Houndhill – curious – have you actually SEEN the dvd you are recommending? What makes it different than the usual clicker/food method? Have you actually used in a hard case scenarios or do you personally know others who have?
Just wondering…you seem to think highly of it (above the rest). Why?
I do think it’s abit odd that a whole book has to be devoted to this issue…so it must be a real problem for so many people.
Why do you think that is? Honestly…not trying to start something, but wondering…
cowboymom: That’s always hard when something like that happens. We keep her buckled in. As much as she soemtimes tangles herself with her harness, I feel better knowing she’s not going anywhere.
She also seems to have 100% “wait” command on the car seat (I worked with her over the summer on that when we’d visit the creek that was very popular for dogs). Might have to reinforce though now that she’s been “free”.
I’ve watched the really reliable recall DVD. Basically it tells you to reward the dog with high-value food for coming when called. That’s about it. Hopefully you’re doing that already, or if the dog has a high prey drive, chucking a toy when the dog comes might work better.
as to the dog being “collar wise” to the ecollar, that’s a mistake of the owner- you should put the collar on the dog before each walk and not use it for a few weeks so when you DO start using it, the dog doesn’t associate its presence with its use. And just put it on the dog before each walk for months, even if you no longer need to use it. Many people keep them on the dogs for off-leash work forever, just in case.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7265478]
Houndhill – curious – have you actually SEEN the dvd you are recommending? What makes it different than the usual clicker/food method? Have you actually used in a hard case scenarios or do you personally know others who have?
Just wondering…you seem to think highly of it (above the rest). Why?
I do think it’s abit odd that a whole book has to be devoted to this issue…so it must be a real problem for so many people.
Why do you think that is? Honestly…not trying to start something, but wondering…[/QUOTE]
Oh, yes, I own this DVD, have watched it, used it, and know others who have, to very good effect!
Yes, I do think the recall issue is real for many people, and I can well understand why there is a DVD specific to that issue. In fact, there are series of classes devoted to this specific issue that are given in my area.
If you would be open to it, I cannot recommend you buy another source of info more highly!
I watched a dog trainer do exactly as Wendy described. I had no prior personal experience with an ecollar. It worked perfectly on a very sensitive dog that had never had an ecollar on before. There was no fright or yelping - the dog learned about the collar under a non-stressful, rewarding situation. It was eye-opening. I equate it (and have said this before) with the use of a whip in dressage: the horse reacts to the aids, NOT the whip - the whip just kind of reminds them. The ecollar works in the same way: the dog reacts to the command and reward. The ecollar is just a little tap on the shoulder.
Just wanted you to know,OP, if you would prefer not to use a shock collar on your dog, there are other options available which will produce a reliable recall.
Thinking outside the box, but if you feel she knows SIT fairly well, expand on that.
If she becomes 100% reliable with it (and I mean anywhere, anytime, no matter what else is going on) the end result will be that a - she takes off after the bunny b - you yell SIT c - she sits, therefore ending the bunny chase d - you can walk over and clip a leash on.
dogs generally don’t recall (or fail to obey any command) for one of three reasons: they are confused (undertraining), they are distracted, and/or they are under-motivated.
the reason people have so much trouble with the recall is often a combination of all three- I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but dogs don’t speak English, and are just going off the sound you emit. I also don’t know if you noticed, but when practicing the recall people usually speak calmly, but when they really want their dog to come they start shrieking, and it’s very likely the noise you’re emitting sounds nothing like the dog’s actual cue to come (confused dog). Which is why it’s often much easier to teach a dog to come to a whistle than to a voice.
For many dogs, there is nothing on earth you can offer them that is more fun than what they are currently doing (under motivated), and then there is the problem that when they are distracted they may literally not hear you- cats have been shown to “turn off” their ears when focused on a mouse in sight, and many dogs act like they can’t hear you either when highly excited by a sight or a smell.
Yes, you can work very hard on focus, motivation, and with some dogs end up with a very reliable recall- herding dogs, for example, are often easy to teach to recall because they have been bred to pay attention to their handler even while engaged in very exciting activities; other breeds, though, like hounds you may never get a reliable recall using just positive reinforcement. The nose goes down, the ears turn off, the entire existence of the owner vanishes from the dog’s brain.
Which is where the ecollars shine for the recall- it’s right there, it’s impossible to ignore, and it tends to “snap the dog out” of his distraction. It’s not a magic fix- you still have to put in the time and work and reward, reward, reward, but they give you an edge that no other device/method can.
I had rhodesian ridgebacks for 15 years before my current beagle mix. What do they have in common -obsessive hound prey interest and notoriously bad recall. My ridgebacks had excellent recall and Ginger is getting there very nicely. Things I was taught and still use:
Don’t call her if she won’t come. Essentially only call her when you know she’s going to come otherwise go get her. My old trainer observed that your cat has 100% recall when you’re calling them for dinner right? Every time you call when she won’t come you’re sabotaging your recall.
I clicker train attention -unsolicited, offered attention.
Always praise the recall -even if you’re calling your dog back from doing something ridiculously bad praise the recall. Don’t punish him for coming back to you.
Don’t always make recall the end of fun. Send them off again.
I taught a “front” command. Ginger isn’t there yet.
Paula
wait, I thought the BA was next to your yard and she leapt over the fence? That is good?
[QUOTE=kasjordan;7265305]
Maybe not popular, but i used an e collar to reinforce my GSD’s recall. he was 99% at about a year old…one morning, he heard the neighbors dog and decided he was going to visit, paid no attention to me…ran out in the road and stood there. Luckily the car that came was paying attention and stopped. I went and bought the collar that day. Still used positive reinforcement but when that 1% not responding came up again, he got shocked- then when he came back, he got rewarded. He’s perfect off leash now. Very rarely have I shocked him, the beep is enough for the strongest urge he has…it’s like a long arm giving him a bop on the head- Hey you!![/QUOTE]
This ^^^^. E-collar to emphasize disobedience has consequences…then reward for obedience.
Another vote for the shock collar. My border collie/hound mix (adopted at 1 yo) had a fantastic recall… when he wanted to. He’d get on a scent though and just completely ignore us. The last straw was when we lost him in the woods for 2 hours. We finally found him digging out a fox hole less then a 1/4 mile from where we were calling, ignoring us until we literally grabbed his collar. It came down to him spending the rest of his life on a leash, or getting an e-collar.
The first time I used it, I could see him ~50 yards away,eating something and completely blowing me off. I called, then shocked at the lowest setting, gradually increasing the level until I got a response. When he finally felt it, he launched straight in the air yelping, and landed looking around in shock. I called and he ran straight to me. After that he got shocked maybe once a month, usually a beep was enough. After 3 years I lost the remote (oops), but he understands now that recalls aren’t optional, so I didn’t bother replacing it.
[QUOTE=threedogpack;7265901]
wait, I thought the BA was next to your yard and she leapt over the fence? That is good?[/QUOTE]
She’s good when I’m there, and we’re doing commands. If I’m out there, and I tell her to “leave it” while she’s behind the fence/sit/down/come etc… she will listen.
I wasn’t out there. We almost never go out with her as she’s never attempted to jump the fence before.
This evening when I went out with her and she started to get excited over the rabbits I told her to “leave it” and then “sit”. She did both without any trouble.
I think part of it is age, and part of it is just the excitableness. We’re going to buy a long lead and work on recall. Not a major fan of shock collars, they didn’t work too well on her before so we’ll keep it as an option when I exhaust all others.
[QUOTE=Finding Serenity;7266021]
She’s good when I’m there, and we’re doing commands. If I’m out there, and I tell her to “leave it” while she’s behind the fence/sit/down/come etc… she will listen.
I wasn’t out there. We almost never go out with her as she’s never attempted to jump the fence before.
This evening when I went out with her and she started to get excited over the rabbits I told her to “leave it” and then “sit”. She did both without any trouble.
I think part of it is age, and part of it is just the excitableness. We’re going to buy a long lead and work on recall. Not a major fan of shock collars, they didn’t work too well on her before so we’ll keep it as an option when I exhaust all others.[/QUOTE]
going out with her is what I’d do then. Easy fix.
By all means, if you’re not comfortable with the shock collar don’t do it. It’s not for everyone or every dog.
If you haven’t already, I’d also add in teaching a collar grab; my little BC mix used to play terrible keep away, and it’s been a saving grace for him. I shaped him (yes, with a clicker) to put his neck into my outstretched hand. Now, if he’s giving me a look like he might duck and dash, all I have to do is hold my hand out, say “collar”, and he thrusts his collar into my hand for me. It’s a fun cue that usually leads to games for him, so he’s happy to give it to me as an alternative to playing keep away.
Another vote for the shock collar. My border collie/hound mix (adopted at 1 yo) had a fantastic recall… when he wanted to. He’d get on a scent though and just completely ignore us. The last straw was when we lost him in the woods for 2 hours. We finally found him digging out a fox hole less then a 1/4 mile from where we were calling, ignoring us until we literally grabbed his collar. It came down to him spending the rest of his life on a leash, or getting an e-collar.
The first time I used it, I could see him ~50 yards away,eating something and completely blowing me off. I called, then shocked at the lowest setting, gradually increasing the level until I got a response. When he finally felt it, he launched straight in the air yelping, and landed looking around in shock. I called and he ran straight to me. After that he got shocked maybe once a month, usually a beep was enough. After 3 years I lost the remote (oops), but he understands now that recalls aren’t optional, so I didn’t bother replacing it.
[QUOTE=cowboymom;7266078]
By all means, if you’re not comfortable with the shock collar don’t do it. It’s not for everyone or every dog.[/QUOTE]
Totally agree, if someone doesn’t spend the time using the collar correctly, it will not work as it’s meant to.
Worked with her a little last night and this morning out in the (fenced) yard when she got excited. She does a lot of back and forth where she will obey, but only for a short time and goes right back to seeing the bunnies and being excited. Something to work on but at least I’m starting to get through to her. At one point I told her to leave it and sit, and she did, wiggling and whining the entire time at the bunnies. Ate the treat without even looking at it :lol: Need to find something a bit more tantalizing than her favorite I guess!
It’s getting super cold here which is why we all want her to be out there by herself without us worrying.
[QUOTE=Finding Serenity;7266472]
Ate the treat without even looking at it :lol: [/QUOTE]
Aha! 
No treat unless she changes her focus from bunnies to looking at you. I realize that you’re rewarding the sitting as opposed to chasing, but she can now progress to the other. Sounds like you’re doing a good job. Practice practice practice. Consistency Consistency Consistency.
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