TB kills the jump?

[tom]

Andy is correct.

I have used two TB stallions: Heraldik and Roven. I tried to use Favoritas after he was approved by WSI but the semen could not be shipped – the mares had to be inseminated at the station in Germany. There are over 100 “approved” TB stallions in Ireland but none interest me. If Stan the Man, Laudanum, and Hand in Glove were alive I would use them.

I also have used a number of half-breds including Londonderry, Royaldik, and Asian Tiger m2s. And my first Irish stallion was the Grade A jumper Chairmaker, by Chair Lift xx.

[omare]

Soory–horses look effortless all the time doing 1.4m and cannot do higher. That si there comfort zone.

[Elles]

And you used this TB mare Dainty Woman, you showed me a video of one of her offspring and from the video it looked like a very nice youngster.

[Elles]

I am wrong, it is Danty Woman.
http://www.morningside-stud.com/Danty.html

[Elles]

http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/progeny/366951
http://konidona.com/Budenny/horsejumping.html
http://konidona.com/sales/horseelchizar.html
I am wondering what the pedigrees are of these Russian horses. They do have a lot of TB blood but I do not know the pedigrees.

In Vigo we find quite a lot of trotter blood. In the pedigrees of these trotters there is quite a bit of TB blood to be found.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10334753&blood=10&quota=
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/106699
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/25882
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/WEGanalysisVigo4web.jpg
Ancestors in his third generation:
JALISCO B
SF 75000588W
stallion 1975 brown 1.74m
lic: SF
1.60m sj
XX/OX rate: 63,09%

DIRKA
SF
mare 1969 darkbrown
1.60m sj
Riders: Nelson Pessoa/Xavier Leredde
XX/OX rate: 69,73%

ARTICHAUT
SF 60003401L
stallion 1966 chestnut 1.68m
lic: SF
XX/OX rate: 55,27% (quite a lot of ancestors have not been added to the database)

CARAVELLE
SF 50066111N/Y0855
mare 1968 chestnut
XX/OX rate: 63,09%

IBRAHIM
SF FRA00159000207P
stallion 1952 brown 1.66m
lic: SF
XX/OX rate: 44,53% (quite a lot of ancestors have not been added to the database)

SIRENE
SF
mare 1962 chestnut
XX/OX rate: 60,94%

CHILDEBERT
SF 68601249CSF/
stallion 1968 chestnut 1.71m
lic: BWP
XX/OX rate: 82,42%

QUINTA (QUINTA D’ARSOUILLES)
BWP 056002W00023781
mare 1970 grey
XX/OX rate: 25,00% (dam has not been added to the database)

[vineyridge]

I wonder if the almost complete disappearance of Herod lines and Matchem close up in the modern TB has anything to do with this discussion? We know from US experience that Herod lines (Ksar and Roi Herode) and Matchem lines (MOW) were lines that excelled in jumping in the past. I note that Tom’s mare has double Tourbillon on top. Of course, she also has Bachelor’s Double and Blue Peter and Gold Bridge, all lines famous for jumping sport horses. Those lines are also only available pretty far in the back.

[Jackie_Cochran]

I am sure that the lack of Herod has a great deal to do with the lack of “the jump” in the modern TB. When I was researching Huaso’s mare line there was a lot of Herod/Byerly Turk blood in her.

I think that part of the problem is BEAUTY, especially beautiful heads. I’ve noticed, both through reading and in real life, that people who actually ride for years on fox hunts do.not.like.pretty.horses.as.hunters… At all. The Dillon Arabs I mentioned many, many pages ago were considered UGLY, and Miss Dillon rode her main stallion El Emir on fox hunts, she never seemed to value beauty in Arabian horses and bought a lot of the Crabbet stud discards that did not produce the beauty Crabbet was breeding for, including mares from the original Blunt desert bred imports.

The Herod line TBs were considered coarser and uglier than the Eclipse line TBs. Of course when the TB races went from repeated 4 mile heats to single sprints the “big heart gene” more beautiful Eclipse sire line bred horses started beating the relatively slow maturing Herod line horses, so this incredibly valuable sire line started disappearing from the British/North American racing TBs. Oh, it is still there way, way back in the middle of the pedigree, but there has been a lot of breeding AWAY from the type that the Herod line delivered, fast horses who had stamina and could last at a racing gallop for MILES, over and over again if need be.

I am reading M. Horace Hayes “Points of the Horse”, the fifth edition which was first issued in 1903. He notes that the vast majority of English horses back then, including hunters, did not have much TB blood at all. In fact he seemed to think that TB blood was more of a detriment for a fox-hunter than an asset. Hayes also talked some about the “cleverness” of the non-TB blood English jumping horses/hunters. He seemed to think the only thing the TB blood was good for was riding type and some speed, NOT jumping ability.

He also had a very interesting observation about the breeding of the Standardbred trotting horses, most of them descended in sire line from the TB Messenger through his TB son Mambrino. In 1902 there were only 10 trotters that went faster than 2:06 for a mile, NONE of the dam lines had any TB closer than three generations back, and only one sire of these fast horses had a TB grand-dam. The conclusion of Hayes’ American correspondant was that it was PROVEN that TB blood close up in the Standardbred made the racing trot SLOWER, not faster. Since this was a time in which ANY horse could gain entry into the Standardbred stud book just by trotting a mile in 2:30 or less, the breeders of trotters were at perfect liberty to breed to whatever they wanted to. Through experience they learned to avoid TB blood close in the pedigree. The running conformation DID NOT BLEND WELL with the trotting conformation where speed at a trot was concerned. Considering that back then the Standardbreds raced in multiple one mile heats it does not look like the Standardbred needed TB blood for stamina either.

I suspect that this is also true of “the jump” of the native European mare lines. TB blood made them better riding horses, helped improve many conformation faults and increased scope, but it may not have helped the native European mare line’s “jump” at all.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=omare;7643575]
Soory–horses look effortless all the time doing 1.4m and cannot do higher. That si there comfort zone.[/QUOTE]

Whatever. That doesn’t even make any sense, and you do not know the situation. Many stallions are not even campaigned at all. He scored very well for jumping in his testing.

Número Uno jumped through 1.5m level. Did he top off there? Did Contendro I compete at 1.6m? (Horse telex says 1.2m but I don’t know if that is accurate. He obviously proved himself at his stallion testing and when he did compete and - of most importance - he’s proven himself as a top sire.)

This is a translation of judgement from his stallion testing:

"Performance Ermelo 2002 (short test)
Roven xx is an honest, trustworthy stallion. He has much willingness to work and he works well. The walk is pure and has good scope. The trot has more than sufficient scope. Roven xx has good scope at the canter. He is light on his feet at the canter and has good impulsion, he is well balanced and is good at changes.
As a jumper Roven xx has much to very much take-off. He leaves the ground quickly and jumps back well. Roven xx jumps with good foreleg technique. He bascules well and generally finishes the jump well. He is careful and has much scope. Roven xx has much to very much talent for jumping and he gives his rider a good feeling.
There were no veterinary remarks to be made during the testing period. However, the semen analysis proved that Roven xx’s morphology is not very good, with his 34.4-46.8% he has a negative deviation from the required norm, which is at least 50%.

Racing results: Roven xx is the winner of 3 races (1,400 and 1,600m) in La Plata. His son Repris xx (s Samoan xx) is the champion of Chili.

Performance results Walk 7.5
Trot 7
Canter 8
Subtotal dressage 0.0
Ranking dressage 0
Take off 8.5
Technique 8
Scope 8
Jumping ability 8.5
Subtotal jumping 33.0
Ranking jumping 0
Total points 0.00
Placement nvt (verkort onderzoek)
Test year 2002
Test place Ermelo

Offspring 2003 (foals)
Roven xx showed a uniform collection of generally royally developed, riding type, athletic foals that have long legs and stand in good rectangular model. The head is a little long and expressive. The poll is long and well formed. The neck is long, well formed has good position and is nicely muscled. The wither should be longer and more developed. The shoulder has good length and position. The back has good shape and muscling. The loins are well connected. The croup has sufficient length, has good form and good muscling. The hamstring is sufficiently to more than sufficiently long. The stance of the foreleg is correct with a long pastern. The hindleg is a little long. A few times the finish of the hock should be more correct. The base is sufficiently to more than sufficiently developed.
The walk is pure, more than sufficient in scope and suppleness. The trot has good use of the hindleg with more than sufficient suppleness and generally sufficient self carriage. The canter has much suppleness, good impulsion, much balance and the foals are good at changes.
There were 18 picked foals and 6 that were selected by the owner. One foal that was inspected at home fit in with the above report, as did the foals that were selected by the owner.
The mares had good quality.
Shown: 24 (+1) foals out of 94 mares that were bred in 2002.

Pedigree information 2002
The stallion committee of the KWPN thinks that in Roven xx they have found a balanced thoroughbred with superior temperament and excellent riding and jumping characteristics. After a short racing career Roven xx was introduced to jumping in the USA. With Geoffrey Welsh the stallion was successful and had multiple placings at the 1.40/1.50 m courses. Roven xx’s sire Lefty xx also produced the thoroughbred stallion Peregrino la Silla xx, who jumped internationally and who in turn produced multiple jumpers.
Recamier produced the race horses Rambouillet (s Bordeaux Bob), Rocco (s Snow Festival), Rauch (s Lefty), El Mejor (s Snow Festival) and Romeria (s Lefty). Ravelana (Brazil) produced the race horse Canticle (s Tudor Minstrel). Persian Vista (Great Britain) produced the race horses Bushire (s Persian Gulf) and Roman Way (s Watling Street).

Sport index
Year of calculation 2008
Number of sport results (show jumping) in calculation 16
Reliability breeding value show jumping 75
breeding value: show jumping 135
Number of sport results (dressage) in calculation 2

Type 2002
Roven xx is a well developed Thoroughbred stallion that stands in good rectangular model. He has a long neck that appears a little horizontal when the stallion is stood up but it is used well in movement. The wither- shoulder formation is well developed. The base is correct and has much quality."

[grayarabpony]

Jackie, why do you even think the native European horse had a good jump?

My mare didn’t have Hackney knee action but she could go in an extended trot all day long and had an excellent canter to boot. I doubt she could have raised as a trotter :lol: but she had a very nice trot. Fwiw the best mover of any breed I’ve ever seen in all 3 gaits was a TB mare.

I’ve seen the warmblood trot in all sorts of breeds. It’s not unique to the warmblood. Why has the trot been brought up anyway?

[omare]

I agree about Contendro who supposedly was too busy breeding to go to the show ring, but in contrast Casall is not too busy to be used as a breeding stallion and campaign at the top (because he can?) – Apparently whether Contendro could have jumped GP matters not as he bred great mares and has a pedigree/genetics to make jumpers which he passes as a sire (which is another thread as to what makes a sire). Interesting about Numero Uno as I thought he jumped at the top and – if he jumped to 1.5 m I would say that was his comfort level but again he seems to be able to make jumpers. It is amazing the difference 3 inches makes, whether it is 1.2 to 1.3 or 1.4 to 1.5 or 1.5 to 1.6 --it can stop horses cold.

[grayarabpony]

The stallion test translation says Roven did compete at 1.5m.

Not every owner wants to put their stallion into showing full time.

Well both I and the judges at the stallion test disagree with you about his jump and canter, so…

[Jackie_Cochran]

When the one man who probably knew more about horses than anyone else in history (Hayes, veterinarian, “horse breaker”, traveled to most continents and handled horses from all over the British Empire and beyond, author of several books that are still classics) emphasizes that the English hunter of his time had very little TB blood, and when Hayes does not recommend TBs as hunters saying that a half-bred TB had all the TB blood a hunter could ever need, well, 30 years ago I ignored him. Due to this discussion I am now listening to him. There are TBs who can jump, Huaso STILL has the high-jumping record after all, but I am looking closely at the jumping videos and it looks to me that the TBs HAVE TO jump higher than the WBs because the front legs hang down more than the super-folding of the fore legs/hind legs of the WBs, well it got me thinking outside of the box I’ve been in over 50 years.

Maybe, just maybe, TB race horse breeders have succeeded in breeding out the “jump” that their horses used to have, a “jump” that the Arabs, Barbs and Turkomen were never famed for. This jumping ability had to come from somewhere and if it did not come from the hot-bloods it had to come from the British stock that had a lot of European horse ancestry from Germany/Flanders/Holland/Spain etc. crossed on top of the native British pony mares. Before the enclosure movement around the time of Henry VIII/Elizabeth I, most European horses never had to jump anything at all in their whole lives, but apparantly something in their genes, especially when combined with the riding qualities of the hot bloods, enables them to beat modern TBs in show jumping reliably at the highest levels in the sport.

I originally brought up the trot because high trotting Arabs tend to outperform low trotting Arabs on the race course where they perform at a gallop. It can be a sign of athletic ability. I look at the Holstein videos of their horses moving free and what do I often see? A BIG free moving trot with super mobile shoulders, well balanced with equal heighth of action in the hind legs. Lower trotting horses are quite capable of extending the trot (my Anglo-Arab had an astounding extended trot), they just do not do it the same way as the high trotters. I tend to ignore the ridden trot since the riders seem to be doing everything they can to tone down the exhuberance of their horse’s trot (riding behind vertical (WB), or riding saddle-seat with rather unforgiving hands (ASB).)

I lived in South America from 1957 to 1963, and I saw LOTS of cart horses, criollo cow ponies, riding horses, there were working horses all around (in Montevideo I could see at least 6 to 7 horses a day pulling carts out of my bedroom window in the upper-class suburb). No, the horses were not pretty, these were working horses. I’ve lived in the US for decades, in Northern Virginia near the hunt country and further south in N.C. in the fox-hunting territory of the Mecklenburg hounds, then later in the more ASB/THW/QH favoring country-side. I’ve looked at every horse I can ever since I met a horse when I was 6 years old, and I am 63 now. My conclusions are drawn from all the horses I’ve seen in my life. I love a good TB. I just wish they were winning reliably at 1.6 meters against all comers like they used to, or were they? I just realized that I used to assume that if a horse looked like a TB that it was a TB. Now I know I was wrong. Those super jumpers have a lot of TB blood, but they are usually not pure TBs nowadays.

[Elles]

What was it in Hurry On, Son in Law, Furioso, Fra Diavolo, Rantzau, Orange Peel, Harphortas, Ultimate, L’Avenir, Le Mioche, Monceaux, etc. that made them useful for sporthorse breeding?

[omare]

http://www.pedigreequery.com/laudanum
Laudanum I know has been mentioned but he did compete at the top and produce at the top. He has a very “old” TB pedigree with Umidwar and Tourbillon on the first page (two Viney has so often noted for jump).

“Competed as an international Grand Prix jumper from 1972-1982, winning Grand Prix, Puissance & Nations Cups with rider Pierre Durand.
Sired 21 international performers, including: Oh Star, Nashville, Oeron du Moulin, Chergar Mail, Odanum, Raspail Bose, Chapultepec La Silla, Valbaussy and First de Launey.Was the leading jumper sire of 2001, with six of his progeny competing at Grand Prix level. Died 1997.”

One of his F1 - Oh Star (Olympic Star)
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=372465
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?l=372465&z=bwTphc

Oh Star. an F1 (Laudanum) that was a top top jumper. I believe he was picked for one of the teams but could not be shipped overseas because of something he had contracted (but I cant remember what it was.)

But I cannot find any video on either one. (I am sure the WB jump has changed how I look at jumpers.)

[Elles]

Other TB’s with a positive influence: Maestoso, Frivol, Ladykiller is almost too obvious just like Cottage Son, Rittersporn, More magic, Koridon, Foudroyant, Courville, Le Val Blanc, Lucky Boy, Der Löwe, Poet, Manometer, Gaur, Largny, Thuswin, Sherry Netherland, Tin Rod, Sable Skinflint, Anblick, Alcanar, Erdball, Marlon, Night and Day, Garitchou (AA), Orbis, Sacramento Son, Ballyboy, Inschallah (AA), these horses can be found in the pedigrees of the best of show jumpers.

[Elles]

Amarpour, Le Faquin, L’Echappee (mare), Et Hop (AA), Uppercut, Ascendant, Pluchino, Waidmannsdank, San Michele, Millerole, Narew, Golden Beaker, Sunny Light, Eratosthenes, Gag, Trojnat, Kurde (AA), Korenbleem, Un Prince, Earldom, Arlequin (AA), Nordlys, Water Serpent, Matador (AA), Sly Jezzie, Pantheon, Perpetua du Crocq (AA), African Drum, Persian Path, Sorgenbrecher, More Magic, Wildbeere, Tangelo.

[cb06]

[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;7643436]
There are a few reasons why I thought ASB. This breed produces horses of the required heighth, unlike the Standardbred they have decent canters, they have some refinement and great scope in their movements. I doubt you will find proven breeding stock for jumping, but this breed might actually produce stallions capable of passing the WB performance testing, with proper training of course.

… Yes, the TB provides riding horse conformation, athleticism and scope. So can the ASB.[/QUOTE]

This is an interesting thread and I think Jackie brings an interesting and unique perspective with merit. Though I don’t know much about Tb breeding, I know a bit about ASBs (though D’Baldstocking is much more well versed).

One of the ASB foundation sires, Gaines Denmark (on the top of both the sire and dam lines of Wing Commander, one of the most famous ASB sires of all time).
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/gaines+denmark
…and a little closer up to Wing Commander is Bourbon Chief, where you start to see the Morgan and Standardbred mixed in…
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/bourbon+chief

You do have to look for the right ‘type’, but there are ASBs, trotting loose in the field (as Jackie mentioned previously), that most would be hard pressed to distinguish from modern WBs.

http://i456.photobucket.com/albums/qq288/cb06_photos/Misc%20photos/3yroldBlackGold1_zps192ee300.jpg

http://i456.photobucket.com/albums/qq288/cb06_photos/Misc%20photos/1425506_10203182397626808_161426_n_zps2055b53f.jpg

http://i456.photobucket.com/albums/qq288/cb06_photos/Misc%20photos/3yroldBlackGold2_zps46243abf.jpg

http://i456.photobucket.com/albums/qq288/cb06_photos/Misc%20photos/eventingasb_zpsa63587db.jpg

I have been asked my horses’ ‘breeding’ more than once at dressage shows…

[D_BaldStockings]

For Jackie Cochran:

https://www.facebook.com/BloomsburyStudAmericanSaddlebredPerformanceHorses

http://bloomsburystud.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2014-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&updated-max=2015-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=3

No, this is not me, but nice horses.

[ChelseaR]

I think one of the primary reasons people say that TB kills the jump is that in NA sport horse breeding a lot of people are breeding TB mares without much knowledge or consideration of their pedigree for jumping. Same goes for some of the TB stallions standing as sport horse sires.

There is also not a whole lot of work done to track TB mare lines that work well in sport horse breeding (at least not nearly the dedication to it that WB mare lines have).

When you select an OTTB mare for breeding based on her appearance alone (she’s tall, she’s a pretty color, even based on lack of significant conformation flaws) but have no idea if her lines have ever produced an upper level jumper then it should be no surprise that when bred to a WB sire (selected because he’s famous, or you like babies from him out of mares with completely different lines) there is no point in being surprised when the baby doesn’t have anywhere near Daddies jumping ability.

This holds even more true when both mare and stallion have nothing close up in their pedigree that has any significant performance results.

Looking pretty over perfectly staged free jumps doesn’t really count for much. Neither does being a fluke - the one horse in the line that had the heart to out jump his pedigree tends not to breed true (in all areas).

Guess what - breeding to non-jumping lines tends to kill the jump. Big surprise there. WBs can also kill the jump, too much dressage blood can kill the jump.

That doesn’t mean that no TBs can jump, it simply means that selecting a TB mare or stallion based on appearance alone without considering performance is not likely to result in great jumper.

If jumping ability can be considered highly hereditary that also implies that lack of jumping ability is also high hereditary. Can’t prove one without the other or jumping ability would just appear to be a random trait since no one is claiming that jumping a highly dominate ability just that if you breed jumping lines you have a higher than average likelihood of getting foal who has a good jump.

[EventerAJ]

Well said, Chelsea. I agree with you-- there is a surplus of TB mares in this country, but there’s not always much discrimination for their use in sport breeding, particularly regarding their pedigree. That’s not true in racing-- the damline is extremely important at the sales-- but for sport horses, often “she’s pretty, moves okay and jumps 3ft okay, and she’s mine” is enough reason to breed. With such scattered, haphazard selection, few true-breeding sport lines have ever been established in the TB.

If more effort (and time, and lots of $$!) were invested in really studying, evaluating, and producing the mare lines, I think we’d learn that this mystical TB jump does exist, and can be replicated in modern pedigrees. But who’s willing to put up that money and hard work? Who’s willing to start with a talented, proven TB mare…breed her to a well-researched TB stallion; take that resulting filly, compete her and prove her in sport; then breed her to another TB stallion; then the repeat the process with resulting generations. Do that multiple times to refine different lines. Who wants to put in the time and money to do that, with all the usual risks of breeding?