TB kills the jump?

[vineyridge]

If the jump is heritable 40% of the time and you start with a mare that does have a good jump and is performance tested, you should get a foal with her jump 40% of the time if also bred to a stallion who has the jump. The only problem that I see is that her jump and his jump might not be the same jump.

What I mean is that the genes that produce the jump in a TB pedigree context might not be the genes that have been identified as being more homozygous in the Holstein breeding population. I certainly would like to see a genetic study of Gemini to see what he has for those particular genes. After all, we do know that the Bonne Cause family had an internationally proved GP jump.

[Elles]

Who was this horse Nonix le Parc?
http://www.floridahorse.com/aarongm.htm

[omare]

Aaron Vale had a lot of success with him and but I think this horse was never ridden successfully by anywone else. I thought they had tried to sell him but ended up taking him back but my memory could be incorrect.

[Elles]

http://www.phr.com/points/horseResultsDisplay.aspx?hid=4046005&year=2003&section=9000&badPoints=npb&bdate=12/1/2002&fdate=11/30/2003&standType=SS&zone=0&title=High%20Point%20Jumper
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10214157&z=ffsdU7
http://www.equestrian-database.com/serve/advancedzoek?evenement[land]=&paard[nationaliteit]=15&paard[stamboek]=&redi=mainsite&ruiter[nationaliteit]=54

[tuckawayfarm]

He was also ridden successfully by George Sanna before he began showing in the U.S. with Aaron Vale. Elles, his results from 2000-2002 were just as impressive as the ones you posted from 2003.

[D_BaldStockings]

found this in the archive
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-165976.html

and this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OFSiNfj8FDE
This is what TB jumpers -and WB jumpers- looked like in the 1958-1960+ era.
TB:
Riviera Wonder, Night Owl, both by Bonne Nuit, Ksar D’esprit, Sinjon, Master William.

And
Nautical - by a Quarterhorse out of a Tbx remount mare
Tally Ho ?
Diamont - WB but not certain of breeding…

Interesting to see how courses have changed over the decades.

[vineyridge]

Why do you think Diamont/Diamant was WB? Have you a link to that information?
He was owned by Eleonora Sears who was the owner and breeder of many great show jumpers, including Ksar d’Esprit, and was famous for her string of grey show jumpers. I think she may have been the owner of Riviera Wonder and Miss Budweiser as well. Very much a TB person.

The courses are very different, and the style of these horses was to jump out of speed. There were very few related distances that I could see and not many combinations.

[Elles]

But the Quarter horse historically has also had quite a bit of TB blood and they are very good at twisting and turning. Why would a TB not be good for today’s courses? Other people are saying that TB blood is what we need for today’s courses.
http://americashorsedaily.com/three-bars-legacy/
http://cottonwoodperformancehorses.com/images/SugsRedOak/CuttingL.jpg
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/sugs+red+oak

[supershorty628]

@Elles;7650777

But the Quarter horse historically has also had quite a bit of TB blood and they are very good at twisting and turning. Why would a TB not be good for today’s courses? Other people are saying that TB blood is what we need for today’s courses.

Just speaking from my experience of showing a TB over today’s courses at the 1.50m level, it was pretty difficult to change her way of going to make it work better for the trappy courses of today.

PNWJumper and I both addressed this earlier in the thread. We both have TBs competing in the bigger classes, and we have both found that our horses do best on a course with a lot of open space to gallop. The courses that are most suitable for my horse are scope tests - big, wide jumps, but not something where she needs to be packaged into a little box and then spring UP and OUT from that. For a long time, she got her scope from having that bigger step. As she’s gotten more educated and stronger, and as I’ve gotten at least slightly less incompetent, the course design has become less important to our success.

The really successful jumpers are bred to have that power in their back ends. My horse wasn’t bred for that - I just got lucky that she has the scope and heart to do it - and so I had to spend a lot of time training her to go that way (and figuring out how to ride that way). In that sense, I think there is an inherent disadvantage to the TB today as compared to the warmbloods who are bred for that. There are many warmbloods who are being produced with that in mind; the TBs who have it are flukes.

[vineyridge]

This is an excellent analysis. And I think goes to show how much course design determines the kind of horse that is used and bred. I was watching the Spruce Meadows live feed yesterday for the Suncast cup 1.45 meters with speed the determining factor in one round, and the course only had one “galloping” stretch at the very end. The rest of the course was all jumping off some really tight turns.

Which is why I have said for years that an All American jumper could be produced (after generations of breeding) from a mix of roping bred QH, TBs, and something like Morgans or ASBs. But you’d have to cull mercilessly. And you’d have to have the plan worked out to the last detail of conformation, rideability, power and scope before you ever started.

[QUOTE=supershorty628;7650933]
Just speaking from my experience of showing a TB over today’s courses at the 1.50m level, it was pretty difficult to change her way of going to make it work better for the trappy courses of today.

PNWJumper and I both addressed this earlier in the thread. We both have TBs competing in the bigger classes, and we have both found that our horses do best on a course with a lot of open space to gallop. The courses that are most suitable for my horse are scope tests - big, wide jumps, but not something where she needs to be packaged into a little box and then spring UP and OUT from that. For a long time, she got her scope from having that bigger step. As she’s gotten more educated and stronger, and as I’ve gotten at least slightly less incompetent, the course design has become less important to our success.

The really successful jumpers are bred to have that power in their back ends. My horse wasn’t bred for that - I just got lucky that she has the scope and heart to do it - and so I had to spend a lot of time training her to go that way (and figuring out how to ride that way). In that sense, I think there is an inherent disadvantage to the TB today as compared to the warmbloods who are bred for that. There are many warmbloods who are being produced with that in mind; the TBs who have it are flukes.[/QUOTE]

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7650682]
Why do you think Diamont/Diamant was WB? Have you a link to that information?
He was owned by Eleonora Sears who was the owner and breeder of many great show jumpers, including Ksar d’Esprit, and was famous for her string of grey show jumpers. I think she may have been the owner of Riviera Wonder and Miss Budweiser as well. Very much a TB person.

The courses are very different, and the style of these horses was to jump out of speed. There were very few related distances that I could see and not many combinations.[/QUOTE]

There is a Diamont that is a Hanoverian. He was imported by Glenwood Farms in California and stood there until his death several years ago. He was primarily known for producing dressage horses and was a very good broodmare sire. However, his horses did have a jump. Some had rather “stinker” personalities and were difficult as youngsters.

[vineyridge]

We’re talking about horses who would have been bred in the late 40’s, early 1950s. Diamant was on the 1959 USET squad, IIRC from the video.

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=Elles;7650777]
But the Quarter horse historically has also had quite a bit of TB blood and they are very good at twisting and turning. Why would a TB not be good for today’s courses? Other people are saying that TB blood is what we need for today’s courses.
http://americashorsedaily.com/three-bars-legacy/
http://cottonwoodperformancehorses.com/images/SugsRedOak/CuttingL.jpg
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/sugs+red+oak[/QUOTE]

The key word here is “historically.” The only TB being infused in the modern QH today is for the HUS horses, and even that is going by the way side. I think I can safely say that a HUS QH is not going to be good at “twisting and turning.” They plant their head and hack on the rail. That’s it.

“Good at twisting and turning” is useful in working horses - cutting, reining, working cow horse, etc. The infusion of TB in horses for these events hasn’t been used in generations.

QH breeders began using TB up close when extreme specialization became the norm (the exception would be racing). HUS horses needed height, a better shoulder and less dense muscle mass to move with a more open stride. However, it’s not been my experience that these QH/TB crosses jump very well. They still tend to not have the stride to get down the lines and jump with hanging knees. Now whether that comes from the QH side or the TB side is open to debate.

And, using a working QH type to jump the big sticks and think they’ll be competitive is laughable. When I started up with hunters, I would have dearly loved to have found a QH that was competitive. It was like looking for a needle in a haystack, even if the horse had TB up close.

[Elles]

I was not suggesting that we should be using QH’s for jumping…

[Elles]

Still… Does this horse look as if it has super power behind:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?showpic=10584944&time=1398438889&z=J1Ijh0

Or this one:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?showpic=10471355&time=1398439252

Or these?
http://pferdebild.com/archive/historical-images-of-jumping-dressage-eventing-carriage-driving-27/

These horses do not have QH butt full of muscles.

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7651053]
We’re talking about horses who would have been bred in the late 40’s, early 1950s. Diamant was on the 1959 USET squad, IIRC from the video.[/QUOTE]

I’m only pointing out that there is a Diamont and a Diamant, both WBs, to avoid confusion from WB breeders who are familiar with these horses.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7649821]
If the jump is heritable 40% of the time and you start with a mare that does have a good jump and is performance tested, you should get a foal with her jump 40% of the time if also bred to a stallion who has the jump. The only problem that I see is that her jump and his jump might not be the same jump.

What I mean is that the genes that produce the jump in a TB pedigree context might not be the genes that have been identified as being more homozygous in the Holstein breeding population. I certainly would like to see a genetic study of Gemini to see what he has for those particular genes. After all, we do know that the Bonne Cause family had an internationally proved GP jump.[/QUOTE]

Viney why on earth would that be when Tbs have been added all along and were instrumental in the production of today’s warmblood jumpers, including Holsteiners?

[Elles]

And I still do not believe that the old time warmbloods that were mostly developed and used for pulling/agriculture and were never ever selected for jumping aiblity (not in a million years) are the bees knees. Like said before, the mixing of these heavier type/agriculate/coach/carriage horses with TB’s only started in the 1960’s…
What asks for more athletic ability… This: http://images.theinformant.co.nz/_newsimages/2013/2013-06-Jun/RosetownJoe3-06-13-L.jpg
Or that: http://www.woefenhinnik.nl/upload/20/photos/gelderse_paarden.JPG

[vineyridge]

The scientific study from Germany that Stoney referenced identified five genes that have been shown to affect human athletic performance that the Holsteiners were considerably more homozygous for than the Hanoverians and TBs that were sequenced. However, they sequenced breeding stallions, not performance horses, IIRC.

The point I guess that led to my suggestion was that the TB jump might include other genes that are more prevalent in the pure TB while the genes that are homogygous in the Holsteiner might work better with the “native” population and have been selected for for generations. If Jackie Cochran’s suggestion that the WB trot is different from the usual TB trot and might have something to do with the type of athleticism that has resulted in the WB jump is correct, then we could be talking about a “different” jump.

A history of pulling might lead to horses who work off their hindquarters naturally.

One hopes that more studies–genome sequencing of performance horses of all kinds–will be conducted in the future.

[grayarabpony]

I don’t know why we’d be talking about a different jump. Really? Considering the importance of thoroughbreds in jumping breeding, that sounds like a heck of a stretch.

Even if we throw discussion of the trot in here, there are TBs who trot like warmbloods too. I’ve seen that trot in a number of breeds.

Any horse that is bred to work has to use its hindquarters well, if it’s a good horse. But pulling isn’t like jumping.

Where is the study that Stoney referenced?