At what point did I comment on operant conditioning??? I’m not the one posting on this bb asking for help. I show, compete in judged trail rides and have my horse ready to pass the police assessment to be a volunteer ranger. You can’t exactly whip out a clicker or a treat in the show ring so I use methods that work everywhere. And you all are going on and on about the mounting block - it’s not the mounting block, it’s that the horse does not know how to stand still. It’s missing a piece of foundation training.
What is a reasonable amount of time to work on this with him? I mean standing in the arena for 6 hours repeating and repeating can’t be good for him. I called it at 90 min mark today and just grabbed mane and hopped on through the step forward. Am I better off not mounting at all, like am I just reinforcing that this is an acceptable behavior if I go ahead and mount him? Am I sending him the signal that he has “won” if I don’t mount him? I am totally aware that this is a problem my injury (at the time I started him) created, and trust me, I am super mad at myself for not thinking it through then. It just never dawned on me that being held for me to mount would be a problem down the road. I took it for granted.
This is how it went today. Placed by mounting block. Say stand in firm voice. Good boy, rub his head and neck. Stand there a few min. Gather reins in left hand. Say stand in firm voice. Continue speaking nicely as I step on first step. See the side step beginning, say no, stand in firm voice. Side steps anyway. Little circle back to block and start over.
Finally I could stand on the first step and rub him and talk to him. Step up and he side steps. Started over a few times and was able to stand on top step. Still side stepped when I would step for stirrup. I remained calm and firm and did not allow myself to get frustrated.
I tried sitting on the side of the round pen like a previous poster suggested. He would stand quietly still for me to mount every time. It literally took no effort to convince him to stand there. It did not however, translate to the mounting block at all. My long legs dangled to about the same height as they are on the mounting block so if it didn’t bother him from the fence why is it bothering him from the block. So frustrating.
Does this seem appropriate? What would you change? How long should I work at a time?
*I am done talking about treats. It won’t be happening for this horse at this time. I am sorry if you disagree, but please do not feel like I do not appreciate your time and advice, I do.
The concept of the horse “winning” is only applicable to people whose egos outmatch their training ability, so I wouldn’t worry about that. You just need to observe how much you have to do so that the next day isn’t worse, and ideally so that it’s better. Your horse will likely have more patience than you will, however so feel free to stick with it and quit before you get bored or frustrated (again, likely before the horse will). The only way you’ll find out what “too much” is is by doing too much once in a while, so no biggie if that happens.
Do you have the ability to ask him to bring his hip back to the mounting block, rather than just resetting him up to the block if he steps away? If not, I’d really work on training this (tap on the hind etc).
I’d really suggest installing a correction to the hip step, rather than walking him up to the block over and over. A correction rather than a reset is going to make things clearer, since otherwise he might think he’s supposed to step away as you go to get on since you keep repeating the same pattern over and over.
That is a good point. I can try that. He is so big though I might have to get creative.
Yes 90 minutes is too long.
The first time you ask them to stand still will be the worst, but you only do it for the time to tack up.
Each day will get better and by about day 4 they should stand and not move while you groom and tack up.
After this, standing at the mounting block you do the same thing. Walk to the mounting block and say halt. They move you put them back and if you have to do it more than once or maybe twice then your timing for training is incorrect. If your timing for training is incorrect, you will teach the horses the opposite of what you want and you will teach them to move away from the mounting block and they will run away with your saddle on when you turn to get the bridle while tacking up. JMHO.
As long as your timing is perfect, the horse is amenable, the environment is controlled, and neither horse nor handler has had any contrary experiences, right?
For everyone that tells me an absolute (ie, 90 mins is too long), sooner or later I find a horse that hasn’t read that rule.
OP, have you gone through the whole groundwork process where the horse will lead (give to head pressure EVERY time), stop and stand, move the shoulders and move the hips (EVERY time with very little pressure)? I’d go back and do basic ground work, and really make sure the horse stands when you want him to stand. You should be able to walk all the way around him without him moving. You should be able to sack him out with a plastic bag and a whip and he stands still. Once he’s proficient at all this, then proceed to the mounting block. I think if you do the ground work right, the walking off problem will simply disappear.
I really don’t like to get on horses if I am anticipating a problem, and find that going back to basic ground work and desensitizing them really helps get rid of issues under saddle. I’m not a bronc rider or good with a big spooker, so I like to get that stuff out of them before I get on. Just makes my life easier.
Yes. Horse had impeccable ground manners. I am quite a stickler for good manners. He is very accommodating and even when he is doing this it isn’t mean spirited. It seems like a reflex or something. I have even gone as far as to have the vet check his vision in case that was the issue. He will stand still as long as I ask once I am on him. I am thinking the problem existed before he belonged to me and because I needed someone to help me mount and dismount in the beginning I didn’t notice it. We have never had a bad experience at the mount or anything like that. Just this annoying side step or forward step. I worked with him for 90 min because neither of us seemed to be frustrated. Like I said, he isn’t being mean, it is like he can’t figure out what I am asking him to do. He stands perfectly still for handling, grooming and all that. I can use the mounting block to braid his mane but once it is at his side it seems like he has to step so he can see what I am standing on. It isn’t the mounting block, he will stand beside it forever until I step on that top stair. I don’t get it.
[QUOTE=kaitsmom;8138639]
Yes. Horse had impeccable ground manners. I am quite a stickler for good manners. He is very accommodating and even when he is doing this it isn’t mean spirited. It seems like a reflex or something. I have even gone as far as to have the vet check his vision in case that was the issue. He will stand still as long as I ask once I am on him. I am thinking the problem existed before he belonged to me and because I needed someone to help me mount and dismount in the beginning I didn’t notice it. We have never had a bad experience at the mount or anything like that. Just this annoying side step or forward step. I worked with him for 90 min because neither of us seemed to be frustrated. Like I said, he isn’t being mean, it is like he can’t figure out what I am asking him to do. He stands perfectly still for handling, grooming and all that. I can use the mounting block to braid his mane but once it is at his side it seems like he has to step so he can see what I am standing on. It isn’t the mounting block, he will stand beside it forever until I step on that top stair. I don’t get it.[/QUOTE]
i do. he has your number! shouldn’t take 90 minutes to figure that out :lol:
He is not the only horse to do this. Believe it or not they have all read the same book.
When you put it in mounting position and stand on the top step he knows thd next step is for you to mount.
OK so he has been conditioned (lol) that if he steps away you don’t get on.
Some people look for any opportunity to blame the horse (ie “he’s got your number”), other people take a look at their own explanations and see where they can be more clear (ie, take personal responsibility).
It’s a bit of a philosophical divide.
No different then some people who think horses are lazy by nature and look for any opportunity to “get out of work”, and others who see a horse not being willing to put out effort as a sign that they haven’t been given sufficient motivation to do so.
[QUOTE=aktill;8139036]
Some people look for any opportunity to blame the horse (ie “he’s got your number”), other people take a look at their own explanations and see where they can be more clear (ie, take personal responsibility).
It’s a bit of a philosophical divide.
No different then some people who think horses are lazy by nature and look for any opportunity to “get out of work”, and others who see a horse not being willing to put out effort as a sign that they haven’t been given sufficient motivation to do so.[/QUOTE]
well, I can’t help but feel that your response is in part directed towards mine… I am only going off of what information OP has given us - besides the small strain of black-stallion-syndrome/special-snowflake-syndrome evident in this thread, OP has told us that she spent 90 minutes working with the horse and is surprised that every time she steps up on the mounting block the horse moves away - as if it is a marvel idea that horses are cognizant of patterns… From what information she has given us the horse is perfectly compliant to stand still in any other situation… she just can’t evince the behavior she wants when she steps on the mounting block. Horses aren’t as intelligent as people, but they are excellent at identifying patterns. This horse KNOWS what is next and spending 90 minutes reinforcing that only made matters ‘worse’ for OP, who has now likely inadvertently taught the horse that if he moves away she doesn’t get on him…
Add in that “OP doesn’t get it” (her words, not mine) when she steps up to the top step on the mounting block and the horse moves away… well… there you have it…
Telling her that he’s “got her number” is saying that’s he’s intentionally taking advantage of her brief confusion on how to deal with this issue. That implies he somehow knows he should be doing something else, but is intentionally not doing it.
I agree with you in that he’s just recognizing a pattern and repeating it, but in my opinion he’s simply trying to do what he understands he should do based off what he thinks she’s saying.
None of us are born knowing everything, so people here saying that teaching him to stop doing this should be easy does nobody any good whatsoever, least alone the OP.
A lot of the responses here read as if the horse is stepping away to avoid having to be mounted, and to go to work. If he’s calmly stepping away, or not protesting if she temporarily gives up and just gets on any old way, I’d personally disagree with this implied motivation.
[QUOTE=aktill;8139076]
Telling her that he’s “got her number” is saying that’s he’s intentionally taking advantage of her brief confusion on how to deal with this issue. That implies he somehow knows he should be doing something else, but is intentionally not doing it.
I agree with you in that he’s just recognizing a pattern and repeating it, but in my opinion he’s simply trying to do what he understands he should do based off what he thinks she’s saying.
None of us are born knowing everything, so people here saying that teaching him to stop doing this should be easy does nobody any good whatsoever, least alone the OP.
A lot of the responses here read as if the horse is stepping away to avoid having to be mounted, and to go to work. If he’s calmly stepping away, or not protesting if she temporarily gives up and just gets on any old way, I’d personally disagree with this implied motivation.[/QUOTE]
I think you may be giving horses a little less credit than they deserve. I’m with you in that I think 90% of the time a horse isn’t disobeying you (general) just to be bad… Their motives aren’t usually geared that way - they are usually being ‘disobedient’ because they don’t understand what is being asked of them, or they are in pain or discomfort.
However, I will say that from the OP’s response it sounds like the horse is not a dumb horse at all, and that he IS taking advantage of her. Horses identify the mounting block with the purpose it serves, which is mounting. They do know what it means, as it is a pattern. I think this horse, from what OP has told us, has learned that the mounting can be avoided if he avoids standing still near it. It sounds like he does understand he is supposed to stand still from what OP has said. OP hasn’t clarified how she corrects the horse (or if she did, I missed it), but stepping down and re-situating him in this situation IMHO is a poor decision. I’d be preventing the behavior before it happens by bridging the reins and being verbal ‘AH-AH’, and following with a tap on the haunches with a whip to bring him back. I would not be stepping down.
Having met many wily and crafty ponies during my PC years I can most certainly tell you there are some horses who willingly take advantage of their soft-souled and bewildered riders. :lol:
That would be the philisophical divide I was speaking of, yes.
OP - if you just give up on the mounting block and get on any old way, does your horse object to going to work?
The more I read this, I think perhaps your horse is nervous with you being above him. So that’s where you start. Sitting on a fence or stump or lower mounting blocks or whatever. Just get him used to being above him. Remember he is a prey animal and danger comes from above.
The video that was posted first thing on this thread is addressing just this thing. Once he gets used to you being above him at a lower level raise the level. Sitting on top of a 6 foot fence and getting him where he will line up with you on both sides and standing quietly is the goal. Just getting on isn’t the first goal. Don’t get on. Brush him, massage him, rub him with the rope, whip or whatever.
Once he is comfortable and just hanging out, then you start to step into the stirrup and then off. Walk him around and do it again. Once you are completely on his back, dismount, do it again. This isn’t an instant fix. Take the time to get it and not always trying mount him before he moves.
Have you had the instructor have a lead on him and then help correct him when he moves? I don’t mean holding him firmly, I mean with slack and relaxed. This being unsure with you being above him doesn’t mean he’s frightened, just uncomfortable. That’s what you fix.
Anyway, just another perspective.
I have been using the mounting block to groom him and he is coming along with not moving when I step up. The weather has been terrible so grooming in the barn is all I can do for now. I am doing this “grooming” with all his tack on so when it translates back to me mounting it won’t be any different.
I don’t think he is a special snowflake or a black stallion or whatever condescending things you want to say. If you can’t see that I am genuinely trying to fix a hole in his training then move on to another thread. I have provided back ground in case it gave any insight as to the best way to approach this.
As far as he has got my number and I am further conditioning the behavior that is why I came here for advice. Like I said before due to an injury I had at the time I started him under saddle he had to be held for me to mount and dismount. No fault of his own, my leg injury made it a necessity. Like I said before as well, I am pretty mad at myself for not anticipating this would happen.
As far as nit getting on him when he steps and reinforcing the behavior…I said before he is over 17 hh and I am working alone. Not sure taking a flying leap into the saddle will help him get over thus behavior, nor is it safe for me or him. I have stated that I can put him by the mounting block, grab a handful of mane and reins with my left hand and rush up the mounting block and get on. This does not fix the issue though. I am willing to put the time and energy into working with him and I needed fresh ideas.
I do think my horse is special, because he is my horse and I love him. I was in no way implying that his history is any excuse for the behavior, I did however think that explaining why I thought the behavior was created might help figure out how to fix it.
Thank you to those with thoughtful advice. I appreciate it so much and I am determined to work through this.
If there is another person with us he doesn’t try to move. They don’t even have to be holding him. Just on the ground nearby. A fellow rider at the barn was watching from inside and said it seems like when I leave the ground he turns to see me, not to move away from me mounting. I am going to try to get him to look at me by turning only his head when I am beside him and then add the block and see if that helps. Thoughts?
[QUOTE=kaitsmom;8145887]
If there is another person with us he doesn’t try to move. They don’t even have to be holding him. Just on the ground nearby. A fellow rider at the barn was watching from inside and said it seems like when I leave the ground he turns to see me, not to move away from me mounting. I am going to try to get him to look at me by turning only his head when I am beside him and then add the block and see if that helps. Thoughts?[/QUOTE]
He is clearly not unintelligent. He is moving because so far, he thinks he can and nothing has been done to stop that. Case in point is when another person is ‘enforcing’ the rule to stand still, he stands still…
Now, your training methods may be different than everyone else’s and I think the bulk of people who have responded have enough information now to form their own opinions, but it still sounds like he has learned you are NOT going to enforce good behavior…
He doesn’t need to turn his entire body to see you. Trust me, he can see you just fine.
Here are some threads with other people who have similar problems:
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?356969-Horse-who-won-t-stand-still-for-mounting
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?327832-Getting-horse-to-stand-stil-for-mounting
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?294091-Ideas-for-a-horse-that-will-NOT-stand-for-the-mounting-block
