Teach me about scurry

[Thomas_1]

MSP,

I appreciate you’re dead set on scurry driving being something totally different to what it actually is but it’s not and never has been.

You’re clearly intent on arguing black is white and white is black and it seems you’re now even intent on arguing about how old I am!

To put it plain and simple, I’ve told you what Scurry driving is and was so just get over it!

The book you mention is neither old, and if your quote is directly from it, nor accurate.

Scurry driving started in the mid 60’s and trust me, I was there at the start.

It’s never been horses and they’ve never been also ridden.

However we do have something here called “Scurry and Hurry” which is entirely different and where horses are driven and ridden round a mirror course and in a race against the clock. That started in the 70’s and still is occassionally on at large shows and more as a demonstration class for what you can do with a horse and carriage.

Scurry and Hurry classes nowadays even sometimes have a horse and carriage going round one course and a 4 wheel drive car going round a mirror course. Our very own John Parker (chairman of the BDS set a world record with a team of horses beating a car and that included a pit stop with a change of horses for the carriage and a tyre change for the car!)

It’s not scurry driving though.

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=kearleydk;3654652]

I get the impression that scurry has a major “demonstration” aspect to it. Teams are known well in advance and maybe it’s a club sort of thing where the competition is within the club rather than open to anybody.
Is this impression correct?[/QUOTE] You have to be a member to compete and you have to enter in advance.

That’s pretty much the same for most of the equine competitive events we have over here though. So same for show jumping, same for HDT. It’s only tiddly non-sanctioned things where you can just turn up on the day.

It’s most definitely a highly competitive event and with a lot of more fierce competition between members who tend to get to know each other quite well and exactly the same with horse driving trials here.

Two of my drivers will be running single ponies but you have to run what is available. The carriage most appropriate for scurry does not currently have a pole. We only got the carriage yesterday so give me a bit to get a pole on it.
Now I’ve often been accused of being fearless with driven competitive events but I personally wouldn’t want to do “true scurrying” with a single pony and 2 wheel vehicle.

My course is not just a flat playing field. It has a mound in the middle as well as a couple of interesting humps and a pond at one end. Ponies might catch some air over the mound as I set gate #5 right on top of it with a rather long approach.
Likewise the courses here aren’t always like a cricket field and often contain lumps and bumbs which are used in the course construction

[kearleydk]

We did it

We ran the scurry course. It was a blast!!! My experienced competitor was saying “move the cones tighter together” and I was saying “no just go faster.”

Didn’t mean to imply the singles were using carts. There were a couple of carts there but they went fairly slowly. They were settled down as one of them tippped over on the trails early on. No injury and they re-harnessed and went on for another 5 miles.

We ran the scurry with Sammi’s Haflinger, my daughter ran it with my Caspian stallion and both Sammi and I ran it with the caspian 4 and then we dropped the leaders and we each ran it with the wheeler pair.

I’m sure it was not strictly correct but it sure was fun and we have the idea well enough that we can set and run a course for demonstrations.

Thanks for all the input.

Dick

[MSP]

[QUOTE=Thomas_1;3656241]
MSP,

I appreciate you’re dead set on scurry driving being something totally different to what it actually is but it’s not and never has been.

You’re clearly intent on arguing black is white and white is black and it seems you’re now even intent on arguing about how old I am!

To put it plain and simple, I’ve told you what Scurry driving is and was so just get over it!

The book you mention is neither old, and if your quote is directly from it, nor accurate.

Scurry driving started in the mid 60’s and trust me, I was there at the start.

It’s never been horses and they’ve never been also ridden.

However we do have something here called “Scurry and Hurry” which is entirely different and where horses are driven and ridden round a mirror course and in a race against the clock. That started in the 70’s and still is occassionally on at large shows and more as a demonstration class for what you can do with a horse and carriage.

Scurry and Hurry classes nowadays even sometimes have a horse and carriage going round one course and a 4 wheel drive car going round a mirror course. Our very own John Parker (chairman of the BDS set a world record with a team of horses beating a car and that included a pit stop with a change of horses for the carriage and a tyre change for the car!)

It’s not scurry driving though.[/QUOTE]

I find it hard to believe that some one that has written so many books on driving could be so inaccurate but I half expected that response.

Take it up with the author, here are her other works.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_1?_encoding=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Marylian%20Watney

I am not dead set on anything! Simply can’t believe a pony put to a two wheel cart can’t maneuver around cones at speed and that is the primary reason why Modern Scurry is for pairs only.

I wish the Author was here to explain but what I printed was exactly as it appeared in the book.

One more reference for you…

From the http://www.scurrydrivers.co.uk/History.html

The Scurry Driving Association

The full name of Scurry Driving is Double Harness Scurry Driving, which means two ponies pulling a carriage through pairs of cones at full gallop. Balls sit on top of the cones and any balls knocked off incur time penalty points. Sporting drivers compete against each other to get the fastest time possible at shows throughout Great Britain.

A form of Scurry Driving first started as far back as the 1950’s. It started in America with 4 wheel chuck wagons and using barrels to go through. It later came to England using single ponies and the barrels used were red Watney’s beer barrels.

The sport then progressed to using pairs of ponies and red cones. Drivers mainly trotted through the cones with some cantering. The original vehicles had wooden wheels and solid tyres. Metal wheels came in about 15 years ago. As drivers became braver and vehicles were adapted the sport became faster. The width of the vehicles between at least one set of wheels must be no less than 130cms and the cones are set at 170cms apart. At a gallop this needs a great deal of accuracy. The course is made up of between 10 and 14 obstacles including a box and slalom. The ponies are in 2 sections; under 12hh and over 12hh under 14.2hh.

The scurry driving sport was run by the British Horse Driving Trials Association (BHDTA) from as far back as the mid 1960s and in 2001 the Scurry Driving Association was formed, endorsed by the BHDTA. Scurry driving was then recognised as a separate sport in its own right.

There are now approximately 25 major shows throughout the country and 3 main championships to qualify for; The Living Heritage Champion, The National Champion and the Grand League Points Champion.

The Scurry Driving Association are now sending 12 pairs to Paard & Koets to wrap up the season with an exciting competition of accuracy and speed.

Another reference to the sport using single ponies so again missing the “reason” why it is now pairs and why it couldn’t include singles. Interesting that it was an American sport first.

Just determining what Scurry is and wonder why it is!

[Equibrit]

US Football = Rugby
US Baseball = Rounders
US Basketball = Netball
US Soccer = Football

America seems to have a history of this sort of thing.

Why can’t you come up with something original and give it a new name - or don’t mess with a good
thing!

Also interesting to note, if you subscribe to the chuckwagon theory, is that chuckwagons have 4 wheels and are not pulled by a single pony. It is quite obvious to some that scurry racing developed into what it is now through trial and error in the matter of safety. Why on earth would you want to benefit through somebody else’s experience, when you can create your own mayhem, death and disaster and arrive at the same conclusion.

[kearleydk]

wow

I’m amazed at how much discussion, heat, and maybe even rancor this simple search for some info has stirred up.

I asked a pretty straight forward question because: A, I have ponies. B, I am always looking for a performance that will engage an audience. C, I prefer to drive pairs. D, I prefer a 4 wheel carriage. E, I don’t mind running the ponies as fast as possible. and F, My daughter has a big scurry driving poster on the wall of her bedroom along with about 100 other horse posters.

I’m amazed that folks with none of the above reasons want to jump in and cross swords with Thomas who has actually scurried.

Must be some weird part of the human condition.

I’ve got the info I came for and will go out and put it to use.

Thanks again.

Dick

[Thomas_1]

Sounds like you had a great day and also have the right mindset, motivation and objectives.

When we first started scurrying over here some were also a little more sedate and cautious with the course (wider gates and more room to manoevre) but as expertise and enthusiasm was built up (ponies AND drivers) and lessons learnt, and carriages were purpose built, then the sport really took off and became altogether much more exciting and faster.

It’s actually also quite unusual for scurrying ponies to do any other driving activity because they really and truly are trained to either stand or go like sh** off a shiney shovel! I actually thoroughly enjoy messing about training high level scurrying ponies. It’s great fun and for me a great way to really have a blast at the end of a busy day on a lovely summer’s evening.

Got to say that I’m also in entire accord with each and every sentiment you expressed about the pecularities of some folks on the internet.

Like I said some folks will argue black is white, or the ins and outs of a donkey’s backside and probably because they’ve got their head in the dark and stuck up there!!

On the internet I normally just shrug my shoulders and sometimes mumble good old fashioned English words like Pillock or Plonker.

In real life I actually often get paid to listen to it. When that happens I just point out that I’ve all the time in the world to hear someone who hasn’t got a clue argue about how they do or might do something and it’s no difference to me if that’s how they want to spend the time whilst I’m charging per hour.

[MSP]

[QUOTE=Equibrit;3656861]
US Football = Rugby
US Baseball = Rounders
US Basketball = Netball
US Soccer = Football

America seems to have a history of this sort of thing.

Why can’t you come up with something original and give it a new name - or don’t mess with a good
thing!

Also interesting to note, if you subscribe to the chuckwagon theory, is that chuckwagons have 4 wheels and are not pulled by a single pony. It is quite obvious to some that scurry racing developed into what it is now through trial and error in the matter of safety. Why on earth would you want to benefit through somebody else’s experience, when you can create your own mayhem, death and disaster and arrive at the same conclusion.[/QUOTE]

I am curious as to how it did develop and I wouldn’t assume it was 100% motivated by safety. I find it really strange that different levels didn’t evolve to allow participation by all. I didn’t know the chuck wagons was a theory! Yes they are pulled by horses usually but then Modern Scurry isn’t for horses either right?

Dick, if you just wanted T1 to reply next time make it a PM. This is a discussion forum and I was curious and wanted to know more. I don’t except that “because thats the way it is” as an answer. I re-read the questions I asked and I don’t see why I received so much venom. Others asked the same question and I probed further. Next time just go to the Org site and read the rules if that is all you are interested in.

Personally it applies to me because I have a small pony and was curious and concerned why a single pony is so handicapped it can’t manage cones and only pairs will do. I gather that its more of a case of folks specialized Scurry to a point that you can no longer recognize its origins. Sad in a way that they don’t retain some lower level division for folks to get started in. I wonder if it will lead to the demise of the sport some day. I think the expense that just getting out fitted for Scurry would price the average person out. That makes it a bit discriminatory to me.

Times are getting mighty tough and driving will take a hit like every other facet of the horse industry. Eliminating a large group of drivers and setting the bar so high is a handicap in its self.

Thomas, when I read some post in the driving forum I mumble old American words like snob or pompous. Through different eyes we see the world!

[Thomas_1]

MSP,

I appreciate you’re really struggling with this but try reading post 10. That gives you the basic explanation. If you read all the posts relating to scurry driving then you have a full explanation.

But let’s be a little more honest. You don’t really want to know the history or fact relating to the sport at all. You just want to have a little winge about the fact that under the current UK rules you wouldn’t and couldn’t be able to do it. Just get over it!

Furthermore I don’t think for one minute that Dick wanted just me to respond. I get the feeling though he didn’t want some argumentative pillock to go blue in the face because they don’t get why in the UK they can’t do it with a single horse or a 2 wheeler. Just get over it!

Furthermore whilst you might wish to control what folks ask, you don’t and can’t. It might have passed you by but its a driving thread and where there’s actually quite a few that actually do knw what they’re doing.

All this crap about discrimination and prejudice merely demonstrates to me that you don’t and can’t begin to understand the challenges of scurry driving to a pony and all this arguing and moaning about how life’s not fair blah blah blah demonstrates to me that you just need to get in touch with reality and go learn more about driving and when it comes to the UK rules for scurry driving… Just get over it!

You may well not give 2 figs about whether you total F* up a pony trying to make it do something it’s not going to be able to do but in the UK the Scurry Driving governing body… and me… totally disagrees with you. So just get over it!

Thomas, when I read some post in the driving forum I mumble old American words like snob or pompous.
Clearly we’re divided by a common language or else you don’t know what either of those words actually means. So to put it another way, if it’s supposed to me an insult, then it’s lost on me. If concern for safety and welfare that drives rules is pompous or snobbish then long may it be!

Through different eyes we see the world!
Thank goodness!!!

[MSP]

Yes, I know what pompous means

Pompous
Self important:

having an excessive sense of self-importance, usually displayed through exaggerated seriousness or stateliness in speech or manner

Snob

1. Somebody that looks down on others

an admirer and cultivator of people with high social status who disdains those considered inferior

2. Somebody who feels Superior

somebody who disdains people considered to have inferior knowledge or tastes

Don’t see how I ever said anything that would give you the impression I want to control what is asked. I just stated that everyone is free to post!

I understand how Scurry is today, I managed to pick that up in this thread even though I am a Pillock and Plonker. Wait let me wipe the drool from my face before I continue. How ever I also understand that in many other disciplines they may have different divisions. Either for the person or horses experience level or size of the equine. So different equipment and speed is expected based on these.

I just find it strange that Scurry has had no such flexibility. No need to insult me over it but yet you managed. If you think I want to come out here for argument you couldn’t be further from the truth.

Enjoy YOUR Scurry!

[horseyfolks]

I don’t wish to add fuel to this fire but I believe, as they say, “Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder”.

My daughter Sam drove Dick’s scurry course and found it to be no challenge. At the huge clearance allowed (40 centimeters) it was like galloping down a lane. She competes in Advanced FEI cones and with the times allowed she competes at speed with only 20 centimeters clearance. She feels that with her pony and her marathon or presentation vehicle
she is perfectly capable of meeting and beating the speeds of a pair on the same scurry course. So in her eyes, as strictly a speed event, a scurry is not very competitive.

By eliminating all other competition except pairs they are removing a large group of competitors and guaranteeing the champion is always a pair.

I think the point of the whole conversation is that a scurry is a competition set up for pairs to compete against each other. If they can be beaten at the game by a single or any other combination is a moot point. If one pair can beat another pair is all that matters to those who compete in a scurry.

Dick is not competitive. He drives his horses for fun and he enjoys introducing driving to many that do not drive through expositions, skits, and demonstrations. He is always looking for ways to add excitement. Anything new that will excite the people in the stands is a big plus in his situation. Scurry fits that bill. It is perfect for him…

I do wonder though, if scurry is for pairs, may a tandem compete?

[susanne]

There’s absolutely nothing saying we can’t do something entirely different from British Scurry – but I’d think we all have enough creativity and originality to give it its own name. No big deal. Scurry is Scurry, whereas what everyone wants is something different indeed. Whatever it’s called, I’d love to try it!

So let’s here some name suggestions for our American version of speed cones…

[Ashemont]

A rose by any other name…

I don’t care what anyone calls it, I’d sure love to give it a go with my girls :yes: Dick, we just might have to come down for a visit…

[Conesminded]

May I politely point out that we already have an American version of speed cones. Go to an CDE, HDT or especially an ADT and as long as it isn’t Training Level you’ll see some of the more competitive drivers driving FAST. It’s called Time Obstacles. Folks probably don’t recognize this because it is run in conjunction with Dressage and Hazards and IMHO isn’t considered as important than the other 2 phases. What makes our cones so much more exciting then the UK Scurry is that we get to experience diminishing wheel clearance as we move up in level. Yeah!

Since I started driving back in 1980 I have been to many shows that offered ‘scurry’ classes. The ADS even has rules for scurry classes in the pleasure driving section. So just because they have decided in the UK to make the sport specialized doesn’t mean we can’t do here what has been done for years, American Style. With that said, I completely understand why their sport is set up the way it is. Safety of course is number one.

Go watch the old films of the Combined Driving back in it’s infancy and watch all those folks trying to do a marathon and hazards in a gig. Hello, McFly! Some of the wrecks were crazy. Some of the vehicles they went out on course in were even crazier! We didn’t start out doing the sport with marathon vehicles, we used ‘what we had’. Battle wagons came about due to necessity. The very first CDE I ever competed in back then was with a pair of ponies put to a Beach Wagon (aka Bronson or surrey). At least I had the sense to take the fringed top off…

Why a pair of ponies? Because it is unsafe to be going hell bent for leather (in the wrong carriage) with out the stability a second person offers and perhaps it might be a little unfair to expect a small pony to do it all by himself? It isn’t that a single pony couldn’t go faster then a pair - it just might not be kind to the pony. Priorities are different among people I guess. I’ve no doubt there are many other factors that led the UK to finally designate ponies and I am glad they did. Finally something real ponies can call their own.

Gladestone held a World Pairs scurry in 1993. It was limited to Advanced Drivers and they did the course in their presentation vehicles. Live Oak has had several novelty scurry classes over the years. The last year I showed there it was limited to Advanced Drivers but divisions were available for single/pair/fours. Most everyone used their presentation vehicles. One lady flipped her Gig in the U. A year after I think someone had problems on the bridge. Maybe the folks in the UK are on to something with their specialized carriages?

David Remley, son of Sue and William Remley of Walnut Hill, drove a pair of Swiss Cobbs for Dr. Leslie Kozsely in a Scurry or two and thrilled spectators every time. I had the pleasure of working with David and being his student and he is the reason I love cones and driving cones FAST and ACCURATE. The stories I could tell! One involved an impromtu scurry with a skeleton break… Wallnut Hill also offers scurry obstacle classes to singles entries in different size divisions. Scurry isn’t really a new thing.

Personally I’d love to see ‘timed obstacles’ offered as a competition by itself keeping the wheel clearance according to level we see in Competitive Driving. I’d also love to see all the other cones classes that are outlined in the ADS rule book with perhaps some minor modifications on some. There are alot of really fun and challenging obstacle classes that lots of new drivers have never seen because (at least here in FL) Pleasure Driving shows almost became extinct over the years. When these shows weren’t so scarce ring classes dominated and only the most popular obstacle formats were used.

While I agree with Don that 40 cm is, for me, WAY TOO WIDE, lets not forget that many folks don’t find this to be the case and they shouldn’t be discourage because some of us like a tight fitting pair of cones. I have a pony that isn’t ready to retire and who’s nick name is King Cone so I think a competition dedicated soley to any type of cones driving - whatever you decide to call it, is a great idea. It might mean he gets to get away from home.

[Conesminded]

I forgot to mention how exciting and fun Driving Darby’s are. That’s some fun and fast driving too. Not to mention that, in so far as I can tell, there are no limitation to size or type of turn out. Everyone can compete. Anyone know the origins? I remember Canada or something.