Unlimited access >

Tell me about the Koehler method of dog training

Last week I got a new rescue dog. Last year he had lived with a trainer for a couple of months, at the rescue organization’s expense, and the trainer includes two sessions with the adopter.

We’ve been emailing to set up times and she told me to get a book “The Koehler Method of Dog Training”. I read some of the Amazon reviews and googled it and am concerned that it may not be a method I want to use.

She also said to bring his chain collar and special lead to the sessions. I have the special lead but not a chain collar. I don’t really like chain collars, and so far he doesn’t seem to need anything that harsh. The special lead has a carabiner clip on the handle end and after reading the Amazon reviews of the book I’m afraid that may be used to hang him up by his neck?

Does anyone have a positive experience with this method? Is it as harsh as it sounds?

Any collar is as good or bad as the person on the other end of the leash.

If I understood correctly, the dog has been trained or started in training with that one person and it wants to show you how it was trained?
Go ahead and see what they did, then you do what you like, once it is your dog.

If you have not trained dogs before, see if you can find a performance, maybe obedience dog club nearby to go take some classes and see what they teach there.

Everyone taught with a choke chain collar decades ago and few were abusive.
They are better ways today, but the old ones are ok to start dogs also.

The first two dogs I did obedience with, the trainer was a policeman and trained police dogs that went to sheriff’s departments.
His dogs were in great demand.
He followed the Koehler book, but he was absolutely insistent on getting the dog right by how we handled the dog, not let it make mistakes and correct it with a jerk.
Any heavy handed act and the student was growled at seriously and dismissed if it didn’t learn some finesse at the other end of the leash.
That was before pinch collars and way before clicker training and such other operant conditioning theories came to be.

I will agree, give some ham handed idiot a leash and no matter what collar the dog is wearing, they can be very rough.:eek:

I don’t know anything about “The Koehler Method of Dog Training”, but we use a “choke chain” collar in obedience class. Rather than the steady constant contact I strive for with my horse in Dressage, the goal for the choke chain is slack lead with a noticeable but gentle correction when needed. I see more dog skjoring with flat collars and harnesses. :lol:

2 Likes

…Don’t let them? Seriously, if someone tries to hang up a dog by the neck you use whatever 4 letter words you need to get out of the situation and you call animal control immediately.

Chain collars are not inherently bad. I use one almost exclusively on my 15 lb dog because he is taught to walk in a loose-lead heel. A chain is a useful correction tool but should never be used to drag or jerk. Just like a double bridle on a horse. It is for finesse not brute force.

Honestly I would not use The Koehler Method of Dog Training. It involves mechanically moving the dog into various positions, associating a word cue, and then rewarding. However, if this is the method your dog was taught you probably need at least one lesson to figure out what he knows and their learning philosophy. You don’t have to embrace it but it might shed light on his future behavior and response to training.

2 Likes

I would strongly suggest you NOT take your dog to any trainer who uses the Koehler method of training. It is a very old-fashioned, not very effective, punishment-based method of training. It can get very brutal, very fast.
And, as I mentioned, it’s not very effective. Physically putting dogs into positions is a very ineffective method of training. And collar corrections are least effective method ever invented to train dogs. Particularly with a choker- it takes a lot of skill for someone to use a choker properly. And there is the little problem that choker use damages dogs necks- some studies have shown that even in the hands of professionals, dogs trained with a lot of choker-pops develop permanent neck pain and damage. If you must use a training collar, a prong collar is far safer and more effective.

And I speak from experience- I trained my first dog using Koehler.

Even the obedience trainers who feel you must use some force to get a reliable performance don’t use Koehler’s methods any more. For example, the very skilled obedience trainer at one center (OTCHs) starts puppies out with exclusively reward-based training and lots of luring with food at first, and then in the more advanced training moves to using a lot of food rewards combined with some mild prong-collar corrections. A typical heeling exercise I watched the handlers were treating like crazy and only gave a few pops here and there.

I now train using a clicker and no leash on at all during training sessions. It is far more effective than Koehler- for example, using Koehler methods, it often takes two years of constant drilling to get a dog with a focused reliable off-lead heel. Using a clicker and choose-to-heel, you can get a dog with an intense focused reliable off-lead heel in two weeks flat.

Read Spector’s classic “Clicker training for obedience”, and Karen Pyror’s “don’t shoot the dog” instead of Koehler. Oh, sure, read Koehler too- it’s good to find out how things used to be done.

this is a good website for info about “training in drive”, which is kind of the opposite of Koehler, where you “train in passivity”:

http://denisefenzi.com/2013/01/09/motivational-training-until/

3 Likes

I used the Koehler method and it works…and is very simple (and also, not abusive). Koehler was Disney’s main dog trainer.

I trained my boxer using Koehler, it didn’t take any two years, which is total BS. She was heeling as a young puppy and I rarely worked her on leash. I had some amazing training responses using that style of training (also used it in the Army). It’s not mean or cruel. The dog should listen to you because your his/her leader, not for bribes.

That a trainer used “mild prong collars”…WTF?! No such thing as a mile prong collar.

Oh well, as with horses…use your training style of choice, be consistant and hope for the best…when I saw the title of Koehler training, I knew there’d be the parelli type comments.

Oh, I would not let someone hang my dog up by the collar, just was concerned that may have been done to him in the past.

I think that if I need further training with him I’ll stick with the local trainer that we went to with my other dogs. But so far the new dog is learning the routine and figuring out how to fit in quite well.

2 Likes

well, just as an example of the many ways you could use to teach a dog the down:

Koehler, you have the dog in a sit, you pull his front feet forward and push down on his back. Once you’ve forced him to the ground, you praise. After he’s finally realized you want him to do the moving into the down himself, you start adding in collar corrections if he doesn’t comply immediately.

Practically everyone else, including most clicker-trainers, simply lure the dog into a down using food a few times. Then they stop luring and wait for the dog to offer the down, and then they reward in some way.

All of Koehler is taught like that- you do all the work, and physically position the dog. Since the dog didn’t move himself, it often takes awhile for the dog to make the mental breakthrough that you actually want HIM to move himself into position. A BIG side-effect of this kind of training is the dog becomes very passive- he waits for you to give him orders, and he’s afraid to try anything because if he’s wrong he gets popped. Unfortunately, a lot of people like passive shut-down dogs like this- they think they are “well-behaved” because they don’t do much unless ordered to. You’ll see these dogs “freeze up” in the obedience ring sometimes- they are unsure of what they are supposed to do, so they just quit moving in hopes they won’t earn a collar-pop or other punishment. Unlike clicker-trained dogs, who when unsure happily offer behaviors.
Example: bad toss of the dumbbell in the ring, and it actually bounces out of the ring. The Koehler dog will be confused and stop moving, waiting to be shown what to do; the clicker-trained dog will happily leap over the fence and get it, because he’s been taught to think and figure things out on his own.
Example: doing the “signals” exercise in the ring. My clicker-trained dog, young, is distracted and misses the signal to move from the down into the sit. We stare at each other, and she knows something is not right, and finally she decides to offer some behaviors- and sit is always a good one to offer, so we make it through the exercise. A Koehler-trained dog would just lie there forever, waiting to be told what to do, too afraid to move.

Aside from the fact that it is slow and rather ineffective compared to other modern methods of training, no one except some pet dog trainers use it anymore because the results just aren’t good enough for most sports. You need the sparkle and drive of a motivationally-trained dog to succeed in most sports today. And most people who need very reliable off-lead dogs, like hunters or SAR workers, usually start with motivational methods and move onto ecollars. BIG problem with any training method that relies on collar-pops as it’s main “motivation to obey” is it’s very difficult to transition to off-leash work- your motivator goes away when you take off the leash.

4 Likes

Koehler is slow and patient for the dog. It is mind-numbingly boring in that he insists you be absolutely, positively, no doubt about it certain that the dog understand every single step of every exercise before you are allowed to ever give a correction.

For instance, in teaching SIT, I believe he has you gently physically place the dog in a Sit for ONE WEEK, in 2 sessions per day, each session of about 10 reps (I’ll have to look it up to be exact), until the dog is melting from underneath your hands each time. It’s only after the dog has done this that you can say SIT without placing him.

The people who bash Koehler don’t have the patience to teach Koehler, but go right to his sections on “harsh” treatments and quote those, totally neglecting that his harshest treatments he specifically states are for dogs whose only alternative is either that or euthanasia.

I have to disagree with wendy on the “freeze-up” dogs - it would be those dogs who are incorrectly trained with Koehler methods who freeze up. Now maybe that’s most people, but when you consider that he trained a lot of movie dogs, “freezing up” doesn’t happen. I particularly disagree with the dumbbell bouncing out of the ring example: IME a Koehler dog would be precisely the dog who would retrieve that dumbbell by either crawling under or jumping over the ring fence. Why? Because they know that “not retrieving” is not an option. It’s the happy-happy-joy-joy dogs who freeze up because they’re faced with something unusual or out of the ordinary and cannot deal with it. Koehler emphasizes unusual situations and working with intense distractions at all levels.

I do agree with wendy saying, “You need the sparkle and drive of a motivationally-trained dog to succeed in most sports today.” At least, I agree with this in Schutzhund, for instance, but still see a lot of “flat” dogs in the AKC (and UKC, etc.) obedience rings.

[QUOTE=wendy;7132385]
for example, using Koehler methods, it often takes two years of constant drilling to get a dog with a focused reliable off-lead heel. [/QUOTE]

Wait, what? Where do you get this? That’s absolutely not true.

I will chime in, as I’ve used the Koehler method; while I will agree, it is old fashioned (I used it on my first dog in 1988), he was the most obedient dog I’ve ever had.
I know training has probably been modified throughout the decades, but it does work. I don’t recall there being any reason I wouldn’t use it. But then again, that was 1988.

I also don’t remember any of the things that Wendy has mentioned taking place.

I think he advocates the slip collar - photos in the book show traditional chain, as the book was published in 1962 - so that a bucking bronco of a dog can’t back out of a buckle collar. There’s a woman in my neighborhood who walks 2 little dogs, some kind of yappy monsters. Well, one of them is a yappy monster who when he decides he’s going to act up, throws on the brakes and then proceeds to rapidly back up, head down and bucking and sure enough, I’ve seen him wiggle out of his collar twice now and head off for a spree. Now there’s a dog who can use a slip collar.

Koehler says that buckle collars have to be tight in order to prevent a dog getting out of them and therefore are uncomfortable for the dog even “during his calm, obedient moments.”

some amazing training responses using that style of training (also used it in the Army). It’s not mean or cruel. The dog should listen to you because your his/her leader, not for bribes.

no, when using Koehler training the dog is working to avoid pain, which is cruel. In Koehler training you hit the dog with painful collar corrections if he doesn’t respond to what you say. If you think that is “leadership” I’m sorry for you. If your boss slapped you in the face you’d sue, not think she was a “leader”, a violent idiot perhaps.
In motivational training, the dog is working to get things the dog wants and enjoys- food, toys, praise, play, petting. The difference is like night and day. You wouldn’t go into work if you didn’t get paid, right?
Keohler training is yesterday. There’s not a dog on TV today that wasn’t clicker-trained.

1 Like

There are two things I dislike about the Koehler method.

  1. he uses modeling, then moves to cues. Modeling is where you mold the dog into position. For example, you push down on the hindquarters to get a sit. When pushing down, you often get an oppositional reflex type reaction where the dog will brace against the pressure.

  2. When the handler does the work, the dog isn’t thinking his way through the problem. It’s sort of like driving in a new place, but you are following someone else. You don’t learn the route yourself, you don’t have to figure out how to get there. When you model train, the dog isn’t required to think about what you want or how he got there.

Denise Fenzi, the woman in the link Wendy put up, is a top competitor in both Schutzhund and AKC. She is very successful. She also has vids up on youtube and she uses NO modeling.

To each his own, but I think I like the dogs Denise turns out.

2 Likes

I don’t have a problem with slip collars either, IF you need them. I have a dog who learned quickly to back out of a flat buckle if he wanted out. So he wears a slip.

An idiot can make a mess with a flat collar, a clicker and a bag of baked chicken. There are many talented trainers out there that have many training tools at their disposal.

There is nothing inherently wrong with a slip collar, or a prong, or a martingale or a flat collar. Look at the skill of the person using the equipment, not the equipment itself. I would never reject a trainer simply because of the methods they use, because I know that a really good trainer would never misuse something.

It could be that the trainer the OP is referring to actually knows what they are doing. They have worked with this dog and maybe they are using the Koehler method because this is what that particular dog needs at this point in the process.

Dogs respond best to fair, consistent training. Maybe the OP should see how fair and consistent this trainer is, with whatever method is used, before deciding to reject it out of hand.
Sheilah

First of all, I’d like to say that I think prong collars get a bad reputation because they look harsh. If you have a big, strong, rambunctious dog, a prong collar can be a necessity and personally I think dogs on prong collar are more up than dogs in head halters. However, if your dog is not pulling, then there is no reason to use one.
What would you like to train the dog to do? I’d suggest visiting a few dog training schools and seeing what seems like a good fit for you.

Old thread, Casey. Resurrected from Aug 2013 by a greenie advertising something.

Reported.