Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

[walknsound]

[QUOTE=The Preacher;6572373]
Yes, I am hoping and believing the word is out, this culture has been exposed, other grooms, stable hands, shoers, vets, know now that they can be implicated in the actions of someone else. They now understand that they can be held responsible for accessory before or after the facts.

Even Jeff knew when he made that statement of not going to jail for no Jackie that Jackie was doing wrong, and he was a part of it, he just did not know where that line was that kept him outta jail.

Well everyone knows now and understand that they could be next.[/QUOTE]
True. I hear through the grapevine the AQHA (fearing they’ll be next) are being proactive, scrambling through their rule books to clean up their acts. The peanut roller is gonna be a thing of the past. Praise God!

[Fairfax]

Its no longer grapevine…they have it laid out…it will probably not cure the peanut pushers.

What is going to make a change iw when ALL BREED horse shows come back into style.

When the heads were too low…professionals in other breeds would laugh at the QH trainers…Arabs were too high…same thing…Saddlebreds not properly trained…etc

The problem is…we no longer have many true horsemen/women

[walknsound]

So what constitutes a true horseman/horsewoman to you Fairfax? Elaborate please.

[cordial]

[QUOTE=walknsound;6571705]
Really?[/QUOTE]
Yes, Really. I am not saying I am for or against it, but it won’t happen.

[outofthebox]

[QUOTE=Malda;6571780]
Dressage horses are not wearing shoes that would be unlawful for a TWH, or any other horse.[/QUOTE]

Ditto! There may be a few ounces of difference between an aluminum shoe and a steel keg shoe, but that is it. That is a really silly argument, the unlawful shoes are the stacks, stilts, “padded up” or whatever they want to call it. Maybe putting in a rule about how many millimeters of pad would clear up “confusion”. (I think they know very well that stacks are the problem, but want to muddy the waters by claiming weighted shoes are used in other disciplines) NO OTHER discipline uses multiple stacks of pads, EVER!

[Renae]

outofthebox, the problem is there are other Walking Horse divisions where soring occurs too, and they are shod without pads, as well as Spotted Saddle Horses which also shod without pads. And I have personally seen dressage horses wearing shoes as heavy as what some lite shod Walking Horses wear. So where do you draw the line in the sand? In my experience the dimension of shoe allowed on a lite shod Walker is not enough to cause lameness or soreness in them of themselves, but it is enough weight to alter gait. Is altering gait a bad thing? In my opinion, no. If you think shoes that alter gait should not be used you should also be for banning sliding plates on reiners, aluminum shoes on race horses, and caulks on jumpers and eventers. These types of shoes all allow these horses to use their legs in a way they would not otherwise be able to do.

[Niennor]

[QUOTE=The Preacher;6572368]
Niennor…Neither am I1 LOL! A big fan of religion, to me religion is all about man, their views, beliefs, interpretation and actions based on those beliefs.

Jesus said: “Take up your cross and follow me” I didn’t hear him say; follow the Baptist, follow the Catholics, or The Mormons, well you get the picture…

Every church I see believes THEY have found it, and they are the perfect church living under what they think God wants in a perfect church…will stand their and tell you how what other church is out there is not correct in the way they interpreted what was said in the Bible.

So I shun these entrapments…

I am simple, I just try to follow what I feel is da right thang to do…

After all, I can only speak for my own actions, I can also comment on other actions I see as not being helpful, uplifting, generous, sweet and akin to something I believe God would be pleased with.

So far, these issues we now face are things that I feel I have received confirmation on that are the right things to do.[/QUOTE]

Well, I’m not a believer in Jesus or god either. I believe in reason and I believe that people are responsible for their actions. I don’t know if there is an after life or not, but I think people need to do what’s right because their conscious tells them so, nit because something is written on a book.

I’m not a big believer in forgiveness either. Because most people don’t regret what suffering they cause to others, as long as they can get away with it. And I think some crimes are beyond forgiving.

[aarpaso]

NO other discipline,does what the BIG LICK does.remove the STACKS and pkges.change the rules for performance classes. this would end.

if they had done this 40 yrs ago we would not be here writing these letters to congress,if the AVMA and the AAEP also the AFA,found stacks and PKGS abusive,and stated so ,it would have ended long ago.

JMO

[CFFarm]

[QUOTE=Niennor;6572904]
Well, I’m not a believer in Jesus or god either. I believe in reason and I believe that people are responsible for their actions. I don’t know if there is an after life or not, but I think people need to do what’s right because their conscious tells them so, nit because something is written on a book.

I’m not a big believer in forgiveness either. Because most people don’t regret what suffering they cause to others, as long as they can get away with it. And I think some crimes are beyond forgiving.[/QUOTE]

You can be righteously indignant of course. But I feel one should always forgive because we are only homo sapiens (not my favorite species) and often fall to the lowest levels and should not join the fall by holding on to that negative karma, but…One doesn’t have to pardon those actions…enough deep thought. JMHO carry on…

[WalkInTheWoods]

I like the way the AQHA have presented their new rules.

http://aqha.com/Showing/News-Articles/09132012-Equipment-Rules.aspx

Their statement makes sense, to clean up their rules before public outcry draws more attention to their problems. Click on the fine and penalty chart. They are not messing around. Illegal equipment is not allowed on any horse show grounds period, even in a horse trailer. Very clickable to see pictures of legal and illegal equipment. Pictures are worth well you know.

http://www.aqha.com/About/Content-Pages/About-the-Association/Advocacy/Fines-and-Penalties.aspx

Earth to TWHBEA - why could you not be proactive instead of feverishly and bizarrely reactive ? Dont most breed associations have a rule book for showing ? Can anyone point it out to me on the TWHBEA page ? I think they leave it up to the various HIOs to set the rules. TWHBEA says they are just a breed registry organization. They dont set the rules. They have nothing to do with it. Their hands are clean. They want to be left out of it. Then why are they crossing that line into matters relating to showing by coming out with a statement that they dont support the HPA Amendment.(but not why) Hmmmm ? Does the amendment make some of your board members twitchy ? Getting a little confused about your nonparticipation in rulesetting TWHBEA ? Tennessee Walking Horses deserve better than you. The Whole Hateful Bunch Evading Appropriateness

[Rbow]

[QUOTE=cordial;6572715]
Yes, Really. I am not saying I am for or against it, but it won’t happen.[/QUOTE]

Come on. You have a 22 year old horse on stacks. It’s like having your grandmother in high heels.

You support it.

Give the horse a break.

[outofthebox]

[QUOTE=Renae;6572901]
outofthebox, the problem is there are other Walking Horse divisions where soring occurs too, and they are shod without pads, as well as Spotted Saddle Horses which also shod without pads. And I have personally seen dressage horses wearing shoes as heavy as what some lite shod Walking Horses wear. So where do you draw the line in the sand? In my experience the dimension of shoe allowed on a lite shod Walker is not enough to cause lameness or soreness in them of themselves, but it is enough weight to alter gait. Is altering gait a bad thing? In my opinion, no. If you think shoes that alter gait should not be used you should also be for banning sliding plates on reiners, aluminum shoes on race horses, and caulks on jumpers and eventers. These types of shoes all allow these horses to use their legs in a way they would not otherwise be able to do.[/QUOTE]

Let start with the stacks, are you defending stacks? I really don’t care how heavy or light a shoe is, as long as it is not jacking up the hoof.

[Niennor]

[QUOTE=CFFarm;6572964]
[/B]

You can be righteously indignant of course. But I feel one should always forgive because we are only homo sapiens (not my favorite species) and often fall to the lowest levels and should not join the fall by holding on to that negative karma, but…One doesn’t have to pardon those actions…enough deep thought. JMHO carry on…[/QUOTE]

I don’t know about homo sapiens being the only species able to forgive. I’ve seen dogs and horses forgive us for our mistakes, intentional or not. It may not man the same to them as it is to us, but i believe the ability to forgive is not inherently human. The ability to know right from wrong, however, is. the fact that someone or a group of people dos something they know is wrong and keep doing it for profit, per pressure, fame, whatever, is not something i can easily forgive, if ever.
Call me cold and unforgiving, if you will bu no, i don’t think all crimes deserve forgiveness. It’s just the way I am.

[walknsound]

[QUOTE=Niennor;6573199]
I don’t know homo sapiens being the only species able to forgive. I’ve seen dogs and horses forgive us for our mistakes, intentional or not. It may not man the same to them as it is to us, but i believe the ability to forgive is not inherently human. The ability to know right from wrong, however, is. the fact that someone or a group of people dos something they know is wrong and keep doing it for profit, per pressure, fame, whatever, is not something i can easily forgive, if ever.
Call me cold and unforgiving, if you will bu no, i don’t think all crimes deserve forgiveness. It’s just the way I am.[/QUOTE]
Like! That’s the way I am!!! Add vindictive to mine!!!

[Niennor]

[QUOTE=walknsound;6573219]
Like! That’s the way I am!!! Add vindictive to mine!!![/QUOTE]

Hah! Great minds thinks alike!:winkgrin:

[Malda]

I’ve never seen nor heard of a dressage horse wearing anything but a normal shoe. And even if there’s a horse out there wearing a “plantation shoe”, which is what lite shod Walkers wear, dressage is not a discipline that requires heavy shoes, unlike the big lick. Upper level dressage is achieved by training, the big lick cannot be trained, it must be nailed on.

[QUOTE=Renae;6572901]
. And I have personally seen dressage horses wearing shoes as heavy as what some lite shod Walking Horses wear. [/QUOTE]

[Renae]

[QUOTE=Malda;6573402]
I’ve never seen nor heard of a dressage horse wearing anything but a normal shoe. And even if there’s a horse out there wearing a “plantation shoe”, which is what lite shod Walkers wear, dressage is not a discipline that requires heavy shoes, unlike the big lick. Upper level dressage is achieved by training, the big lick cannot be trained, it must be nailed on.[/QUOTE]

Plantation shoes and lite shod shoes are very different things. As far as shoeing dressage horses http://www.americanfarriers.com/pages/Shoeing-Tips-Remember-These-Pointers-When-Under-Dressage-Horses.php

“Big lick” horses are not the only Walking Horses subjected to soring! Why can’t some of you understand that! Banning the pads will not end it. It is approaching the level of lunacy that goes with the line of thought that banning Pit Bulls will stop dog fighting. I am surprised no one has called for a ban on Walking Horses!

[outofthebox]

What is wrong with banning stacks of pads, as well as soring. Please, let me understand, do you think stacking up a foot is OK? I am not sure if the arguments against regulations are in support of stacks or not.

[Tasha_s_mom]

Injustices

[QUOTE=The Preacher;6570519]
Been over arguing with a bunch of versatility people on their FB page of which they did not want to hear about, talk about or know about anything political regarding the current affairs of the TWH.

. . . many a groom has been hurt by horses, I’m pretty confident some may have been lamed for life or even died.

. . . .

Do I really need to go into the injustices here? Can you draw your own conclusion without my help?

[Tasha_s_mom]

[QUOTE=Tasha’s mom;6573768]

[QUOTE=The Preacher;6570519]Been over arguing with a bunch of versatility people on their FB page of which they did not want to hear about, talk about or know about anything political regarding the current affairs of the TWH.

. . . many a groom has been hurt by horses, I’m pretty confident some may have been lamed for life or even died.

. . . .

Do I really need to go into the injustices here? Can you draw your own conclusion without my help?[/QUOTE]

Thank you, Preacher, for these thoughtful comments on Jeff Dockery and stable grooms. When you speak of injustices, I can’t help but wonder how many members of minority groups have suffered in other ways by soring horses. Are there any statistics on the number of big lick TWH stable employees who have been maimed, burned, hospitalized or passed early in their lives from the exposure to these hazardous chemicals? Have any studies been done to elucidate this issue, or is it not an issue? Moderators, if I am off topic please excuse my post or move it to wherever it should be. Thank you.