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tell me why.... US bred horses are harder to find and more $$ than others?

Sport Horse Breeding
#21

FEI horse sports in Europe are state sponsored. The horses, shows, and riders have a fan base.

We have NASCAR.

Also, they have a very strict breeding standard in Europe. Here, everyone thinks their horse is good enough.

That said, there are some great breeders here producing too quality, but as others have said, it is just so much more expensive to get the 5 yo. you’re talking about.

Not to mention the size of the country, the fewer numbers our breeders tend to produce, etc.

You can go to a district in Germany and see 20 horses that meet your criteria in a few days.

Here, you’d have to travel further and it’ll take longer.

#22

I would agree with most of what has been said above about the more reasonable cost of showing, higher standards etc in Europe. The other thing I have noticed is that it seems like there are more dealers in Europe who specifically target the NA market with professionally done pics and video, x-rays completed, and an easy to navigate website. These videos make the horses look like superstars where as the reality is that they are not or else the dealer would have the horse priced higher.

I believe that quality horses can be found in NA. I don’t know if I would agree that they are cheaper in Canada than the USA (although with the way our dollar is right now you might find some bargains… When I was shopping for my next jumper prospect 3 years ago I had to adjust the age limit of horses I was looking at and expand my search area to include most of the USA and Canada to find the right horse at the right price. Rather than a 3 year old I wound up with a yearling and learned about patience waiting for him to grow up but wouldn’t do a thing differently if I were to do it again.

#23

I think one reason our horses are fewer in number, and cost more is the care put into breeding them in the first place. I don’t know for sure, but I don’t think many breeders here plan on “pet quality” foals.

I have the unqualified pleasure of living with a Virginia bred Dutch horse. I bought him as a 2yo, and paid quarters on the dollar because he just wasn’t good/fancy enough to bring any more than that. He has turned out to be the perfect local horse show, backyard owner’s hunter. Had he been more correct, I could never have paid the 12,000 the breeder in reality needed.

#24

I think many of the points other posters have stated are 100% on target. I lived in Germany several years, and WBs were like the QHs in America–everywhere. and a lot weren’t much nicer than your typical Craigslist horse, but they were WBs.

For Jumpers: There were a lot of very nice horses, and a 8-9yo horse that showed but didn’t have the talent to take it to the top could be found very affordably, but the 4-6yos with good bloodlines and talent were priced in line with what I’d expect in the US.
For eventers, which I had no interaction with in Germany, I think your issue is that most US breeders aren’t purpose-breeding for eventing unless it’s a personal horse. Seems like most eventers are DIY types and bring OTTBs up the ranks from cheap to going. My hunter mare was bred as a event horse. The breeder had her do a few schooling events and realized she (the breeder, not the mare) was too old to ever ride at that level, so offered the mare for sale. She wanted 20K, which for the talent, looks, and bloodlines on this 5yo was probably right on target if she’d been marketed for H/J on the coasts. But everyone on the mid-country event scene was buying 2K OTTBs and there was NO interest in the mare, who was lovely but limited show record. Breeder brought her home where maresie sat in a field for a few years until I got her, for a fraction of her original price–she ended up being a FABULOUS AO horse for me, but there just weren’t enough deep-pockets in eventing world to consider her. Seems like prospects there are cheap OTTBs, and going Training packers through proven UL horses, regardless of breed, is where the real money is in that discipline.

One thing that is harped upon in other forums is Bloodlines. There are thousands of stories of well-bred horses coming from Europe, and a few months later are being offered for sale without papers. Or if you ask the trainers who their talented horses are by, they couldn’t tell you. Until US buyers are familiar with bloodlines and no how to shop for them in a young horse, and breeders can identify/track/perpetuate the great domestic lines, we’ll always be at a disadvantage to the Europeans who do this as a matter of course. I articulated that poorly – but if I’m looking at a German bred horse, I can go find the show records, pictures, and performance stats for his parents, his half sisters/brothers/cousins. If I look up parentage on top US show horses, many are listed as unknown, often not even labeling the breed. It makes it hard for me to then search for domestic stallions with offspring with proven performance.

#25
  1. Volume
  2. Cost of showing
  3. Longevity of breeding program
  4. Established industry (brings down costs of vet, show, training, footing, stables. Makes horses as a career rather than a hobby more realistic…)
  5. Geography (affects all of the above)

Top top prospects are the same cost everywhere as there are so few horses in that bracket. It makes sense there would be more top prospects in Europe simply due to volume.

#26

I just have to say, I love this thread. I love looking at the young stock some of you guys have. There are some NICE horses. If I were looking, I’d be calling some people.

#27

Wow, I just skimmed through all the posts and will read in more detail later. I have my questions answered… but please keep posting!

#28

I am Dutch and in my country there are horses, livery stables, trainers, farriers, vets, competitions, etc. etc. everywhere. Horses are not terribly exclusive or elitist.

#29

Some Dutch facts.
Holland Horsecountry (Nederland paardenland):
http://www.sectorraadpaarden.nl/uploads/brochure-nederland-paardenland-definitief.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Netherlands

7.300 evenementen per jaar organiseren. Dat levert 765.000 wedstrijdstarts
7300 events organized per year. This produces 765 000 competition starts

Er vinden in Nederland jaarlijks vijf grote, internationale concoursen plaats: in Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Den Bosch, Valkenswaard en Boekelo. Tezamen trekken deze evenementen 270.000 bezoekers, waarbij Boekelo met 60.000 bezoekers op de cross-country dag één van de grootste outdoor sportevenementen van Europa is.
There are in the Netherlands annually five major international competitions place: Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Den Bosch, Valkenswaard and Boekelo. Together, these events attract 270 000 visitors, which Boekelo with 60,000 visitors on the cross-country day is one of the largest outdoor sporting events in Europe.

• 1.2 miljoen paardensport geïnteresseerden • 500.000 actieve paardensporters • 7.300 paardenevenementen per jaar • 765.000 wedstrijdstarts • 64% van alle ruiters zijn jonger dan 30 jaar • 450.000 paarden • 6.600 paardenbedrijven, waarvan 1.000 maneges • 1,5 miljard omzet in totale Nederlandse paardenbranche • 18 medailles tijdens het WK 2014. Alle kwalificaties voor Rio 2016 gehaald. Paardensport is de derde sport op de Nederlandse Olympische medaillespiegel aller tijden. Het KWPN-paard is het best presterende sportpaard ter wereld (officiële wereldwijde WBFSH-ranking). Nederland is het grootste paarden (kennis) exportland ter wereld.
• 1,2 million equestrian interested • 500,000 active equestrian athletes • 7300 horse events per year • 765 000 competition starts • 64% of all riders younger than 30 years • 450 000 horses • 6600 horse companies, 1000 maneges • 1.5 billion in revenues in total Dutch horse sector • 18 medals during the World Cup 2014 met all qualifications for Rio 2016. Equestrian sport is the third in the Dutch Olympic medal tally of all time. The KWPN horse is

I do not think any racing is involved in the above. In any case Holland hardly has any TB racing, but (sulky) trotting races are more substantial.

#30

Earlier in the year I looked at buying and importing a few youngsters from Poland as well as different parts of Europe

One amazing 3 year old was going through the jump chute and knocked my socks off with his scope, power and jumping ability and I believe was priced around EUR 4500. Terrific mover, terrific bloodlines - a lot to really like about him in so many ways. I enquired on him and asked to see lungeing video, a video of him being handled, groomed, tacked up, etc

Well - he just arrived from the breeder about a week before. He had been raised in a herd environment and had never been handled. They “shooed” him into the truck to get him there, they “shooed” him into and out of the indoor arena to get the video footage done, they had managed to get a halter on him already and were working on starting to lead him. Forget about lungeing, grooming, handling, trimming of feet, etc and forget about shipping him anywhere - he’d kill himself and probably some handlers along the way, so if I was interested in moving forward with him, I would need to leave him there for another 60-90 days to get him halter broke, handled, etc so it would be safe to stuff him into a stall on an airline container and on and off trucks and into and out of stalls, etc to get him here. My “cheap” EUR 4500 was going to be FAR more once all was said and done …

Another one in Poland I coveted - badly! He was SO nice! And had a purchase price of EUR 7500 and was already going under saddle. A friend of mine here in Canada is from Poland and goes there a few times a year on buying trips and gave me the name and info on her vet, the quarantine facility she uses, etc. It would have been super easy to buy him and get him here. Once all was said and done, minus the vet costs for a PPE, he would have landed here at about CAD $25,000 and I really questioned the logic and the sanity of paying that much for a green broke, very nice 3 year old on the other side of the pond when the same could be found here for about the same price give or take a few dollars

The prices do seem low and its only once you really look into things and add everything up that you realize the prices to get them to your door are pretty well the exact same thing. I would only consider doing it now if the bloodlines or some other factor was only available overseas rather than in North America and it made sense to do so for that reason alone

And yes - with me not riding at all now, to send them out costs me $900.00 - $1000.00 + per month, so you start adding that in to the acquisition cost and the asking (selling) price and the profit margins get leaner and leaner each month. Its a tough business to be in for sure …

#31

In around 1992 I purchased a Quarter horse from a Dutch horse dealer / trader. The horse had just been imported from the USA as was the case with many Quarter horses around that time. I paid 9,000 Dutch Guilders (in today’s currency 4,090 Euros). Has everything become so much more expensive?!

#32

^^^ Oh gosh yes! With the cost of fuel, wages, etc going up since 1992! A HUGE increase!

About 12-13 years ago I brought a mare in from New Zealand. From beginning to end, from her owner to landed at my door, it was about USD $11,000 with everything included - veterinary, paperwork, flight, quarantines, the van ride from Los Angeles to our farm, etc

2 years ago I looked at sending my stallion to the Southern Hemisphere for breeding and there were 2 options open to me. EACH WAY, it was USD $26,000 and USD $32,000 !!! So round trip would have been $52,000 - $64,000 plus his cost of staying there for XX months, etc It was literally triple what I had paid to bring the mare here 10 years previous

Yes - prices have gone up dramatically! :slight_smile:

#33

Good Heavens!!

#34

[QUOTE=JazCreekInc.;8421858]
I agree with previous posters- the cost of hay and land can be prohibitively expensive, the marketing is not up to par, horses are spread so far across the country that it is difficult to find them… And if horses show at all on the “A-circuit” in the US it completely blows any chance of keeping prices low. Sadly this is a double edged sword- no one wants to purchase a horse that is unproven in the show ring but people don’t want to pay for those miles… In the EU you can go jump around a horse show on the weekend for €200, here it is not less then $1000/wk if you go to a show, not to mention lodging, travel, etc.

I have a really lovely coming 4 y/o Landkoening son from a well bred TB mare that in my opinion is reasonably priced, especially for a horse that has been in training through the summer and is totally broke, fun to ride, and starting to jump courses. Almost everyone who inquired about his feel he is too young, yet next year when he has that much more money out in to him he will cost more… So, there you go. The same is true in the EU and as ElRanchoAdobe said the very savvy marketing in the EU can sell you false hope before you consider all the costs of importation for what can still be an unknown entity.[/QUOTE]

EU try 20, not 200. You can go to training shows every day of the week, different ones, for ten bucks a round. You can show national shows every weekend, maybe 20-40 a round, he’ll you can do multiple national shows in a weekend. Or you could do an international/FEI show many weeks without travelling too far between holland/belgium/germany/France. It is way cheaper to get show exposure here.

Also it can’t be underscored enough, as someone pointed out the number of qhs in the us, Europeans simply breed way, way more wbs than north America. Yes the top will still command top dollar, but there’s so many more that supply and demand is very much in effect tempering prices.

#35

[QUOTE=TrueColours;8422975]
^^^ Oh gosh yes! With the cost of fuel, wages, etc going up since 1992! A HUGE increase!

About 12-13 years ago I brought a mare in from New Zealand. From beginning to end, from her owner to landed at my door, it was about USD $11,000 with everything included - veterinary, paperwork, flight, quarantines, the van ride from Los Angeles to our farm, etc

2 years ago I looked at sending my stallion to the Southern Hemisphere for breeding and there were 2 options open to me. EACH WAY, it was USD $26,000 and USD $32,000 !!! So round trip would have been $52,000 - $64,000 plus his cost of staying there for XX months, etc It was literally triple what I had paid to bring the mare here 10 years previous

Yes - prices have gone up dramatically! :)[/QUOTE]

This is because there are no/very few direct flights from NZ to the US anymore. I researched it a few years ago. The only direct flights were when standardbred breeding was up in the beginning of the year.

#36

OP, I just wanted to applaud you for shopping American (or NA). Keep looking. There are many nice horses being bred in the US. (I agree with most of the points as to “why” it is more common in EU, so I won’t touch it).

#37

This is SO true - a lot of those “cheap” Euro horses are cheap for a reason. It is a buyer beware market - unless you are a big name or represented by a strong agent, you can end up with a total disaster. The videos look great, you go look at the horses, they are not quite so great, but you have gone all the way to Europe, so you feel pressured to buy.

Or - they look great, and you get them home and find out they have some major issues. I know so many people that have imported - with vet checks! But remember, vets in Europe aren’t really about taking care of a US buyer. And they ended up with horses with major issues - behavioral and/or physical. One friend almost bought a horse - down payment made, and luckily had a US vet do a secondary review of the vet check - and he refused to believe the Euro vets excuses about emails cutting off images, etc. After weeks of going back and forth with the Euro vet - turned out the horse had almost severed a suspensory many years back - it was healed enough for the horse to be working NOW, but would that continue into the future? Several people I know have imported horses that ended up with neuro issues, and a few have severe behavioral issues - it is easy to hide that with a bit of drugging when showing the horse. I think you take a much greater risk importing a horse then you do buying in the US.

[QUOTE=ladyj79;8423048]
Also it can’t be underscored enough, as someone pointed out the number of qhs in the us, Europeans simply breed way, way more wbs than north America. Yes the top will still command top dollar, but there’s so many more that supply and demand is very much in effect tempering prices.[/QUOTE]

Agree with this, and like QHs, there is a lot of garbage there. Just because it is “Warmblood” doesn’t make it talented! I was amazed when I went to Europe how every horse is a Warmblood (or in Netherlands, WB or Friesian), but many of them were not horses you would want to ride or own.

I totally agree with TrueColors - by the time you actually pay additional costs (including transport), you are probably not saving money. Unless you are shopping for an FEI horse (because training/showing IS so much cheaper there), you will probably spend just as much as you would spend here.

The biggest benefit to shopping in Europe is that it is so compact - so you can see a lot of horses relatively quickly. The US is huge - horses are spread out, and there are so many small private breeders, it is just hard to find information on what is available.

#38

Many people have a cheap warmblood just for recreational riding.
It is like with the Thoroughbreds and Quarter horses, most are bred for performance but many are not of the highest echelon.

#39

But I will also say there are many wbs in Europe who are super talented but that would never hit the us market because they aren’t pretty. We focus a lot on aesthetics in the us wb breeding market in ways that are often detrimental to producing top sport horses

#40

Especially the AES studbook is interested in performance and less in other traits.

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