ALL the other authorities that went to the desert tribes) describes the different strains, the mare lines. They all describe different type of conformation horses that make up these strains. The top breeding decision was purity of blood, then type entered the picture.
Raswan’s hypothesis was that there were 3 main types of Arabs. Kuhaylan (think morgan), Seglawi (sort of ASBish) and Muniqi (more like a TB.) These main groups had sub strains, like the Kuhaylan group Hamdani and Hadban. The fact that the Arab had all these different types of conformation is the reason that a properly selected Arab can improve a non-hot blood breed dramatically, an improvement that tends to show up immediately and gradually declines through the generations. The proper Arab stallion often has some resemblance to the good points of the native European mares. His genes blend with the basic structure of the native mare lines. (A badly selected Arab stallion just adds refinement, intelligence and endurance, he does not “improve” a breed as a riding animal as much as a properly selected stallion would.)
However, often (not always, this is horse breeding) if you cross two pure Arabs of disimilar type you have a chance of producing a horse that is not as “harmonious” of conformation as either parent. Remember, to the Bedouin all that mattered was purity of blood, not conformation. So long as the mare successfully survived the 50% death rate of Arabs in the desert by age 4 or 5, was pure or reasonably pure (sort of a caste system for Arab horses), rideable as a war mare, and proven tough enough to survive the desert she had chances to breed on. Most of the colts got sold off and ended up in India, Europe (Eastern & Western, different importations,) and the pure fillies were kept as future war mares. The Bedouin kept strict oral records about the purity of their mares and stallions (often of "she is of such & such strain bred by this person, and her sire was of whatever strain with his breeder.) The dam of the dam may get mentioned, especially if she were of reknown as a war mare.
I think that part of your problems with keeping “the jump” in the F1 generation is that the basic type and conformation that provides “the jump” is over-ridden by the TB type and conformation. I suspect it is in the shoulder/upper arm/lower arm and hip/thigh joints (the ones we can’t see very well,) But I KNOW it is there, I really doubt that there has been any TB in the history of the breed that trotted like your horses. If they had there would have been drooling references to the magnificent steeds. Since the trot is SO different it is caused by conformation, so I see no reason to think that the Holstein jump NEEDS some aspect of Holstein conformation that the TB, with differently arranged leg assemblies, just wipes out.
At least that is my initial educated guess.
I’m confused. Jackie are you saying that TBs don’t have high knee action?
