Borrow someones huge, unused (no horses in it) fenced pasture. One where she cant see the fence line and work in there. id go to different farms each time so she doesn’t know their are boundaries. Id pay a modest fee to the owners $20 ?, so the owners know you are legit and are happy to let you use their pasture. Then train away whichever way you chose. its a safe off leash environment.
[QUOTE=Anne FS;7266488]
Aha! 
No treat unless she changes her focus from bunnies to looking at you. I realize that you’re rewarding the sitting as opposed to chasing, but she can now progress to the other. Sounds like you’re doing a good job. Practice practice practice. Consistency Consistency Consistency.[/QUOTE]
Oh dear you caught me! :lol: and this is why I like asking for help She moves so quickly from one thing to another it’s nearly impossible to treat her when she’s excited but you are right, I need to work on her focus as well as the stop/sit/drop… whatever you might call it… command.
Might get out my clicker again, It’s faster than my treating and target words. I started using it for the other items before so she does know what it means, she likes to try to take it from me to make it click :lol: Might help with getting her at the right moment at least.
Horse pastures: Unless it’s no climb or has electric wires she will slip through it as she RUNS and would probably find the fence line here. Most pastures around here are on the smaller side as a lot of farms do rotation due to limited space. She is able to slide (like a baseball player)/jump (Between the bench and the table!) into picnic tables at the dog park when she’s overwhelmed.
You did well. You’re shaping the behavior - you first rewarded for the stop & sit, which was better than her running after the bunnies. Now you build on that by asking for a little more. Slow but sure.
I know every has to do what they’re comfortable with but I’m so glad it took ONE day of the shock collar to settle this with my dog. She had been running off to chase deer, bolting from our side. It took just one session. She’s not cowed by her collar when she wears it or when I call her now (with or without the collar), she runs to me all goofy and happy and sits by my side (and gets a treat). We didn’t have to practice, practice, practice coming when called, we can spend that time doing other things.
I think e-collars get a bad rap when they can be such a quick, effective tool.
be very very careful of the not treating when she comes to you. You can lose the little bit of recall you have.
personally, I’d call her and treat even if she doesn’t know she ate it, then send her back out, call back etc. till she finally figures out that you are the best thing around and the BA is unavailable.
I’ve done this with many many dogs who had no focus and all of them learned by 5-10 treats that coming & staying = play and treats. I would USE the BA as a distraction instead of forbidding it. Check out how Denise Fenzi does it with her new puppy:
http://denisefenzi.com/2013/11/12/brito-more-shaped-retrieve-and-beginning-proofing/
I’d also take a tug toy out, and play with her for a few seconds before sending her away to the unavailable bunnies.
[QUOTE=Houndhill;7265623]
Oh, yes, I own this DVD, have watched it, used it, and know others who have, to very good effect!
Yes, I do think the recall issue is real for many people, and I can well understand why there is a DVD specific to that issue. In fact, there are series of classes devoted to this specific issue that are given in my area.
If you would be open to it, I cannot recommend you buy another source of info more highly![/QUOTE]
I do appreciate it (seriously), as I have no issue with learning other methods. In my horse training I have investigated everything from NHS (all the guys…from Parelli to BB to Ray Hunt to just about everybody), classical training and everything inbetween.
I have always felt a good trainer (like a good teacher) should have many, many tools in their tool box.
I AM interested in the video, but not for $30 bucks. As I mentioned, all my dogs are “good enough” in terms of recall for where I live and what I do with them…and I just used basic, baby stuff in terms of training (you know, when they are pups calling them in a controlled setting then praising the snot o/o them).
Since 3 o/o 4 are heelers, I have a hard time getting them to get away from me in the first place:lol:, so recall is really not much of an issue. The pit bull is THE most mellow, and he is actually very good about recall.
Most of my resources are spent on horse training these days.
But, from an intellectual POV, I would like to see more…but if the basis is just giving them food when they come back…well, I don’t want to sound like the big expert, but seriously…who needs a book/dvd to tell you to do that?
However, there ARE several outfits that offer RENTALS of various horse dvds…is there such a resource for dog training stuff? If so, I would most definitely like to explore it.
I still have my clicker!
[QUOTE=Finding Serenity;7266506]
Oh dear you caught me! :lol: and this is why I like asking for help:D She moves so quickly from one thing to another it’s nearly impossible to treat her when she’s excited but you are right, I need to work on her focus as well as the stop/sit/drop… whatever you might call it… command. [/QUOTE]
OP, I confess I just skimmed over one of your posts, but are you saying your dog HAS been trained using clicker/treats, but when seriously distracted she ignores you?
Is that right?
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7266799]
OP, I confess I just skimmed over one of your posts, but are you saying your dog HAS been trained using clicker/treats, but when seriously distracted she ignores you?
Is that right?[/QUOTE]
She’s trained in the “clicker” style. I started using a clicker but I found it easier with our puppy trainer to use a word with a treat.
This is the first time she’s ignored me completely. More recently she sees if she can get away with ignoring me in the house but our training has also gotten less structured as she’s been so good with it I’ve just stuck with reinforcing. Outside (fenced yard or on walks) she listens the majority of the time, with me rarely having to “up” my command, and that is only when she’s in ramped up “MUST PLAY” mode.
Best related scenario is when she’s out in the dog park. Her recall is near 100%. On occasion, she does get distracted and may have a wandering path, but she always does make it over to me. She’s never been a dog that “bounds over to you and loves on you”. Very independent… I sometimes joke she’s half cat on her father’s side.
[QUOTE=Finding Serenity;7266845]
She’s trained in the “clicker” style. I started using a clicker but I found it easier with our puppy trainer to use a word with a treat.
This is the first time she’s ignored me completely. More recently she sees if she can get away with ignoring me in the house but our training has also gotten less structured as she’s been so good with it I’ve just stuck with reinforcing. Outside (fenced yard or on walks) she listens the majority of the time, with me rarely having to “up” my command, and that is only when she’s in ramped up “MUST PLAY” mode.
Best related scenario is when she’s out in the dog park. Her recall is near 100%. On occasion, she does get distracted and may have a wandering path, but she always does make it over to me. She’s never been a dog that “bounds over to you and loves on you”. Very independent… I sometimes joke she’s half cat on her father’s side.[/QUOTE]
Well, as someone who had a dog not respond INSTANTLY when I called and was hit by a car as a result (died in my arms, coughing up blood while trying to comfort ME as I was crying), you tend to want a reliable INSTANT recall after that.
And, for the record, this dog has been (supposedly) obedience trained and was working on Schuzhound (spelling?) work. He also obeyed me “the majority of the time”. He was my first Bull Terrier (also very independent type dogs). The scenario was he and my GSD (Koehler trained btw) and I were going out the door to get in the car…a walk of about 25 ft. I lived in the suburbs where (most of the time) there was very little traffic. But this time, there was a cat in the yard and a car coming way too fast. BOTH dogs took after the cat. I called and the GSD stopped INSTANTLY. The bullie did not.
It took only one single mistake of an INSTANT to kill him…and even though it happened over 40 years ago, that memory is burned into me.
As for advice…If you are bound to the clicker stuff, start retraining her using planned distractions and be ready to correct.
If you want a quick fix, by all means try an e-collar.
If you want a dependable, INSTANT recall and stay, (even when they are “ramped up” try Koehler, but be willing to work at it…it is NOT a “quick” fix, but it sure does work.
ETA: don’t listen to idiot trainers or idiot people who say it’s cruel. It isn’t. If you decide to try it, get the original book and follow it step by step. Don’t leave anything out or skip steps. Otherwise you are just wasting your time.
The ignoring, as I said, is recent. As in the past week or two recent. I was already planning on getting her back on track and have a plan for the response time. I think part of it’s just that I had phased out of using treats but she’s now realizing that she just isn’t getting anything for responding, and part of it is age/her extremely independent nature. When she was younger, she wouldn’t leave our sides she was so terrified of the out-of-doors and wouldn’t dream of leaving us.
Please don’t call anyone idiots. My pup’s trainer severly dislikes shock collars, but that doesn’t make her an idiot, she just prefers a different method. Same with other styles. Depending on the animal and how they perceive something, ANY method can be cruel. If they get you where you want to go, and it’s done properly, it’s a good method. Calling others idiots for knocking an idea is on the same level as they are.
Thank you for the suggestion.
[QUOTE=Finding Serenity;7266889]
Please don’t call anyone idiots. [/QUOTE]
thank you!
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7266780]
I do appreciate it (seriously), as I have no issue with learning other methods. In my horse training I have investigated everything from NHS (all the guys…from Parelli to BB to Ray Hunt to just about everybody), classical training and everything inbetween.
I have always felt a good trainer (like a good teacher) should have many, many tools in their tool box.
I AM interested in the video, but not for $30 bucks. As I mentioned, all my dogs are “good enough” in terms of recall for where I live and what I do with them…and I just used basic, baby stuff in terms of training (you know, when they are pups calling them in a controlled setting then praising the snot o/o them).
Since 3 o/o 4 are heelers, I have a hard time getting them to get away from me in the first place:lol:, so recall is really not much of an issue. The pit bull is THE most mellow, and he is actually very good about recall.
Most of my resources are spent on horse training these days.
But, from an intellectual POV, I would like to see more…but if the basis is just giving them food when they come back…well, I don’t want to sound like the big expert, but seriously…who needs a book/dvd to tell you to do that?
However, there ARE several outfits that offer RENTALS of various horse dvds…is there such a resource for dog training stuff? If so, I would most definitely like to explore it.
I still have my clicker!;)[/QUOTE]
I hear you about the cost of books and DVDs! Our local kennel club has a lending library, but it seem they never have the one I want.
If you PM me your address, I would be glad to loan you my copy of Leslie’s Really Reliable Recall DVD. No hurry to return it, my DVD player is currently on the fritz.
I just ordered three new books on obedience training from Dogwise: Volume 2 of “Steppin Up To Success With Terri Arnold” (I already have Book 1), “Competition: A Balancing Act” by Byron, and “Building Blocks for Performance” by Anderson. These three came to over $100! Yikes!
I would post them to the thread on books, but they are more oriented toward competition obedience, and the OP on that thread seems more interested in general training of adult dogs, and Agility fundamentals, and I haven’t read them yet so don’t feel comfortable recommending them to her.
They were suggested by folks on"Ring Tested Obedience", a really good mailing list I am on which has unique rules. You cannot post in reply to someone who has an issue unless you have titled a dog to that level, and you must include the highest titles you have achieved in obedience with your signature. It seems to work quite well.
I am trying to get a young wolfhound ready for obedience competition. She achieved her Beginner Novice title with decent scores, and I am trying to get her ready for Novice B. we just entered a trial for December, but I had to pull her because she came in season, fortunately before entries closed so I should be able to get a refund. Plus I am a bit relieved, as her heeling is not quite the way I would like it, (hence the books). I understand that it can take a year to really perfect heeling. I was told at one seminar that in the UK, they spend a year with the dogs heeling backwards! The standard of competition for the top dogs does have their heads way up and they are trotting oddly, almost prancing. We do not aspire to that, but I would like her head up and a bit more precision and eye contact than we have.
Also, Kyzeke, I wanted to say I am very sorry to hear of the loss of your beloved Bull Terrier.
[QUOTE=Finding Serenity;7266889]
The ignoring, as I said, is recent. As in the past week or two recent. I was already planning on getting her back on track and have a plan for the response time. I think part of it’s just that I had phased out of using treats but she’s now realizing that she just isn’t getting anything for responding, and part of it is age/her extremely independent nature. When she was younger, she wouldn’t leave our sides she was so terrified of the out-of-doors and wouldn’t dream of leaving us.
Please don’t call anyone idiots. My pup’s trainer severly dislikes shock collars, but that doesn’t make her an idiot, she just prefers a different method. Same with other styles. Depending on the animal and how they perceive something, ANY method can be cruel. If they get you where you want to go, and it’s done properly, it’s a good method. Calling others idiots for knocking an idea is on the same level as they are.
Thank you for the suggestion.[/QUOTE]
You are right…I stand corrected…but if you read some of the other thread, you may get abit more insight as to WHY I finally lost patience with those who (basically) had no idea of what they were talking about.
So let’s say “don’t listen to the uninformed”…is that more PC?
And someone else correctly noted that part of this could be her age. Dogs got through that “adolescence” just like people. John Lyons (famous horse guy) said you have to count on repeating a command/exercise over 1000 times for a gelding to really be half-way solid on it.
I think he said it was something like 3000 times for a stallion.
I know I keep saying I had my dogs off-leash for 3 years in LA, and that’s true, but these were older dogs (I think they were 5 & 7 at the time) and I KNEW they were 110% solid.
IMO, that can take up to 3 yrs…and that is working with them fairly regularly.,
[QUOTE=Houndhill;7267027]
Also, Kyzeke, I wanted to say I am very sorry to hear of the loss of your beloved Bull Terrier.[/QUOTE]
Thank you…it was along time ago, but I will never forget it. It was one of the most horrific experiences I’ve ever been through…especially when that dog raised up his poor, battered head to lick ME and try to offer comfort…
I don’t even want to think about it again…
You deserve a special award for the classiness of your posts.
There is a rental service for dog videos (BowWow Flix or something similar), but they are not run like regular video rental places, and the people producing the videos get zero proceeds from it. I know a lot of trainers producing videos who are driving around in 15 year old cars and working their butts off in cold arenas to pay their bills, so I refuse to use the service. I know some trainers who will no longer make videos because of this.
[QUOTE=BostonBanker;7267140]
You deserve a special award for the classiness of your posts.
There is a rental service for dog videos (BowWow Flix or something similar), but they are not run like regular video rental places, and the people producing the videos get zero proceeds from it. I know a lot of trainers producing videos who are driving around in 15 year old cars and working their butts off in cold arenas to pay their bills, so I refuse to use the service. I know some trainers who will no longer make videos because of this.[/QUOTE]
Well, nobody goes into animal training expecting to get rich. I’m driving a '91 Geo Metro myself…
I can see your frustrations Kyzteke. I just know how when one resorts to name calling that it makes one’s own suggestions seem… invalid. Losing a pet, especially a traumatic loss, is always hard. I’ve grown up with animals always in the household so I’m no stranger to traumatic losses. It is always hard.
I will take a look into all the information, including the book’s methods. I was able to turn her out tonight and stand at the door. Told her to leave it once, then “go potty” and she did so each time. Only once did she threaten to run away when I called for her to come in and she stopped as soon as I threw out my “aaah!” and reiterated the command.
I’ve been giving her a clicker and cookies when she comes inside now (I purposely call her to create a positive learning association with coming when called). If she knows I get out treats she is a dream so now I’m going to associate coming in with the food.
Thanks so far everyone 
You’ve all got a lot of great ideas and I’m hopefully going to be able to work her so I don’t have to worry.
My dog is trained to recall with a clicker AND I use an e-collar when off leash. There is no reason you can’t use them both.
First of all, of course you need to proof the behavior so you KNOW the dog understands. That is when the clicker is great. But if you have, for example, a hunting breed like I do - a click or a treat is not a big incentive in comparison to following the prey animal. That is where an e-collar is very useful. It does not have to be set high, just set to “annoying” - like riding a horse. You call for “come” and apply pressure until the dog turns to you. THEN reward like crazy.
Yes - e-collars can be a cheap “shortcut” for someone that doesn’t want to put the training in the dog. Or they can be a truly reliable backup just in case your dog doesn’t recall 100%. We have a bell on my dog’s e-collar because he runs/hunts in deep cover, but if he were in competition he could not wear the collar. But we would put the bell on his regular collar and I would bet he wouldn’t remember the difference - so that is a tip for anyone that has a dog that might be “collar savvy”.
