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tell me why.... US bred horses are harder to find and more $$ than others?

Sport Horse Breeding
#1

Just shopping a bit for the next prospect and noticing again, how few purpose bred, jumper/event horses are available in the US. I would love to stay on this side of the pond but there seem to be only a handful of 4-5 year olds, showing good jumping form, with a decent start under saddle. If I want a purpose bred horse, and not an OTTB, the US seems to have much fewer than the much smaller countries in Europe. There are one or two here and there, and all else being equal (training level, perceived talent, pedigree), the US prospects are more $$$, even after import fees.

Why is it more expensive to produce a young horse here as compared to Europe? It can’t be land or feed prices


I missed that paragraph


#2

IMO, it is the cost involved on starting them and keeping them until they are 4-5. There is no money in event horses until they show they want to event. So my purpose bred horse must be broken, compete, and usually have a record before they sell. I don’t break my babies anymore, so send them out . That costs 800-1000 month, not including farrier, etc here on the East Coast. Pretty quickly makes them expensive, just to cover costs, much less make any profit. Now, if you want to take the risk and buy a purpose bred 1-2 year old, and have the ability and patience to make one up, you can get a bargain and a seriously nice horse.
What we need is a system to transition from breeder to buyer, with young horse specialists who bridge the gap. Something we breeders have been talking about for years


#3

NA only has a fraction of the WB’s of those in Europe. So that is one reason. A quality horse will be worth more on either side of the pond. Not sure that I agree that they are so much cheaper over seas. More horses and better training but also people are much more sophisticated in their taste and knowledge.

#4

[QUOTE=elizabeth Callahan;8421269]
IMO, it is the cost involved on starting them and keeping them until they are 4-5. 


What we need is a system to transition from breeder to buyer, with young horse specialists who bridge the gap. Something we breeders have been talking about for years
[/QUOTE]

Elizabeth, I have already looked at your website as I am browsing quality breeders. You don’t have anything in my age range. :frowning:

So why is it that our expenses to bring up a horse to age 4-5 are greater than in Europe (and Canada)? Is it that we lack young horse specialists willing to train at an affordable rate? Are there just so many of them in Europe such that they do not charge as much as here? Is it that riding is more common in Europe and thus they produce a larger number of trainers/riders who are not wealthy and do not expect to be?

And stoicfish, my question is why DO we have a fraction of the WB’s compared to Europe? Our resources (land, hay etc) are less expensive. And there are plenty of buyers, at least there are plenty who end up buying oversees.

#5

OP, you say there’s “only a handful,” but that can’t literally be true. I’m sure there are hundreds of nice 4-5 year olds tucked here and there across the US. What I do believe is that that’s all you’ve found. You don’t say how you were looking, but I’m sure that’s one of the biggest problems we are having with selling American sport horses.

Just as an example, I know of a breeder in my own zip code who has placed warmbloods they bred with big name trainers
 but I don’t even have contact information for them; they are just people I met at a party. The internet doesn’t know they exist, and I don’t remember what flavor of horses they have. I could find them by asking my friend who held the party, most likely. But if I can’t find them, the odds you will are near zero. I think there’s a lot of people like that, some who raise nice horses, and it would really help everyone, including those of you who are great at marketing your stock, if some of the rest of them caught up.

#6

It is a complicated question with many, many factors. Some of my observations.

Costs are NOT lower for land or for hay/feed (at least in Ca or near larger cities).

Vet costs are significantly higher here than in Europe.

Frozen semen import/purchase costs are higher than in Europe.

What Elizabeth said above- it costs significantly more to train an show a young horse here. Young jumpers in Europe can go around age appropriate courses for 10-20 euro on most any day and not have to travel away from home. Here many of the experienced riders will be at week long shows most of the year and it will cost anywhere from 1k to 2k a week to send a young horse to get the same experience. Many of the breeders will sell quality stock in utero or before a year old in order to minimize risk and not have the expense of training/competing young horses.

***the “less money” is also oftentimes an illusion created by savvy marketing. A quality horse is a quality horse and is priced accordingly. You may be able to get a mediocre horse in Europe for less than a mediocre horse in the US, but it is highly unlikely you will get a top horse in Europe for less than a top horse here. Have you looked at the auction prices at the well respected auctions? At the Dutch Sporthorse Auction the prices for a good 4 yr old started at 36 euro (add vetting and import and you are looking at near 50 US) and topped at 380,000 euro.

Also, many people watching videos on the internet and looking at “cheap” prices are not really accounting for all the costs of import and are often looking at a video that has been highly edited to make a horse look much more experienced (and often much greater quality) than an equivalent horse in the US. The ones in Eastern Europe may only be 8,000 euro, but buyer beware in many of those cases.

Finally, I agree with above that the US marketing is not all that savvy. Many of the quality breeders already have connections or pipelines to sell young horses and don’t often advertise. I am guessing that in another few years, Facebook sales groups will be solidified as the main marketing tool of most North American breeders. Many of the Facebook groups are already very popular. Try searching those groups and spend the time “sorting” through wide array of horses and you may find what you are looking for.

#7

[QUOTE=elizabeth Callahan;8421269]
IMO, it is the cost involved on starting them and keeping them until they are 4-5. There is no money in event horses until they show they want to event. So my purpose bred horse must be broken, compete, and usually have a record before they sell. I don’t break my babies anymore, so send them out . That costs 800-1000 month, not including farrier, etc here on the East Coast. Pretty quickly makes them expensive, just to cover costs, much less make any profit. Now, if you want to take the risk and buy a purpose bred 1-2 year old, and have the ability and patience to make one up, you can get a bargain and a seriously nice horse.
What we need is a system to transition from breeder to buyer, with young horse specialists who bridge the gap. Something we breeders have been talking about for years
[/QUOTE]

This.
Right now I have a spectacular 2 yr old (rising 3) colt. He is purpose-bred, by VDL Windsor (Indoctro x Ahorn) out of a full TB A Fine Romance daughter who is a full sister to an Advanced event horse and winning GP jumper.
He is an athlete, with phenomenal movement.
I haven’t advertised him yet, but as soon as I get some video I will.
The price is very reasonable - but if he needs to be started, then it has to go up.

https://www.facebook.com/119405697399/photos/pb.119405697399.-2207520000.1448969440./10153672297047400/?type=3&theater

#8

We also live in a gigantic country, so you often have to travel to find what you want. The horse you want is definitely out there. There is no need to go to Europe.

#9

Fred, I will PM you about your colt although that is younger than my search range. I tend to purchase young horses, start them, get them out and about and then sell them after about 2 years. I am now at an age that I would prefer to not start them as the ground is getting so much harder.

All of the above sounds plausible although I really have SCOURED the various pages and come up with far fewer in the US than in Europe, even if I travel throughout the country. Seems we have more dressage-bred than jumper/event-bred although that ratio may be similar in Europe.

If I decide to go to Canada, any suggestions on farms/trainers/breeders? Irish Sporthorse, Conn/TB, any WB cross that has both strong movement and jump.

#10

[QUOTE=Winding Down;8421397]
Elizabeth, I have already looked at your website as I am browsing quality breeders. You don’t have anything in my age range. :frowning:

So why is it that our expenses to bring up a horse to age 4-5 are greater than in Europe (and Canada)? Is it that we lack young horse specialists willing to train at an affordable rate? Are there just so many of them in Europe such that they do not charge as much as here? Is it that riding is more common in Europe and thus they produce a larger number of trainers/riders who are not wealthy and do not expect to be?

And stoicfish, my question is why DO we have a fraction of the WB’s compared to Europe? Our resources (land, hay etc) are less expensive. And there are plenty of buyers, at least there are plenty who end up buying oversees.[/QUOTE]

Why are there so many Qh’s in NA? Because they were created here and there is a strong culture around them. Same as with the Wb’s in Europe.
So the bottom line is horses do not every really make money, if you factor everything in and care for them properly, they will probably lose you money and require a large investment. It is a passion.
Yes the European breeders have access to an amazing support system of riders and shows that are very cheap compared to here. And even with land prices, they seem to be able to raise them very reasonably. There breeding cost tend to be lower.
There are lots of good horses here, you just need to know where to look.

#11

Young horses are what we do. We breed them, raise them, start them and sell them. What we don’t have access to is shows within a “doable” distance. So we have developed a “show facility” on our farm and host schooling shows throughout the summer. The youngsters will be able to get some exposure to the hubbub and horse show excitement.

We usually have a nice group of youngsters but once under saddle they tend to sell quickly.

#12

[QUOTE=elizabeth Callahan;8421269]
IMO, it is the cost involved on starting them and keeping them until they are 4-5. There is no money in event horses until they show they want to event. So my purpose bred horse must be broken, compete, and usually have a record before they sell. I don’t break my babies anymore, so send them out . That costs 800-1000 month, not including farrier, etc here on the East Coast. Pretty quickly makes them expensive, just to cover costs, much less make any profit. Now, if you want to take the risk and buy a purpose bred 1-2 year old, and have the ability and patience to make one up, you can get a bargain and a seriously nice horse.
What we need is a system to transition from breeder to buyer, with young horse specialists who bridge the gap. Something we breeders have been talking about for years
[/QUOTE]

Agree with this completely. This is not a complaint, but an observation and a reason why I (and others I think) are preferring to sell as young as possible.

Costs to produce a quality, purpose bred foal are not cheap. Good mares and good stallion fees cost money. People want recognizable names in the pedigree, mares that have had show careers or established damlines. Breeding costs, mare care for 11 months, baby on the ground - If everything goes perfect there, consider yourself lucky too!
Getting that perfectly planned foal then properly grown up and handled to the 4-5 YO in work you are looking for is even more costly, unfortunately.
I feel like expectations grow bigger from buyers all the time, and they want sellers/ breeders to absorb those costs so they can have a nice horse. Vet, farrier, training, showing, pre sale xrays, a young horse that has the stable manners of a packer, discounts for shipping, vetting etc
 All of that has a cost to it, which small breeders like myself can not afford to absorb, if we want to keep doing this.
I am glad to hear people like you are looking here at home, and I do hope you find something here, to support our breeding economy.

#13

It seems to me that most buyers are hoping that the US horses they want to look at are going to come up in a Google search or the equivalent, and it seems to me that most breeders are not successful in maintaining an accurate online inventory of young horses for sale.

(I suspect most horses that people look at on these european trips also don’t come up online, but instead are networked via human agents.)

As for cheaper, it’s probably cheaper to grow young horses in Wyoming or Montana, but that’s as far away from the big money buyers as Amsterdam.

#14

It seems to me that most buyers are hoping that the US horses they want to look at are going to come up in a Google search or the equivalent, and it seems to me that most breeders are not successful in maintaining an accurate online inventory of young horses for sale.

(I suspect most horses that people look at on these european trips also don’t come up online, but instead are networked via human agents.)

As for cheaper, it’s probably cheaper to grow young horses in Wyoming or Montana, but that’s as far away from the big money buyers as Amsterdam.

#15

I agree with what has been posted (the cost to make up a young horse in this country can be insane without deep pockets or being able to do it yourself) and I especially agree that there are more than a handful of decently started, good jumping horses here in the USA. Many of the horses in the age group you are looking at are not listed on online sales sites. They are with professionals who are marketing them at shows and to their contacts. Or they are not for sale at all.
Have you looked at horse shows and spoken with professional jumper/event riders?
I have a very nice young jumper that I bred and I will most likely not list him for sale online when/if I am ready to sell. He is a legitimate GP prospect - per his rider who is an Olympic qualified rider and my own eyes. :smiley: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

#16

I agree with previous posters- the cost of hay and land can be prohibitively expensive, the marketing is not up to par, horses are spread so far across the country that it is difficult to find them
 And if horses show at all on the “A-circuit” in the US it completely blows any chance of keeping prices low. Sadly this is a double edged sword- no one wants to purchase a horse that is unproven in the show ring but people don’t want to pay for those miles
 In the EU you can go jump around a horse show on the weekend for €200, here it is not less then $1000/wk if you go to a show, not to mention lodging, travel, etc.

I have a really lovely coming 4 y/o Landkoening son from a well bred TB mare that in my opinion is reasonably priced, especially for a horse that has been in training through the summer and is totally broke, fun to ride, and starting to jump courses. Almost everyone who inquired about his feel he is too young, yet next year when he has that much more money out in to him he will cost more
 So, there you go. The same is true in the EU and as ElRanchoAdobe said the very savvy marketing in the EU can sell you false hope before you consider all the costs of importation for what can still be an unknown entity.

#17

In my opinion, you asking for too old of a horse. By the time the horses are 4 or 5 they will already be picked up and not for sale or not good enough. The alternative is to import them from Europe. The cost of training them and competing them in this country it too high. I breed horses here and in Europe. My good ones here sell by 2 and my sport horses in Europe are of interest between 4 and 6. You are asking for something that will rarely lead you to a quality horse for the right price.

Tim

#18

Most breeders – myself included – are selling horses younger than your age range. Or, they have the horse in a professional’s hands by that point. Many horses are scooped up as foals.

Since you’re looking for jumping/ event horses, check the various FB pages and groups for those prospects. Check with the people who did well in FEH classes or championships.

#19

I know of a few breeders holding onto them until they are older and going well under saddle. They are doing this after talking to a number of pros that have come to their farms stating that they want a 5 or 6 yr old that can step into the ring and are willing to shop domestically for such a horse. So they are out there and they are not necessarily being marketed via the internet but word of mouth. Not a common thing but it is happening.

#20

Prices are lower here because the market is all making less money than in America. Salaries are way lower, plus riding isn’t quite as elitist as in the States so there is a bigger market, so therefore a higher demand, albeit lower prices. There are fewer bells and whistles as well, which really saves on costs, not to mention on inflation with farriers, vets, shavings, etc.

I’m not talking about the big German show barns though (I think 90% of the time of this board when I see ‘Europe’ the poster should replace it with ‘Germany/Belgium/and sometimes the Netherlands’ :winkgrin: ).

When you price people out of a sport entirely, don’t be surprised that there are fewer and more expensive horses to chose from.

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