Teaching Dog Recall: The High Energetic, High Prey Chase Drive and Intelligent

[Finding_Serenity]

Our 1 1/2 year old puppy (Spitz/GSD? mix) JUMPED our fence last night. Granted it is only an exercise pen height (about 30 inches), but it was always enough to deter her and usually she just pointed or sat while crying to get the bunnies that roam in the bushes around the townhomes where we live.

She has 99% recall at home, in the yard, on lead, and off leash at the dog park. I say 99% as sometimes she does have an attitude and will test us still (at home), or she will get distracted by something at the park and we have to remind her (at the park, so many smells!)

However she seemed to forget everything last night in lieu of the taunting bunnies (they’ll come near the fence line and eat and rub in the grass as they know she can’t get them, boy were they surprised when she jumped the fence!).

She just would.not.come! I tried appealing to just about everything that normally gets her attention but she just kept going. Once the bunnies were gone then it was play time and did keep away (I would walk away, she’d come running up to about a foot away and then dash off even if I didn’t turn around to her). I finally caught her (thank goodness there were no cars on the road!) when some smell distracted her enough for me to get close enough to nab her.

Anyone have any good tips/resources on teaching a dog recall for high intensity moments like chasing prey?

She knows when she’s on the lead and as soon as I put her on it last night, I practiced recall and she came every time as we walked back up to the house. She knows the command, it just all flew out the window at the excitement of being free to chase the bunnies.

Obviously punishment will most likely make her determined to not get caught. The: if she catches me I’ll be punished so I’ll stay away!.. she has already shown propensity for this when she does something she knows is wrong or we are upset with her (she hides in her crate).

Looking into trainers but Mr. Pony’s lovely new “search for the right bit” took some of the dog training budget away. Also looking into a higher fence but she cleared that sucker with a good number of inches to spare (she’s a kangaroo! or should be my next jumper ) and we have to be able to take it down as permanent fences are not allowed on the townhome row we are on.

[threedogpack]

I do have some suggestions.

Go out TO the Bunny Area (henceforth dubbed BA) with her. Work her on sit/come/sit edit: only do one sit/come/sit before you go and hunt with her (on lead at first). Find a clump of grass where Bunny Used to Be and call her over while bending over and pointing. If you have ground hog holes, that’s a happy bonus, hunt those as well. Then call her back, sit/come/sit/treat, go hunting again. Repeat as necessary. When she’s a little less intense about it, drop the lead after the sit/come/sit/treat and go hunting with her.

Games are always more fun if you have someone who even pretends to play them with you.

[Finding_Serenity]

I’ll have to see if I can find ways to get into the area myself as well as ask permission of the neighbors… it’s a combination of overgrown “protected” green space (I know there is poison ivy in there somewhere!) and other people’s yards. I’m waiting for mom to break out into hives as she’s super sensitive to poison ivy. I’ve already bathed the pup so hopefully no oils got spread around the house. We do have a small park that’s wooded nearby, I may be able to get away with that if I can’t get permission from the neighbors for using their yards.

[cowboymom]

I would imagine you could take her to any open space where there might be bunnies and do the activity.

[Finding_Serenity]

Any tips on transitioning to “off lead”? She knows when she’s on the leash vs off the leash… it’s being off the leash that she will not listen to: Come, leave it, stop/wait, her own name, etc.

Again she does very well in the dog park enclosure.

[Anne_FS]

For the recall under distractions, you have to set up great distractions and then reward HUGELY for obedience. The shower of high-end treats has to be spectacular.

And, Captain Obvious here, you really just have to never let her know you can do nothing if she doesn’t come. She knows that now beyond the shadow of a doubt, so you have to be very careful that never happens again.

I’ve had success with high prey drive dogs in teaching an unequivocal “Platz” (Down) command. They drop in their tracks. This is easier for them to deal with - IOW, they have to stop & drop and are still “out there” until you come pick them up, verbally praising all the way out, or then issuing a Recall command.

Training the Down command to be obeyed at a distance works well. In Schutzhund the dogs have a Go Out - you send the dog away from you and after it runs away from you it has to Down on command. Once really trained in this you can stop your dog this way if you think she’s too excited, or has learned to ignore, your Recall command.

[kasjordan]

Maybe not popular, but i used an e collar to reinforce my GSD’s recall. he was 99% at about a year old…one morning, he heard the neighbors dog and decided he was going to visit, paid no attention to me…ran out in the road and stood there. Luckily the car that came was paying attention and stopped. I went and bought the collar that day. Still used positive reinforcement but when that 1% not responding came up again, he got shocked- then when he came back, he got rewarded. He’s perfect off leash now. Very rarely have I shocked him, the beep is enough for the strongest urge he has…it’s like a long arm giving him a bop on the head- Hey you!!

[Anne_FS]

[QUOTE=Finding Serenity;7265280]
Any tips on transitioning to “off lead”? She knows when she’s on the leash vs off the leash… it’s being off the leash that she will not listen to: Come, leave it, stop/wait, her own name, etc.

Again she does very well in the dog park enclosure.[/QUOTE]

Light line. A very light clothesline (do they still make those?) or other line that she’s used to dragging around after a training session. Eventually you shorten it down until it’s just a “tab.”

I had great success with a leash-wise dog in practicing obedience with my leash on and ALSO a fishing line tab the same length. Make a loop or tie a little wooden dowel handle on the end. After unhooking the leash with that obvious click-of-the-snap-yahoo-I’m-free sound, and then proceeding to heel again, poochie was a little surprised to find out she was still attached somehow.

It wouldn’t be fair to entice/encourage the dog to celebrate by zooming off and then correct it, though.

And speaking of that, I notice a lot of dog owners do this - end the training session with a whoop it up invitation to zoom around, thereby convincing the dog that what they just went through was awful and the ending of it is cause for a celebration.

It should be the other way around: not being trained is boring, seeing the leash and collar come out for a training session is the best time of the day!

[cowboymom]

Have to admit, we did the e collar too and it worked perfectly, just as kasjordan said. Mine no longer wears her collar but she has instant recall. I’ve never done it on any of my other dogs though.

[cowboymom]

I’ve used baling twine as a long line before-it’s always around!

Parachute cord is light and strong too.

[wendy]

I too use an ecollar to teach the recall- not as punishment, just to remind the dog you are there, mostly. Tap on the shoulder, pressure. You can even use a vibration instead of the low-level shock if you want to. If you’re using it as reinforcement rather than punishment for non-compliance it’s very humane and gentle. It’s the people who go out and zap dogs with high levels of shock as punishment that give ecollars a bad name. Used correctly, they are excellent, humane tools for getting dogs to be reliable off-leash at all times. If you try the “working level” of shock on yourself, it mostly feels like an uncomfortable tickle or kind of like a bug walking on your skin.

First you find the lowest level on the ecollar that the dog reacts to- a head tilt, or puzzled look. That’s your working level.
Then, you teach the dog how to “turn off” the ecollar by triggering the stim, immediately giving the dog a command the dog is very likely to obey- sit, down, come- and as soon as the dog begins to comply you turn off the stim and reward the dog well. You do this in a quiet, nondistracting setting, a few reps of various basic commands, I’d suggest doing this “teaching phase” for a few minutes a day for about a week. Now the dog is ready to go out and try it in the real world- start with a long line on the dog, stim the dog, recall, as soon as the dog starts to move towards you, turn off the stim and reward the dog vigorously for coming (whatever the dog likes best). Do this only a few times until the dog is briskly coming, and then stop using the stim unless the dog fails to comply immediately. Remove the long line when you think it is wise. If conditions are VERY distracting- aka in hot pursuit of a bunny- you may have to turn the stim up a bit to get the dog to even notice it.

Note you have to teach the dog what the stim means, otherwise dogs will ignore it, think the ground got them, run away in terror, or perhaps attack someone near the dog. They rarely manage to figure out what it means on their own.

as to transition to off leash for general obedience, well, start at home and work off leash and move on from there. Are you using collar corrections or something for training? the leash should be rather irrelevant to the dog and not play much role at all in training other than as a safety net. We like to teach the dog that when the leash comes off, that’s when you pay the most intense attention to mom, because that is when the fun begins. Leash comes off, click and treat for attention. Leash comes off, dog pays attention to mom, the ball gets thrown. Then you have to teach a “dismissal” command to release the dog to its own devices.

I suspect a lot of the behavior you are getting right now is partly age-related; often adolescent dogs go through “I can’t hear you” and “I don’t remember anything you ever taught me” phases.

[Finding_Serenity]

I know she knows she doesn’t have to listen to me, so the obvious comment was a bit mute but I appreciate you stating it just in case. She’s always had attitude and the amount of time I’ve spent training her so she wants to listen is evident of that.

She loves her leash. If I go near the shelf it’s in at all she gets all worked up and excited. We had tried hanging it on the wall and she literally pulled the whole command strip holder off the wall because she wanted to keep bringing it over to us to put on her for walks/training :lol: Very food motivated…

We are off leash at home, in the (fenced) yard, and at the dog park. All of those she’s good with. Again we do have the puppy “I can’t hear you” with a bit of sass where she will purposely avoid looking at you. I swear she rolls her eyes at me when I insist her to do the commands properly.

I don’t really whoop it up for end of her sessions. I praise her and give her a good rub down but generally at that point I just go off and continue whatever activity around the house I was doing at that point or ask her to “Let’s Go” and head back inside from the yard or “Okay!” at the park to release her.

She did large group puppy training, and passed with flying colors. So I know she knows what I’ve taught her. But again that was a controlled, safe environment.

For record She knows (and will reliably perform for treats in those three locations I’ve mentioned, on or off leash):

Come
Sit
Down
Off (as if off me or off the couch)
To your Room (Crate)
Sleep (lay on side)
Roll Over
Paw (Both)
High Five (Both)
Touch
Leave It
Stop (not 100% reliable yet, I use this when we are walking and I need her to stop at a curb when she’s on the extendable leash)
Wait (Replace for stay, she responds to wait better than stay)
Reverse (I did this for fun while on the leash… she knows it means to about face)
Heel ( only on lead, working on this one, she doesn’t like to go at a slow human pace but she will do it)
Let’s Go (separate from come, this is when we both are moving and she’s stopped briefly for a smell)

The release is “Okay”. Our target word (for rewarding) is “Yes”. I have an “aah!” noise for warning.

We can look into the e-collar but we did try one before and she knew when it was on her or not. We have more luck with a “Stop That” spray can than the collar but you can’t use the spray out of doors.

[Kyzteke]

Funny…I just left the “Good Dog Training Books” thread where I was chastised for promoting a method of dog training that, even by the folks who dismissed it, as being 110% reliable in getting a dog to recall or behave off leash.

And here we go…at least 3 people recommending e-collars…but Koehler was cruel? You guys are really too much…

[Houndhill]

OP, I’m reporting this that I posted in the “Best Dog Training Books” thread, in case you didn’t see it:

This is a great DVD, I’ve included some reviews as they address some of the questions raised.

Dogwise is a great place to order DVDs and books.

REALLY RELIABLE RECALL - TRAIN YOUR DOG TO COME WHEN CALLED… NO MATTER WHAT! DVD
by Leslie Nelson (See other books by author)

Publisher: Healthy Dog Productions
Edition: 2004 DVD
Run Time: 90 Min.
ISBN: 897059001108
Item: DTB810P
Ships the next business day.
Summary: Leslie Nelson’s Really Reliable Recall DVD shows easy to follow steps to train your dog to come when called, especially when it really counts - in an emergency! This dog training DVD also contains chapters focusing on difficult to train breeds as well as chapters that can be used by dog trainers during class instruction.

Video Clip:
Click here to preview! (Video opens in a new window)

Price: $29.95
Expanded Description:
From well-known trainer Leslie Nelson! Easy to follow steps to train your dog to come when it really counts, in an emergency. Learn how to build trust and ensure safety. Once trained, the recall works immediately in any situation, no matter what your dog is doing. He doesn’t think, he doesn’t decide, he just comes to you. Contains chapters for difficult to train breeds and for trainers to use in class.

What reviewers are saying…

DOG FANCY
“Offers easy-to-follow steps to teach your dog to come when called. This DVD teaches dog owners and trainers surefire ways to train a dog to come in a any situation, removing the fear of your dog running into the street and traffic. Includes tips on building a trusting relationship with your dog, how to apply the principles of positive dog training, and techniques to reinforce what you’ve taught.”

DOG WORLD
“To successfully have a dog come when called in the face of distraction is one of the most important skills any dog owner can have. Professional dog trainers around the country use Leslie Nelson’s DVD. Nelson’s personal challenge was training her sighthounds to come when called from great distances with great distractions. This program works.” Terry Long

DOGS IN CANADA
“Leslie Nelson, a well-known trainer and instructor throughout North America, trains Whippets and Afghan Hounds. Her DVD… takes you through the steps of teaching your dog to come to you under any circumstances, using operant conditioning. One of my favorite things about the DVD is that she doesn’t bog you down with scientific jargon. She tells you what the skill is called, why it works, and how to do it… Nelson introduces each step and does a brief demo with a variety of dogs, reminding you of what the step is called and of your goal… Throughout the DVD, Nelson offers sound advice on what to do if training isn’t progressing as planned. She has some sound suggestions about how to fix problems – whether you have a puppy or an older dog.” Marie Sawford

[kasjordan]

You can teach hand signals too for all those commands. Mine picked them up super easy and he always keeps an eyeball on me no matter what he’s doing (Part of it is his breed/nature but the other part is waiting/watching for a command) that might keep her attention on you a bit more during higher stress times too. If your dog knows “Leave it” really well, that should stop the chasing right there. The ecollar isn’t a quick fix but it will get behaviors ingrained into her and eventually it won’t matter whether the collar is or off, you’ll have rewarded her enough for listening that she’s looking forward to that and not worried about a reprimand.

[Finding_Serenity]

Thanks for the video tip!

kas: She does know the hand commands for some of them (sit, down, come, too your room/go sit/any “go away” command, paws, touch, roll over, high five)

Leave it (or stop/wait) should have worked, and when it didn’t I felt my gut drop. Then come didn’t work… So I pretty much (Rather than shouting like an idiot and contributing to her ignoring me), I walked between her and the road as by that point she was doing circles around me like we do when we walk. But still would run off/ignore if I engaged. Finally caught her but that’s why I came here for advice.

we will look into the ecollar for off lead training at least.

[cowboymom]

My parents were in a life and death moment like that with one of their dogs and it did not end well, at all. Horrible.

My mom is anguished now, wishing that she had just laid down on the ground (at the side of the road ) and talked baby talk-she knows their dog would have come to her for that. Instead they were so scared they escalated the situation by yelling the dogs name and freaking out and in retrospect they know it made it worse. Their dog was much like yours, usually listened but not every time, not when she didn’t want to.

[Finding_Serenity]

cowboymom: sorry to hear that about your parents. I’m lucky it was late enough no one was on the road and she didn’t decide to run THROUGH the greenspace to the other side (very busy road)

Its one of the reasons why I didn’t yell for her. I knew it would just excite her even more and resorted to just keeping her in sight/off the road until she settled enough I could catch her.

[Kyzteke]

To the OP, at the high risk of everyone chewing my butt for recommending it, try buying Wm Koehler’s book on basic obedience. Read the thread that Houndhill mentions for more info.

Cheaper than an e-collar and FAR more reliable. Just sayin’…

[cowboymom]

Yeah, it was a bad deal, so unexpected. They blew a tire in high traffic (Denver, rush hour) and when my dad got out to fix it the dog pulled out of her collar that my mom was holding and jumped out of the truck with my dad.

<shudder>

OP I was going to suggest too that you definitely raise that fence height (as you’ve probably already figured out)… my chi could jump out of that!