Teaching horse to stand still for mounting.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Flash44;8135695]
Training usually works better than bribing. With training, you end up with a horse that habitually looks to you for guidance and is calm if it is not sure what to do.[/QUOTE]
I am pretty sure that the poster meant ‘bribing’ tongue in cheek. What is really happening when you give a horse a reward you are conditioning it for a response.

The horse learns there is a positive reinforcement for a desired behavior. Positive reinforcement is proven to be the most effective method of training in animals, in that it creates a lasting behavioral modification. A secondary reinforcer (think clicker training) also works very well in conjuction with the primary reinforcement (in this case, treats).

I have never in all of my time working with horses heard that horses should not be fed treats because they associate it with taking food from you. I have heard other reasons why you should not feed a horse treats but this is not one of them. This sounds like an older methodology, remnant of dog training – even now trainers are making a step back towards reinforcing behaviors with treats because it has been proven to consistently develop a conditioned and reliable response.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Flash44;8135695]
Training usually works better than bribing. With training, you end up with a horse that habitually looks to you for guidance and is calm if it is not sure what to do.[/QUOTE]

There are several ways to use treats, not all are mere “bribing”.

Learning theories like operant conditioning, clicker training one, is a way to learn the concepts behind uses of treats.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Flash44;8135695]
Training usually works better than bribing. With training, you end up with a horse that habitually looks to you for guidance and is calm if it is not sure what to do.[/QUOTE]

thinking more on this, and expanding - it is important to understand how to shape behaviors, and how certain stimuli can make a behavior more likely to happen. it sounds like maybe you don’t know how well treats can work in your favor, flash44.

the first way is reinforcement - reinforcement is essentially any event (or consequence) that strengthens a behavior it follows. there are two basic types of reinforcement.
positive reinforcement follows a behavior, usually positive (hence the name) or favorable outcomes that are presented after a behavior. examples include praise & reward.
example: you bring the horse to the mounting block and ask him to stand. when he stands, he is praised or rewarded.
negative reinforcement is the removal of unfavorable (or negative) events/responses after the behavior is presented. this is NOT to be confused with punishment. in negative reinforcement, the response wanted is strengthened by the removal of unpleasant stimuli.
example: you ask horse to stand, he moves over - you tap/poke his flank repeatedly until he moves over.

operant conditioning ‘combines’ these two practices, but also includes punishment. operant conditioning is one of the BEST ways to shape a behavior you want, especially a multi-step behavior that requires several blocks of conditioning to teach the appropriate response. an example of a multi-step behavior is teaching a horse to do a trick such as waving a flag or picking up an object and putting it in a bucket.

in operant conditioning, the actions that are followed by reinforcement will either strengthen or weaken the likelihood of a response happening again in the future. clicker training is probably the easiest way to understand operant conditioning - the ‘click’ is the reward (positive reinforcement) but when no click is offered after a behavior, it is a punishment - ignoring the horse when it does not do the behavior you want can be considered a punishment.

example: you are teaching the horse to stand at the mounting block, and he understands the premise of clicker training already (aka you have taught him other tricks). you ask him to stand and he instead offers a previous trick (bow, kiss, you name it). you ignore the behavior, do not click or reward him - the punishment will make the likelihood of the behavior happening again decreased.

there are also two types of punishment, positive and negative.
positive punishment (sounds like an oxymoron, right? :lol: ) is the presentation of an unpleasant/unfavorable outcome/event in order to weaken the response that precedes it. an example of positive punishment is “spanking”, or in a horse’s case, cropping or whipping.
negative punishment, or punishment by removal, occurs when a favorable event or outcome is removed after a (unwanted) behavior occurs. an example of negative punishment is clicker training when you do not respond to the horse after an unwanted behavior is shown.

easy way to remember: reinforcement STRENGTHENS the behavior’s occurrence. punishment WEAKENS the behavior’s occurrence.

[kaitsmom]

[QUOTE=showmanship;8135639]
I don’t meant to hijack the thread, but I don’t think I’ve heard of those things before? Just showing curiosity, because I am only 5ft and my big man is right around 16, 16.1hh so I absolutely hate getting on from the ground because of the pull on him. Actually, I never get on from the ground. But this still peaked my curiosity just for the mere chance that we could be on the trail and I’d have to get off of him… :)[/QUOTE]

https://www.google.com/search?q=mounting+aid+for+horses&client=ms-android-verizon&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=INJHVcDwK8m6ogTCggE&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=360&bih=592

They are talking about one of these. I have been thinking about getting one, but honestly I think he needs to just learn to let me mount. I know it isn’t pain related because I am not even getting my foot in the stirrup and he stands perfectly fine if someone is holding him. My other horse will let me mount from any surface I stand him next too.

[aktill]

The reason I moved away from extensive use of food rewards is to make sure I always had a good read on where the horse’s motivation level was at any time.

If you set up a deal whereby the horse gets rewarded externally (ie with a treat etc) for doing what you’d like, you get to know whether they value the treat or reward more (ie for what you want) then for not doing it and not getting a reward. Fine, but it doesn’t tell you squat about the horse’s opinion about you.

When you’re in a situation where the reinforcers go out the window (the horse is stressed etc), you haven’t necessarily changed your leadership value.

There are some times in my horse’s lives when they have to do something because I said so, and for no other reason. If I’ve demonstrated a dependable pattern of making good decisions that my horse can live with, that’s not a big deal. If they’ve always had the choice of “cookie or not”, then it’s unfair to suddenly say “do it because”.

Purist clicker trainers will also tell you to ignore the behavior you don’t want, and merely reward what you do. In doing so, you’re also implicitly saying that they merely don’t get a reward if they don’t do what you want. Fine when all is well, but if you’re at a trail head 8 hours from home and your horse doesn’t want to load (or is at home and bleeding or colicky and won’t load to go to the vet) AND DOESNT WANT THE REINFORCER, then what do you do? Break the established rules and bring in punishment, which leads at best to surprise and at worst to resentment?

So personally, I’m not opposed to treat rewards for inconsequential behaviors (ie, touching a target, etc), but for safety things (like mounting) I use negative reinforcement.

If you get dumped away from home and have to get on in an non-ideal situation (ie, you’re hurt and hours from home, horse is upset), do you really want to play the cookie dance game?

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=aktill;8135778]

So personally, I’m not opposed to treat rewards for inconsequential behaviors (ie, touching a target, etc), but for safety things (like mounting) I use negative reinforcement.[/QUOTE]

what is your negative reinforcement for not standing still for mounting? do you mean you use punishment? the problem i’ve found with punishment is that the unwanted behavior is always going to return once you remove punishment from the equation.

i think it is important to gauge what responses are appropriate when - for clicker training, i use it to build a trick or train a response. most horses, once they understand the premise of clicker training, only need to be reinforced with treats periodically – most horses enjoy the puzzle and enjoy actively trying to figure out what you are asking.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=aktill;8135778]
The reason I moved away from extensive use of food rewards is to make sure I always had a good read on where the horse’s motivation level was at any time.

If you set up a deal whereby the horse gets rewarded externally (ie with a treat etc) for doing what you’d like, you get to know whether they value the treat or reward more (ie for what you want) then for not doing it and not getting a reward. Fine, but it doesn’t tell you squat about the horse’s opinion about you.

When you’re in a situation where the reinforcers go out the window (the horse is stressed etc), you haven’t necessarily changed your leadership value.

There are some times in my horse’s lives when they have to do something because I said so, and for no other reason. If I’ve demonstrated a dependable pattern of making good decisions that my horse can live with, that’s not a big deal. If they’ve always had the choice of “cookie or not”, then it’s unfair to suddenly say “do it because”.

Purist clicker trainers will also tell you to ignore the behavior you don’t want, and merely reward what you do. In doing so, you’re also implicitly saying that they merely don’t get a reward if they don’t do what you want. Fine when all is well, but if you’re at a trail head 8 hours from home and your horse doesn’t want to load (or is at home and bleeding or colicky and won’t load to go to the vet) AND DOESNT WANT THE REINFORCER, then what do you do? Break the established rules and bring in punishment, which leads at best to surprise and at worst to resentment?

So personally, I’m not opposed to treat rewards for inconsequential behaviors (ie, touching a target, etc), but for safety things (like mounting) I use negative reinforcement.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think operant conditioning, if used with treats or not, is what you think it is.

You do work for your check, but you also work for other reasons than your check and at times volunteer without getting paid.

When you work with operant conditioning principles, you will find that treats tend to become at times not even much of a motivator, your horse or dog will work with you because they have learned to love to work with you or love the work itself and will practically disregard the treats.

There is more than treats to those concepts.

[kaitsmom]

I just want to make it clear that I never tried moving the mounting block to him until about 5 sessions of trying the other way. Yesterday I tried just standing beside him on the mounting block and giving him love with and without the saddle on. I even put the mounting block in the wash rack to stand on while I bathed him. He stood perfectly still until I stepped up. Ugh. I will have to keep trying these recommendations. I did put him next to the fence and mount him a few times before putting him up just so he would see it wasn’t going to stop me. He totally doesn’t care one bit that I am mounting and is fine under the saddle after I am in it… beyond frustrating.

I will have to look around for a fence at a good height and try that. I am trying to fix the issue and I have a chance at my new barn with an arena and being closer so I can go every day.

I got him in September after he spent 2+ years in the cow pasture and it seems the only handling he had was to be smacked in the face if he tried to come through the gate. I have worked through a lot with him so this issue seems so trivial to me. It took 2 months before he would follow me through a gate without a lot of convincing. I worked on everything myself, but I had someone there to hold him while I mounted and dismounted because I had fractured my leg and it was healing and I need to dismount onto the mounting block so that I wouldn’t land with a lot of force on my leg. I am so mad at myself that I didn’t anticipate this problem developing and start working on it then.

[kaitsmom]

Treats are not an option. He had gone hungry too long in his life and no matter how well fed he is now his brain turns off and feeding frenzy takes over. He would be searching me for treats any time a mounting block was nearby. Lol

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=kaitsmom;8135795]
Treats are not an option. He had gone hungry too long in his life and no matter how well fed he is now his brain turns off and feeding frenzy takes over. He would be searching me for treats any time a mounting block was nearby. Lol[/QUOTE]

one of the first things you teach a horse to do during clicker training is not to ‘mug’ for treats. YMMV, but you’re throwing a very valuable tool out of the tool kit by not being willing to try it.

[kaitsmom]

My trainer’s solution is to put him in a corner and mount him several times and then move out of the corner. Yeah. You guessed it. Fine in the corner side stepping machine away from it. I know I can just grab a handful of mane and hurry on as he walks off against the fence, but I am not making life any easier for either of us. I don’t want to make him crazy either though.

[aktill]

[QUOTE=Bluey;8135786]
I don’t think operant conditioning, if used with treats or not, is what you think it is.

You do work for your check, but you also work for other reasons than your check and at times volunteer without getting paid.

When you work with operant conditioning principles, you will find that treats tend to become at times not even much of a motivator, your horse or dog will work with you because they have learned to love to work with you or love the work itself and will practically disregard the treats.

There is more than treats to those concepts.[/QUOTE]

In happy land, yes. When the horse doesn’t want the treat and you have to get them to do something though, what do you do?

I worked with almost pure clicker training for a bunch of years when I first started out, and then one day my horse decided he wanted to stay at a clicker clinic and wouldn’t load to come home. 4 DAYS and 3 trailers later, I finally got him home. Alexandra Kurland couldn’t load him during the clinic with clicker work. He was fine to trailer, and presumably just didn’t want to come home because he was having fun…what then?

It was that weekend where I looked at another mentor who had happy, enthusiastic, motivated horses trained without external positive reinforcement, and settled on that path.

To each their own, though, as always.

[aktill]

[QUOTE=kaitsmom;8135795]
Treats are not an option. He had gone hungry too long in his life and no matter how well fed he is now his brain turns off and feeding frenzy takes over. He would be searching me for treats any time a mounting block was nearby. Lol[/QUOTE]

This is actually the only time I use clicker training now…to avoid creating the muggy horse.

If you establish the firm rule that the horse never gets a treat without some signal, they never mug you. They likewise wouldn’t dare try if they respected your space bubble.

If you just avoid hand feeding etc, it’s not really addressing the problem, it’s ignoring it and leaving a hole.

What happens if a little kid comes along with a handful of grass, unsupervised?

[kaitsmom]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8135797]
one of the first things you teach a horse to do during clicker training is not to ‘mug’ for treats. YMMV, but you’re throwing a very valuable tool out of the tool kit by not being willing to try it.[/QUOTE]

I have tried it, I have had a professional trainer that is very experienced try it with him. She spent several days with him. Not on mounting or anything, but just on clicker training and basic ground manners. Even she said treats were not a good idea for him. When I say he would be searching me…I don’t mean he would be mouthing me or anything. I mean his brain turns OFF and he could care less about anything but the treat so learning flies out the window. Scratches work better because he can focus on what you are teaching. Obviously he can be taught without teeats because he has learned so much in a short amount of time.

here is a better example. When I was working through his fear of passing through a gate I used treats. Obviously a horse that was starved would do anything for something to eat. Problem was he wasn’t learning anything about walking through the gate. He didn’t even realize he was walking through the gate. 100% of his focus was on the treat so he didn’t even realize he had over come a fear and then the next time I tried to walk him through the gate it was just as terrifying. Sure I could have kept carrying a treat every time I pulled him, but I wanted him to learn to walk through the gate without fear.

if I used treats for mounting it would go something like this…oh a treat…munch munch munch…oh when did you get up there? Did it solve my problem of being able to mount? Yes, but it didn’t teach him anything.

[kaitsmom]

[QUOTE=aktill;8135819]
This is actually the only time I use clicker training now…to avoid creating the muggy horse.

If you establish the firm rule that the horse never gets a treat without some signal, they never mug you.

If you just avoid hand feeding etc, it’s not really addressing the problem, it’s ignoring it and leaving a hole.

What happens if a little kid comes along with a handful of grass, unsupervised?[/QUOTE]

He gets plenty of treats when work is done and he has been washed and is going back out. I have kids. They feed him treats, stray hay, hand fulls of grass. He is not mean about treats and doesn’t take them aggressively. He just doesn’t retain knowledge when treats are involved. He doesn’t learn the desired behavior. I use the clicker and treats with my other two flawlessly. I am not saying it doesn’t work. I am saying it isn’t an option with this horse. I sort of thought after a while of getting treats they would lose their novelty and we could move forward. That hasn’t happened yet. Maybe it will. Who knows?

He isn’t going to learn to stand still and be mounted if I use treats. He will be distracted so I can mount. That is different. I completely understand what you are saying. I never said he.was mugging anyone for treats. I said he would be searching for a treat. I mean he would be watching me waiting for some sign he was going to get a treat every time I wanted to use the mounting block. I might as well just put him up against the fence and mount because he isn’t going to learn anything when food is involved. I know my horse and of the many many things I have taught him he has never once LEARNED a behavior with the use of treats.

[aktill]

Good stuff. Just to be clear, I’m not recommending treat training for mounting…quite the opposite.

I’d still go back to the method I linked in the article earlier on, which has worked for me with quite a few horses.

Josh was telling me about a clinic he taught where he showed a lady this game early on, and she totally fell in love with it and didn’t want to do anything else (she’d struggled at the mounting block quite a bit). By the end of the three or four day clinic she would start in the middle of the arena with her horse loose, and she couldn’t run fast enough to the mounting block to beat him to the block, where he had lined up nicely waiting to be mounted.

I wish negative reinforcement weren’t called that, because it implies that it’s “worse” than positive reinforcement. I’ve seen plenty of clicker animals that were really stressed by withholding the reinforcer, or by a random reinforcement schedule.

[Flash44]

I majored in psych so I am well acquainted with behavior modification methods. I prefer methods that are logical, safe, humane and long lasting. Treats and clickers are too gimmicky for me - as others have said, what if you don’t have a treat or a clicker and need to do something with your horse? Oh well, guess he doesn’t learn anything that day. The techniques I use are with me at all times and in place every minute of interacting with my horses.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Flash44;8136235]
I majored in psych so I am well acquainted with behavior modification methods. I prefer methods that are logical, safe, humane and long lasting. Treats and clickers are too gimmicky for me - as others have said, what if you don’t have a treat or a clicker and need to do something with your horse? Oh well, guess he doesn’t learn anything that day. The techniques I use are with me at all times and in place every minute of interacting with my horses.[/QUOTE]

That doesn’t make much sense with what operant conditioning is, not at all.

First, it is not dependent on treats, treats are nice to have, but other can work also.
Second, many if not most have trained dogs on and off as it was prudent with those kinds of concepts for a good 30 years now and you would be amazed how well they work, when properly applied.
Many also have trained some horses for some tasks with them.

I still don’t think you really know about this type of learning theory or have used on many different animals and have the concepts in mind, for what you keep bringing up?

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Flash44;8136235]
I majored in psych so I am well acquainted with behavior modification methods. I prefer methods that are logical, safe, humane and long lasting. Treats and clickers are too gimmicky for me - as others have said, what if you don’t have a treat or a clicker and need to do something with your horse? Oh well, guess he doesn’t learn anything that day. The techniques I use are with me at all times and in place every minute of interacting with my horses.[/QUOTE]

there is absolutely nothing illogical or inhumane about the judicious application of operant conditioning that a ‘pysch major’ would even say that is just bizarre.

a clicker is not a gimmick, any more than a ‘halter’ is a gimmick. do you think halters are gimmicks because you can’t always catch the horse? these are tools we employ to get horses to be obedient - they are NOT a cover-all to suppress either the horse’s will or to cover up training mistakes. that you would call a tool of operant conditioning a gimmick tells me you either are not familiar with clicker training or operant training or you have a very strange view of how animals learn and behave.

honestly. i don’t know anyone who relies on just clicker training. it is a tool in the scheme of training, and every tool has its usage. you don’t use a hammer to screw in a screw, and you don’t use a wrench to nail in nails.

this is operant conditioning in a classroom setting:
http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/archives/geo.txt

for what it’s worth, my clicker only comes out maybe 2x a year. and it’s reserved for the really puzzling things i teach my horse. and i am not a NH type or a joining up type, but the rapport you can build off of ‘speaking’ a language the horse or dogs understands is just phenomenal. once you build that rapport you can ask a horse to do anything WITHOUT a treat or a click - you don’t rely on the click to get the horse to do something, you employ the treat or the click to get the horse to UNDERSTAND what you’re asking.

[SuzieQNutter]

Instead of using a treat. I use praise. Praise is to say Good Boy or Good Girl. If they don’t do what I want they get Uh Uh and it can be a simple Uh Uh or a serious Uh Uh that stopped my husband in his tracks the first time I used it on him. Apparently he was reaching for the salt and I did the uh uh. He absolutely froze. As he stopped reaching for the salt I returned to eating my tea. He relaxed when he realised I was not angry with him. The other day I smiled when I heard him say uh uh in the same tone to his horse.

So he moves from the mounting block. Uh uh and put him back in the original spot and Good Boy… you can add a neck stroke. Never a pat.

Every single time. Whether you are grooming, tacking or mounting.

I was lunging my boy over a cavelletti one day and on one circle he ducked inside the cavelletti instead of going over it. I said Uh Uh and Wow. You would have thought I had thrashed him with a whip from his reaction. He went over it the next time. Got his Good Boy and was happy.