TB kills the jump?

[Jackie_Cochran]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7641061]
I’m confused. Jackie are you saying that TBs don’t have high knee action?[/QUOTE]

The TB has never been selected and BRED for high knee action. Early on foundation stock of the TB did not interfere as much with high knee action (TB outcrosses were used to create the Hackney, Morgan, Standardbred, Yorkshire Trotters and Cleveland Bay breeds) but they did not add to the high knee action as such. As far as I know none of the above breeds kept on adding TB blood like the WB breeders have for the last century.

The only horses I’ve seen (in person or on videos) who, trotting loose, have the same type of trot of the WB is the American Saddlebred, a breed who has avoided direct TB crosses in spite of being developed in the center of American TB breeding, Kentucky. This is why I recommended them many, many pages ago as a possible refining outcross that possibly would not kill the WB jump, though they could add many conformational faults that the WB breeders have successfully removed from their mare lines.

In preparation to getting the books on the Holsteiner I am re-reading “Points of the Horse” by M. Horace Hayes since he often compares the differences between the conformation of the TB, hunter, light draft/carriage horses, heavy vanners and draft horses. One comment he made was that if a TB colt in Great Britain was not good enough to win on the flat he was GELDED and turned into a steeplechase horse or hunter. There were some exceptions, the Man O’War son Battleship (who won the Grand National steeplechase in England) remained a stallion and bred on. I do not know how successfully Battleship bred on, just that he did.

I am getting the impression from my research that the WB trot and the WB jump come from the European native mare lines ONLY. The TBs and other hot bloods added riding qualities, speed, stamina, refinement, athletic ability, and the TB adds heighth, but the modern TB genome does not necessarily add anything to the WB trot or WB jump. Since the TB in part descended from the native British horses (Galloways especially, bred for speed in Great Britain long, long ago) there MAY still be genes of the native European horse “jump” and trot in the TB genetic code, but since it does not seem to add to TB speed on the flat it has not been bred for and most of the colts showing any sign of this ability tend to be gelded. Could TB lines be developed that did not “kill the jump”? MAYBE. Is anyone going to pour a lot of money and time into developing these TB lines that can’t win the big pursed flat races? Probably not. It would probably take the assets of a billionaire to succeed, and I don’t see many of the present day billionaires stepping up to do so. (Bill Gates daughter has gotten into riding, maybe WB breeders should talk to her about doing this breeding project.)

[Elles]

But the TB Hopalong Cassidy xx was able to jump like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I70EWXt4rXM
And the TB Roven xx was able to jump like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g_noFGkEU0
A Roven xx offspring: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ENrLFjReFA
This is the TB Favoritas xx: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NcGf5Dw8_E
The TB Albaran xx: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bAuzibWIWs

[Jackie_Cochran]

The horse in the “A Roven xx offspring” reminded me A LOT of how good Arabs colts/stallions/geldings move when free, the high head carriage, the gaily flagged tail, the trot, the heighth of the action at the trot, the “free play” of the shoulders, the way he played, yes, he reminded me a lot of some of the pure Arabs I’ve seen playing.

Thank you Elles for directing me to that delightful video!

[Jackie_Cochran]

In the last video, when Aldaran does the trot with his neck more vertical his trotting action does get higher, but only in the front.

He reminds me of the old Arabian Park horse classes, when many owners wanted their non-high action Arabs to be high stepping Park horses. Their trainers, riding saddle seat, borrowed many successful tricks of the trade from Saddlebred trainers to get a higher action in the front. These horses had just about the same trot as Aldaran, as they got faster and higher the trot diagonals would start disassociating. The rear action NEVER matched the action of the forelegs (heighth, proper bend) and at times their the leg action looks like an easy gait, not a trot.

Later on in the video Aldaran trots with his head further down and has no problem keeping his trot diagonals properly synchronized. The heighth of his forearm is also a lot lower.

I noticed in the jumping videos that the TBs &/or their riders were keeping the horse’s head UP, way higher than normal TB head carriage. Could it be that a minimum requirement for a TB outcross should be reliable high head carriage?

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;7641880]
The horse in the “A Roven xx offspring” reminded me A LOT of how good Arabs colts/stallions/geldings move when free, the high head carriage, the gaily flagged tail, the trot, the heighth of the action at the trot, the “free play” of the shoulders, the way he played, yes, he reminded me a lot of some of the pure Arab I’ve seen playing.

Thank you Elles for directing me to that delightful video![/QUOTE]

I don’t understand why you have concluded that knee action is necessary for the WB jump. If you conclude that the ASB has the same sort of knee action, why have ASBs NEVER found themselves jumping the big sticks, even back in the day when Dr. Birdsall was doing his pedigree research on Hunters and Jumpers in North America. Trotters of the Standardbred variety have done quite well in jumping pedigrees, and they are not noted for up and down knee action. Halla was 3/4 trotter blood; others have already been named in this thread.

[omare]

From one that is a TB lover these examples to me do not ooze scope and the canters are not that great on them. I think the world of showjumping has gotten so specialized you need what those horses have but much more: you need the blood and scope and canter.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;7641451]
The TB has never been selected and BRED for high knee action. Early on foundation stock of the TB did not interfere as much with high knee action (TB outcrosses were used to create the Hackney, Morgan, Standardbred, Yorkshire Trotters and Cleveland Bay breeds) but they did not add to the high knee action as such. As far as I know none of the above breeds kept on adding TB blood like the WB breeders have for the last century.

The only horses I’ve seen (in person or on videos) who, trotting loose, have the same type of trot of the WB is the American Saddlebred, a breed who has avoided direct TB crosses in spite of being developed in the center of American TB breeding, Kentucky. This is why I recommended them many, many pages ago as a possible refining outcross that possibly would not kill the WB jump, though they could add many conformational faults that the WB breeders have successfully removed from their mare lines.

In preparation to getting the books on the Holsteiner I am re-reading “Points of the Horse” by M. Horace Hayes since he often compares the differences between the conformation of the TB, hunter, light draft/carriage horses, heavy vanners and draft horses. One comment he made was that if a TB colt in Great Britain was not good enough to win on the flat he was GELDED and turned into a steeplechase horse or hunter. There were some exceptions, the Man O’War son Battleship (who won the Grand National steeplechase in England) remained a stallion and bred on. I do not know how successfully Battleship bred on, just that he did.

I am getting the impression from my research that the WB trot and the WB jump come from the European native mare lines ONLY. The TBs and other hot bloods added riding qualities, speed, stamina, refinement, athletic ability, and the TB adds heighth, but the modern TB genome does not necessarily add anything to the WB trot or WB jump. Since the TB in part descended from the native British horses (Galloways especially, bred for speed in Great Britain long, long ago) there MAY still be genes of the native European horse “jump” and trot in the TB genetic code, but since it does not seem to add to TB speed on the flat it has not been bred for and most of the colts showing any sign of this ability tend to be gelded. Could TB lines be developed that did not “kill the jump”? MAYBE. Is anyone going to pour a lot of money and time into developing these TB lines that can’t win the big pursed flat races? Probably not. It would probably take the assets of a billionaire to succeed, and I don’t see many of the present day billionaires stepping up to do so. (Bill Gates daughter has gotten into riding, maybe WB breeders should talk to her about doing this breeding project.)[/QUOTE]

That’s an awful lot of conjecture. Besides, I even disagree with the premise that Tbs “kill the jump”. Ladykiller and Cor de la Bryere introduced the bascule and tight knees prized by Holsteiner breeders today. Perhaps you have a mistaken notion that Tbs are all flat jumpers?

Warmbloods can jump because they were selected for a certain muscle and skeletal type. That type exists in both modern warmbloods and TBs.

I’ve seen a number of Tbs with high (although not exaggerated) knee action and a floating trot. They’re not that unusual. And viney is right, the canter has a lot more to do with jump than the trot does.

[Jackie_Cochran]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7641964]
I don’t understand why you have concluded that knee action is necessary for the WB jump. If you conclude that the ASB has the same sort of knee action, why have ASBs NEVER found themselves jumping the big sticks, even back in the day when Dr. Birdsall was doing his pedigree research on Hunters and Jumpers in North America. Trotters of the Standardbred variety have done quite well in jumping pedigrees, and they are not noted for up and down knee action. Halla was 3/4 trotter blood; others have already been named in this thread.[/QUOTE]

I apologize Vineyridge, for not making myself clearer. I consider the WB trot and the WB jump different genetic traits. I think the WB trot shows “in movement” some of the conformational differences between the WB and TB. Other, additional conformational differences are probably needed for the WB jump, possibly in the hind end. I have MS and I find it very difficult to follow the movement on video, I talk about the trot and forehand first because the difference is so blatant. It will take me a long time to figure out the differences in the hind quarters. They are much more subtle but they are there. Different movement comes from different conformation and build.

Trotters tend to show the greatest elevation of the forearm at racing speeds, though I remember seeing a video of the great trotter Greyhound frolicking in the pasture, all trot, all high, elastic, and ground covering. When I am talking about the high trot I am not talking about the “trappy” up and down action like a lot of Morgans, I am talking about a high action trot where the horse SPRINGS from one diagonal to the next, a “light, airy trot.” ASBs show this trot when trotting free, but usually NOT when under saddle with a saddle seat rider.

I will try to track down the claim of an ASB successfully competing in jumping. If I remember right I first read about this horse in one of Margaret Cabell Self’s books when she was discussing the horses she had in her hunt seat lesson program, and I vaguely remember another reference to this horse but I cannot remember where I read it. ASBs can be used for just about anything an American horse does, it is just that the Saddlebred show horses are & were so valuable that the ones who don’t make it back then were just sold off and the hunter/jumper people rarely went after them. Thoroughbreds back then were reasonably plentiful for people with enough money, no reason to go to an “off” breed that would stand out in the hunt field or the hunt seat show ring.

I boarded for years at some TB leaning hunt seat stables, including one that had extensive pastures and kept most of their horses out 24/7. I’ve seen quite a few TBs trotting free in the field. The ones I’ve seen in the past just did not come up with a trot like some videos I’ve seen of loose WBs. They didn’t come up with the Arab “floating trot” either. What they produced was a lower trot without a lot of “wasted action” or particular springiness, but elastic and extendable under a good rider. They also did not tend to “flag their tails” unless they were super excited or in a sexual mode (geldings can get excited over mares even if they lack some of the equipment.) In one pasture the horses, mainly TB, would gallop fast once a day down to the pond. My Arab colt was in this pasture and he was the only one with a “flagged” tail during the race down to the water. He also had a MUCH shorter stride at the gallop.

[Elles]

This horse is by a TB sire:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoVyEy48jt8

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=omare;7641999]
From one that is a TB lover these examples to me do not ooze scope and the canters are not that great on them. I think the world of showjumping has gotten so specialized you need what those horses have but much more: you need the blood and scope and canter.[/QUOTE]

I’m confused by this post also. I just looked at the Favoritas and Roven videos and thought they looked great. Roven made 1.4 look like a walk in the park and did it in beautiful form too.

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;7641451]

The only horses I’ve seen (in person or on videos) who, trotting loose, have the same type of trot of the WB is the American Saddlebred, [/QUOTE]

[omare]

1.4m is 4"6- 4’7 which is what is the height set for high A/O jumper. Favoritas is by far the most talented.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=omare;7642312]
1.4m is 4"6- 4’7 which is what is the height set for high A/O jumper. Favoritas is by far the most talented.[/QUOTE]

Right. And Roven made it look effortless.

[D_BaldStockings]

off topic slightly, but in response to the Saddlebred comments:
Stonewall’s Little General Jumped 6’+ in Open Puissance way back in the 1960’s w/ his ammy owner/trainer. Did not go to Madison Square Garden that year due to a tie decided by aa coin toss.

There are quite a few TB’s up until about 1900-1910 used in the Saddlebred, mostly mares; and the lines have come down today.

As to jump and ‘action’, jump comes from the HQ and the power there transmitted through the loin, so not sure why knee action is here or there.

[omare]

And 1.4m was where he topped out apparently. There are horses that can jump 1.4m effortlessly but they cannot jump a 1.5 m course.
(FWIW it seems the Russian bred Tb and trakehners seem to have retained more jump or at least are put regularly into the UL jumper ring.)

[Elles]

This farm has horses out of TB mares:
http://www.youtube.com/user/moskifarm

DANTEE v/d Moskifarm (2009) Approved Stallion 60 %XX Approved Stallion Showjumper 5 Years
(Doree x Contact x Persian Jay XX)

DOOFICE v/d Moskifarm (2009) Approved Stallion 76%XX Approved Stallion Showjumper (5years)
(DOREE x ABBEYS GREY XX x HOT SPARK XX x CONNAUGHT XX)

FAZOE van de Moskifarm (2011) STALLION 76% XX
(Doree x Is It SafeXX x ShabernackXX)

GUMMY van de Moskifarm (2012) STALLION 76% XX COLT born in 2012 Color Bay Out Stallion DOREE v/d Moskifarm & Mare Havens Grey XX

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=omare;7642642]
And 1.4m was where he topped out apparently. There are horses that can jump 1.4m effortlessly but they cannot jump a 1.5 m course.
(FWIW it seems the Russian bred Tb and trakehners seem to have retained more jump or at least are put regularly into the UL jumper ring.)[/QUOTE]

And how do you know that’s as far as he was campaigned versus not being able to go further? To say that he topped out there is just conjecture on your part. Many people don’t even campaign their stallions that far.

I can’t imagine a horse looking that effortless at 1.4m not being able to go further.

Obviously I don’t agree with you on this and we’ll have to leave it at that. Besides, his canter scored an 8 at his stallion testing. Apparently the judges liked it.

http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/6916 (click on the pic icon to get his scores)

[Jackie_Cochran]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;7642502]
off topic slightly, but in response to the Saddlebred comments:
Stonewall’s Little General Jumped 6’+ in Open Puissance way back in the 1960’s w/ his ammy owner/trainer. Did not go to Madison Square Garden that year due to a tie decided by aa coin toss.

There are quite a few TB’s up until about 1900-1910 used in the Saddlebred, mostly mares; and the lines have come down today.

As to jump and ‘action’, jump comes from the HQ and the power there transmitted through the loin, so not sure why knee action is here or there.[/QUOTE]

Thank you! I can stop looking for his name.
In my search I found an American Saddlebred Sport Horse Association at www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.net
There are a few reasons why I thought ASB. This breed produces horses of the required heighth, unlike the Standardbred they have decent canters, they have some refinement and great scope in their movements. I doubt you will find proven breeding stock for jumping, but this breed might actually produce stallions capable of passing the WB performance testing, with proper training of course.

With all I’ve learned about how WBs can beat TBs jumping, this is the American breed I’d look at for developing a sport horse. It is not the ASB’s fault that their owners/trainers/exhibitors do not ride a seat that emphasizes their suitability for other types of performance. Plus they were proven as cavalry mounts in the American Civil War (both armies requisitioned (stole) a lot of Saddlebreds because they were tough enough to survive action in a brutal war, were good enough saddle horses to be cavalry mounts, and they could pull artillery when needed.)

After reading this discussion, if I were miraculously cured and totally healed from my MS and could do the necessary training and jumping, I would no longer look for a TB for an upper level show jumping mount since I would want to win against the WBs. I’d look for a likely ASB first. Yes, it might be a training challenge, but to me that just makes it more fun. I have no doubt that a properly selected and trained ASB could deliver what I want, and I don’t even like the ASB that much.

Guarantee? Of course not, there are NO guarantees in horse breeding. Before I read this discussion I thought a TB was a guarantee of jumping ability as an outcross for ANY breed. Yes, the TB provides riding horse conformation, athleticism and scope. So can the ASB.

[Elles]

I just came across this horse, bred by Tom: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9BR7s7bLRY
I would never think Tom would use that stallion!

[andy.smaga]

Tom was breeding for an eventer and that is what this young horse is doing.