An old fashioned type of warmblood, the Groninger: http://dekhengsten.nl/stallions/stallion/details/114/Oscar
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/548793
Actually, the reverse is true. Draft horses are heavy in the front end so they can bear down and pull.
[QUOTE=Elles;7651099]
I was not suggesting that we should be using QH’s for jumping…[/QUOTE]
No, but I read your post to say the TB has “historically” been used in QH breeding and QHs are very good at twisting and turning. What I’m pointing out is that the infusion of TB is not what makes the QH good at “twisting and turning.” The opposite is true, actually.
[QUOTE=Go Fish;7651271]
Actually, the reverse is true. Draft horses are heavy in the front end so they can bear down and pull.[/QUOTE]
Depends on what the horse is pulling, a very heavy load or a carriage.
Mac Cone, the Canadian show jumper, started his career on a QH. In Dr. Birdsall’s Bloodlines of Hunters and Jumpers in North America’s Jumper volume, there are several QH/TB crosses–Almost Persuaded was by a QH stallion but 3/4 TB and was a member of the USET team for about five years and won a 6’9" Puissance; she had a full brother who was also on the USET; a QH mare produced Texas, member of the Canadian Team, and his brother Dallas; Frogs Have Wings was a registered QH with two TB grandsires; JG Super Star was a GP jumper and had a QH dam; Mr. Muskie was a QHxTB who won in Europe. Mac Cone’s QH was OT QH named Bomber. He was best at speed classes and was described thusly: “true to his breeding, he could turn on a dime”. Another QH jumper from back in the day Copper Khan “made a clean sweep” of the jumper division at Lake Placid and consistently placed in all the major shows in the East, including MSG, Washington and Philly, and won several classes along the way.
So Appendixes do have a history in Show Jumping, but succumbed to the WB invasion, the change of fashion, and the loss of “spotters”.
[QUOTE=Go Fish;7651279]
No, but I read your post to say the TB has “historically” been used in QH breeding and QHs are very good at twisting and turning. What I’m pointing out is that the infusion of TB is not what makes the QH good at “twisting and turning.” The opposite is true, actually.[/QUOTE]
The infusion of athleticism from TBs could very well help with twisting and turning. Plus, TBs have a lot of fast twitch fibers too! Not as fast as QHs at the quarter mile but still pretty darn fast.
http://thoroughbredink.com/WorldRecords.html
http://www.aqha.com/Racing/Content-Pages/Horseman-Info/Awards/AQHA-Horse-Awards/World-Records.aspx
[QUOTE=vineyridge;7651288]
Mac Cone, the Canadian show jumper, started his career on a QH. In Dr. Birdsall’s Bloodlines of Hunters and Jumpers in North America’s Jumper volume, there are several QH/TB crosses–Almost Persuaded was by a QH stallion but 3/4 TB and was a member of the USET team for about five years and won a 6’9" Puissance; she had a full brother who was also on the USET; a QH mare produced Texas, member of the Canadian Team, and his brother Dallas; Frogs Have Wings was a registered QH with two TB grandsires; JG Super Star was a GP jumper and had a QH dam; Mr. Muskie was a QHxTB who won in Europe. Mac Cone’s QH was OT QH named Bomber. He was best at speed classes and was described thusly: “true to his breeding, he could turn on a dime”. Another QH jumper from back in the day Copper Khan “made a clean sweep” of the jumper division at Lake Placid and consistently placed in all the major shows in the East, including MSG, Washington and Philly, and won several classes along the way.
So Appendixes do have a history in Show Jumping, but succumbed to the WB invasion, the change of fashion, and the loss of “spotters”.[/QUOTE]
QHs come in so many different shapes and sizes, and there are fantastic horses for dressage and jumping among them.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7651238]
Where is the study that Stoney referenced?[/QUOTE]
She sent it to me by email. It was published in Animal Genetics in 2011. If you’d like to see it, let me know.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;7651305]
She sent it to me by email. It was published in Animal Genetics in 2011. If you’d like to see it, let me know.[/QUOTE]
Sent you a PM.
I was looking at the old USET videos and noticed that all the horses, TB or not, were quite capable of jumping big fences clear.
Then I remembered reading in several books about various training techniques to teach the jumpers to fold their front and hind legs when clearing the jump. Most of the Forward Seat people did not like the poling at all, what they came up with to teach their preferred TBs/ TBxs to fold their legs was plenty of work over the triple bar jumps. Eventually the horse learned to fold, and then learned to fold faster, and it carried over whenever the horse thought it would make a “better” jump for itself.
Maybe, just maybe, the majority of TBs need to be TRAINED to jump like a WB jumps naturally. Of course the TB needs to have the “TB jump” too to compete internationally.
The same thing goes for the super tricky courses. If TBs can be trained to become a polo pony I assure that the breed has the ability to do any type of tricky course, if it has “the jump.” I suspect that a significant number of TBs may not accept the dressage type collection with good grace WHEN THEY KNOW THAT THEY WILL HAVE TO DO A SUPREME EFFORT. I earlier mentioned the American Forward Riding System and the Ft. Riley cavalry seats, there is a lot of knowledge on how to get TBs/TB type horses to become responsive to the rider at speed, negating much of the need for over use of the hand to rate the horse and a lot of the need for half-halts. We Forward Seat riders tend to do A LOT of the three speeds exercise, lengthening and shortening the horse’s stride at will without annoying the horse. It can be done, it is just that everyone has bought into the “classical dressage is necessary for high jumping” just as much as people buy into the “TBs will improve any breed’s jump.”
The Warm Blood mare lines, well the original ones NEEDED to cross to TBs to overcome conformational “faults” that did not matter before these horses were aimed to international competition. These mare lines had had hot-blood crosses for centuries. Right now the pedigrees of these horses show the mare lines outcrossed incessantly. MOSTLY TB, with lesser traces of Arab, Barb, Shagya, etc. with the mare lines valiantly hanging on and giving these horses an unique, athletic type of movement that most TBs don’t have naturally. But talented TBs can be trained to jump a lot like the WBs. Of course results depend on the rider and the horse. Riding, training, and control on a horse capable of giving you what you want.
Happy Fourth of July!
Jackie Cochran, of course - sometimes you can train a horse that isn’t built/bred for a job to do it. But the question, at least in my mind, is why go down the more difficult route, not knowing if you’ll be successful, when you could go a way that is more likely to get you where you want to go?
Sure, you might be able to get a TB going the way a warmblood goes around these courses today. I did. But it took a lot of blood, sweat, tears, and classes where we weren’t competitive to get that done. If I were doing it as an investment, I’d be so far in the red that it would be completely pointless.
It makes more sense, financially, to do it with a horse that is much more likely to be successful just based on its background. It’s the same thing with sports in people; I could probably be trained, with a ton of time and effort, to be an amazing basketball player. It should just take a good trainer, right?
But the fact of the matter is… at the end of the day, I’m still 5’1" with short legs, and that alone will make it much harder for me to be a good basketball player.
For the courses today, it is. Being able to adjust stride length is not enough to be successful now. It’s still crucial, but it’s not the only thing that matters. Courses back in the day were much more “gallop around over big jumps” than the technical traps that they are now. Back then, the flatwork might not have been as important.
I love TBs as much as the next person - it’s impossible not to, given the amazing little mare that I get to play with every day - but when I’m looking for my next upper level prospect, I probably won’t look for a TB. I’ll look for a warmblood with a lot of blood; I’m more likely to find what I’m looking for, and ultimately, I probably won’t be out as much money.
I was sent this link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf2GWSCKlk4
It is a QH jumper, does anyone know what his pedigree is please?
[QUOTE=supershorty628;7651886]
Jackie Cochran, of course - sometimes you can train a horse that isn’t built/bred for a job to do it. But the question, at least in my mind, is why go down the more difficult route, not knowing if you’ll be successful, when you could go a way that is more likely to get you where you want to go?
Sure, you might be able to get a TB going the way a warmblood goes around these courses today. I did. But it took a lot of blood, sweat, tears, and classes where we weren’t competitive to get that done. If I were doing it as an investment, I’d be so far in the red that it would be completely pointless.
It makes more sense, financially, to do it with a horse that is much more likely to be successful just based on its background. It’s the same thing with sports in people; I could probably be trained, with a ton of time and effort, to be an amazing basketball player. It should just take a good trainer, right?
But the fact of the matter is… at the end of the day, I’m still 5’1" with short legs, and that alone will make it much harder for me to be a good basketball player.
For the courses today, it is. Being able to adjust stride length is not enough to be successful now. It’s still crucial, but it’s not the only thing that matters. Courses back in the day were much more “gallop around over big jumps” than the technical traps that they are now. Back then, the flatwork might not have been as important.
I love TBs as much as the next person - it’s impossible not to, given the amazing little mare that I get to play with every day - but when I’m looking for my next upper level prospect, I probably won’t look for a TB. I’ll look for a warmblood with a lot of blood; I’m more likely to find what I’m looking for, and ultimately, I probably won’t be out as much money.[/QUOTE]
A jumper today needs more dressage work than a dressage horse needs dressage work.
Great post supershorty. 
[QUOTE=Jackie Cochran;7651450]
Then I remembered reading in several books about various training techniques to teach the jumpers to fold their front and hind legs when clearing the jump. Most of the Forward Seat people did not like the poling at all, what they came up with to teach their preferred TBs/ TBxs to fold their legs was plenty of work over the triple bar jumps. Eventually the horse learned to fold, and then learned to fold faster, and it carried over whenever the horse thought it would make a “better” jump for itself.[/QUOTE]
I don’t know any jumper trainers who school triple bars today in an effort to improve the jumping style. Most horses do well over them because they are very rampy and easy for the horse to judge both height and width. They can encourage a flatter trajectory which is not beneficial for jumping technical combinations.
[QUOTE=supershorty628;7651886]
It makes more sense, financially, to do it with a horse that is much more likely to be successful just based on its background. It’s the same thing with sports in people; I could probably be trained, with a ton of time and effort, to be an amazing basketball player. It should just take a good trainer, right?
But the fact of the matter is… at the end of the day, I’m still 5’1" with short legs, and that alone will make it much harder for me to be a good basketball player.
For the courses today, it is. Being able to adjust stride length is not enough to be successful now. It’s still crucial, but it’s not the only thing that matters. Courses back in the day were much more “gallop around over big jumps” than the technical traps that they are now. Back then, the flatwork might not have been as important.
I love TBs as much as the next person - it’s impossible not to, given the amazing little mare that I get to play with every day - but when I’m looking for my next upper level prospect, I probably won’t look for a TB. I’ll look for a warmblood with a lot of blood; I’m more likely to find what I’m looking for, and ultimately, I probably won’t be out as much money.[/QUOTE]
Oh yes, I agree about getting a good WB if one wants to win at stadium jumping today, one that is no nearer than an F2 to the TB outcross. There is rightfully a big demand for these wonderful horses since they make the life of their human partner so much easier. Since these horses are so good at modern day stadium jumping there really is no other possible choice–if you can afford the WB prices up front AND know enough about the peculiarities of WB breeding to make an educated decision when buying a WB to do stadium jumping.
Since I have never in my life had enough money to even start thinking about buying a horse of this caliber I am looking at this discussion as much about “TB kills the jump” as how the TB, F1s and other type horses can use their native athletic ability effectively enough to realistically compete against these wonderful natural born jumping horses. There is only one answer, it takes A LOT of effective training, a lot of blood, sweat and tears, and very, very good riding. It is not hopeless, I am not talking about something like training a TWH with eyes to winning the Kentucky Derby, that is impossible since TWHs have never galloped faster than a TB over 1 1/4 miles. TBs, F1s & non-WBs do have at least a small chance of out-jumping a good WB, if their owner-trainer-rider picks the right horse, is prepared to do the work, and is willing to take the risk that it just won’t work out. It won’t be easy and if you tend to be an unlucky person I would not recommend trying it. It won’t be cheap either.
The people I feel sorry for are the breeders who KNOW they will have to outcross their jumping mares to a TB in order to keep the riding qualities and refinement. F1 mares can justifiably be used for breeding F2 jumpers. But what is the market for the F1 colts that can get the breeders enough money to pay for raising the colt? Are there enough dressage people to soak up the F1 colts that lack “the jump”, especially in competition with the “purpose bred” dressage WB lines? If a breeder breeds his mare to an F1 colt will there will be only a 50% chance the resulting foal will have “the jump” even if the mare has “the jump” herself?
I also feel sorry for non-European breeders that do not do a lot of research about HOW & WHY WB breeding decisions are made. Most horse people of America have faith in breeds, that if a horse is of a specific breed, that horse has a chance to perform like other horses of that breed, even if that particular horse is not as physically talented as the best horses of that breed. This is a lot of the reason why American horse breeders tend not to do as well as the European breeders, the American horse breeders have yet to realize that there is no guarantee that outcrossing a WB to an approved TB will produce a colt with “the jump.” Of course our culling process is just about non-existent, but that tends to go back to our almost pathetic beliefs about horse breeds and guaranteed results. American optimism does not seem to mesh well with what needs to be done to breed good WBs, especially for stadium jumping.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/casimo2
http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/617095
http://www.oosterzand.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=57&Itemid=100
Quite a bit of linebreeding to TB’s, Cottage Son, Manometer, Rittersporn, Rantzau, Ladykiller.
Linebred to TBs in general: EVERY horse in Casimo’s 4th (?) generation (gg-grandparents) has a TB sireline, even the mares. Just one example of how TBs were used to “invent” the modern-day WB.
Even this one had a TB grandparent:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&search_bar=horse&horse=LOTOS4&g=5&t=
[QUOTE=zipperfoot;7652184]
Linebred to TBs in general: EVERY horse in Casimo’s 4th (?) generation (gg-grandparents) has a TB sireline, even the mares. Just one example of how TBs were used to “invent” the modern-day WB.[/QUOTE]
There may be one existing German WB line that traces tail male to a non-TB, and even that one is suspect (Farn).
