Teaching a dog horse- sense?

[GrantanaKC]

Can it be done? I adopted my mini poodle a few months ago, and he had a few issues that we dealt with (primarily dominance, he’s good with me, now just practicing transferring the skill set to other humans, he reads people very well!). He’s a great dog, super smart and logical (and also very sensitive to, um, “spirits”, but that’s for another thread alltogether!). But he simply does not “get” that horses are dangerous. My horses are very accepting of the dog, usually, but one got in a mood the other day and kicked out at him. Fortunately missed bc the horse is massive and probably would have killed the dog. He will walk on the horses heel and run underneath the horses. I do my best to keep him away from horses that would really be dangerous to him, but he’s extremely attached (I’ve only had him a few months, so he’s very insecure), and will bark and cry THE WHOLE TIME away. We are working on the separation anxiety separately, but how do I teach him to have a little respect for the horses and give them space? My last rescue came (somehow, miraculously) with horse sense, but I want to teach the new one so I don’t have a heart attack every time we go to the barn.

Anyone have successful techniques they’d like to share? FWIW, he’s been trained using a “tap collar”, which was extremely successful for him even though he’s got an, ahem, stubborn streak…

Thoughts or ideas please! He’s only 15 lbs, so most horses could really do some harm.

[Big_Grey_hunter]

Shock collar. Every time he gets under there feet (or maybe a 10 ft range, pick a distance and stick with it), fry him. No warning buzz, no input from you. Just shock. Be absolutely consistent. Have the remote in hand anytime he’s around horses at first, the so shock is applied 100% of the time he gets too close. As long as you are consistent,stay out of it, and let the shock collar do it’s job, he’ll think horses ‘bite’ and stay out of their way, without having to learn the hard (fatal) way.

[cowboymom]

Totally agree with the shock collar. I have a chi that comes with us on every ride and while she has a lot of horse sense she didn’t have enough to keep her alive and safe. Totally use the shock collar-a kick is So Much Worse.

[GraceLikeRain]

I had a dog with great horse sense and it didn’t save his life in the end. The horse wasn’t even aiming for him. Tall grass. Freak accident. I lost a once in a lifetime dogs at age 3 in a split second. It isn’t something I would wish on anyone.

I would rather have a dog whine in a crate or tackroom then the alternative.

Horse sense does not prevent accidents and it will not save a 15 lb dog if it mets either end of a horse.

[fish]

Another fan of e-collars here. They are real life-savers. It infuriates me that many rescues refuse to adopt out dogs to people who use electric devices insisting, instead, that dogs be kept on leashes or in fenced yards-- despite inbred needs to run, drives to chase or herd, and Houdini-like skills to escape any fence yet invented. What a blessing it is to have my high-energy, high prey-drive dogs conditioned to stay away from horses, roads, poultry-raising neighbors … prone to kill them!!

P.S. I obviously do not believe that locking up dogs (or people), is a good or healthy solution for much of anything. Certainly sometimes we must leave our dogs confined at home for good reason, but I am dismayed by how much those reasons have expanded over the years to the detriment of our dogs and dog-human relationships. I miss the days when dogs and children played together waiting for the school bus, etc., in neighborhoods all over the country, when dogs were not excluded from parks and playgrounds so parents could “exercise” their children and pets together and at the same time… The older I get, the more it seems to me that society operates to segregate animals and people to the detriment of both. It makes me very sad.

[LauraKY]

I have no problem with invisible fence, but a shock collar…no way. Some dogs just don’t come primed with horse sense, some develop it as they get older. Only my lab and my last collie were allowed loose at the barn.

[fish]

[QUOTE=LauraKY;7077304]
I have no problem with invisible fence, but a shock collar…no way. [/QUOTE]

Reasoning here??? I don’t get it. I’m entirely the other way, preferring to have some live rationality behind decisions to shock.

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=fish;7077330]
Reasoning here??? I don’t get it. I’m entirely the other way, preferring to have some live rationality behind decisions to shock.[/QUOTE]

The difference is with invisible fence you are training a boundary with physical markers (flags) and a tone. Not so with a shock collar.

[SuckerForHorses]

Please, please, don’t mix horses and dogs. My cattle dog has “horse sense” and still got kicked in the head, resulting in an open skull fracture, damage to his nasal turbinates, and we are so lucky he even lived. $5000 later and he is looking great…it could’ve ended much worse. He is no longer allowed near anything with hooves ever again. It’s just not worth it.

http://s238.photobucket.com/user/agonyaw/library/RustyFracture5-4-2013

The piece of the skull that got kicked was INSIDE his frontal sinus, kicked back to rest against the front of his brain cavity. It’s difficult to see in the photos, but he literally had a hole in his head, I could see into his frontal sinus and see the bone chunk just sitting in there. Thinking about it now is like reliving a nightmare.

[GraceLikeRain]

[QUOTE=fish;7077296]
What a blessing it is to have my high-energy, high prey-drive dogs conditioned to stay away from horses, roads, poultry-raising neighbors … prone to kill them!![/QUOTE]

Are you saying that your dogs have this conditioning with human supervision or do you believe that without human supervision your dogs have a 100% success rate at never bothering another animal, avoiding all roads, and never causing an ounce of trouble? I believe dogs are intelligent but I don’t think it is fair to ask them to make rational human-like decisions without direction from a person.

[Superminion]

My only concern with the shock collar (and we used one with our JRT when we go to my in-laws camp in the summer time so she could be off leash. Her recall is solid now) is that I would do some work with it BEFORE you put it on him at the barn. The first time I buzzed our JRT (and it was on 2… of 10) she screamed, flipped over backwards, and then bolted. Not exactly the desired reaction when they are on the heels of a horse.

I would invest with a few session with a GOOD trainer to teach you how to use it the way that it’s intended.

Our JRT learned horse sense by being tethered to me. Maybe it wasn’t the best way to go, but it worked really well. The BO also had two really horse savvy, well trained GSDs who I think made a big difference too. She was more into running around and exploring with them then bothering the horses after the first few corrections.

[fish]

[QUOTE=GraceLikeRain;7077428]
Are you saying that your dogs have this conditioning with human supervision or do you believe that without human supervision your dogs have a 100% success rate at never bothering another animal, avoiding all roads, and never causing an ounce of trouble? I believe dogs are intelligent but I don’t think it is fair to ask them to make rational human-like decisions without direction from a person.[/QUOTE]

My dogs are never outside without human supervision.

[fish]

[QUOTE=Superminion;7077446]
My only concern with the shock collar (and we used one with our JRT when we go to my in-laws camp in the summer time so she could be off leash. Her recall is solid now) is that I would do some work with it BEFORE you put it on him at the barn. The first time I buzzed our JRT (and it was on 2… of 10) she screamed, flipped over backwards, and then bolted. Not exactly the desired reaction when they are on the heels of a horse.

I would invest with a few session with a GOOD trainer to teach you how to use it the way that it’s intended.

Our JRT learned horse sense by being tethered to me. Maybe it wasn’t the best way to go, but it worked really well. The BO also had two really horse savvy, well trained GSDs who I think made a big difference too. She was more into running around and exploring with them then bothering the horses after the first few corrections.[/QUOTE]

Of course, dogs must be trained to the shock collar-- after solid training on line so they understand basic commands. Without such training the reaction to the shock collar will, of course, be dangerously unpredictable. There are numerous excellent videos on you tube which explain how this training should be done. I recommend watching lots of them and decide which approach/es you prefer for yourself and your dog.

There is, BTW, rarely any reason to shock a dog so violently that s/he screams, flips over, etc., especially if the dog has been properly trained and sensitized to the collar. My collars have a warning tone and solid enough basics that I rarely have to shock at all. IMO, the usefulness of the e-collar is that it lets the dog know that you CAN and if need be, will, enforce your commands whether they are on lead or not. Prior to the e-collar, I had (and loved to distraction) too many dogs smart enough to know that I couldn’t make them “come here” if they decided not to-- and all too willing to make it a game or, worse yet, go chasing after game (or horses…) despite my futile efforts to call them back.

E-collars are not a substitute for training but a training tool. Like any good and powerful tool, its ultimate usefulness will be determined by the skills of the people wielding it.

Which reminds me-- one of the e-collar’s benefits I most appreciate is being able to maintain reliable control without having to worry about keeping track of all those darned lines, getting burns on my hands as a powerful dog takes off after a squirrel, getting lines tangled as my dog commences play with another leashed dog, etc., etc. The e-collar is an enormous liberator, for both my dog/s and for me. Love it!

[GrantanaKC]

Thanks for the input everyone, I will have to find the charger for his tap collar (similar to a shock collar, just not as strong). He’s been trained to respond to the collar in different situations, just looking for some COTH ideas!

So far as not taking him to the barn… I appreciate the dangers horses provide to dogs and humans, but I work, drive an hour to the barn, ride 2 horses there, and then drive an hour home, he’d spend all of his time locked up! He loves loves loves the barn, I just need to make it safer for him. I’ve had horses and dogs together my whole life, it can work as long as I can teach him. Accidents do happen, but they can happen anywhere at any time, horses not required :(.

[harnessphoto]

IME many dogs only learn once they get kicked. Unfortunately, for a dog that size, a kick could very easily be fatal. I am so so so against shock collars as a general rule, but I have to agree with everyone else advocating their use in this situation. He needs to associate being too close to horses with pain if he’s going to stay safe.

[SuckerForHorses]

IME many dogs only learn once they get kicked.

That is, if they live. And even then it depends on the breed. My ACD still had his snorkel and stitches in his head when I had him on a leash at the barn following his “accident” - as soon as the horses were around, he was on high alert, and when one of the horses started chasing the other around, that dog would’ve been back in there in a heart beat, it didn’t matter that he literally had his skull kicked in only weeks before. Dogs don’t always learn that way; its our responsibility as their owners to prevent them from the dangers that we know exist.

Yes, accidents happen, but why up your odds by bringing a dog to the barn that doesn’t have the horse sense to begin with?

[harnessphoto]

I completely agree. Some dogs need to be kept away from horses because they DON’T have horse sense and it’s too dangerous to let them ‘learn the hard way’. Kicks should be avoided at all costs, but not all dogs can be taught the dangers of horses. I wasn’t advocating that the dog needs to be kicked to learn, or that that method should be employed with any dog, large or small.

[wendy]

I’d never let a dog that size get anywhere near a horse. Even if the dog had “horse sense” (whatever that means) a horse could spook at something else and crush the dog before the dog even knew what had happened, or just accidentally step on the little thing due to not noticing it existed.
is this a boarding barn? cause lots of people HATE IT when other boarders bring dogs to the barn and let them run loose. Leash, confine, or (best option) leave him home.
If it’s your own barn, you can do what you want, of course.
If I was teaching a dog “horse sense”, I’d start off by teaching the dog basic obedience somewhere else, and then keep the dog on a leash at the barn for several weeks, teaching the dog the routine and rewarding for good behavior, then try replacing the leash with the remote collar- if the dog learned his barn manners well during the leash period, you shouldn’t have to use the remote collar more than once or twice, possibly never.

[netg]

Does anyone have more tips on the shock collar usage?

My barn dog (who isn’t allowed in with the horses) got into my horse’s pen yesterday through a fence while my horse was running around playing, and managed to get kicked twice before I got him out. No lasting injury, but certainly scared me!

My horse makes it harder. They share a fenceline, and he loves playing with dogs, so he spends most of his play time acting like a cutting horse to get the dog to react and play with him. When the dog ran up behind him yesterday he only kicked out as a warning, and the dog was playing as well. My horse didn’t get flustered and stopped and turned to look at my dog like “what was THAT about?!” as soon as he stopped barking at him, ears forward and friendly. It was definitely not bad like it could have been, but given our setup I’m not sure if there’s a way for a shock collar to work because I can’t avoid there being a shared fence. We do have an invisible fence on the real fence, so normally he is backed off that fence anyway - the battery ran out yesterday so it wasn’t working (and is now replaced.) However, my horse sticks his head out his stall door and to our dog for kisses, so they still get close there. I could re-run the wire to keep the dog away from the front of the stall door, too, I guess?

Anyway, I did a search and the discussion of the shock collar sounded useful here, as I’ve never had a dog who wasn’t afraid of horses before, and it sounds like a good idea, especially as I want to avoid Marmaduke having another incident like this again. I think my horse actually didn’t nail him hard enough for it to necessarily make enough of a behavioral impact, but don’t want him kicked again!

FYI - this is the dog I rescued after we’d had someone wandering our property with a flashlight at night, and the strongest recommendation from folks was to get a large dog to wander the (fenced) property.

[Big_Grey_hunter]

This is the one circumstance where my dog does NOT get a warning buzz, or any verbal input from me. I don’t want him to avoid horses because I tell him to, I want him to think horse=shock. Basically, pick what boundaries you want the dog to avoid, and shock the seconds he gets within that boundary. Don’t warn him, don’t buzz him, don’t tell him to move, don’t praise him afterwords, just shock until he’s out of the ‘range’ you decided on. Be consistent and don’t make the boundaries overly vague.

For my dog, getting right behind a horse or going under a fence gets a shock. I don’t shock for approaching the front of a horse or the side, because he’s trained to heel next to the horses (he trail rides with me) and that would be too confusing. He gets shocked for going under fences, because the ONLY time he is allowed in/out of a pasture is if I invite him through the gate. That way, I can leave him at the gate to go get my horse without worrying about him following me if I don’t trust the horses in the pasture. It wouldn’t be fair for him to sometimes be allowed under fences and other times get shocked.