P.S. did you know Chairman of the Board was sold to Teon here in Alberta a few years ago. I don’t think he produced before he passed away however. I was very familar with him. I have many other lines than Charm and Bubbling Midnight Madness. You might want to look up on DATA sometime to see what I have been breeding. I do remember I asked you to send me some of your horses pedigrees and never heard back from you.
This is not a laundromat Fairfax. Take your dirty laundry elsewhere.
[QUOTE=Fairfax;6827659]
Mary…I haven’t. This is no different than the Julie thread (Izanalter) here on COTH where you stated you were taking one of her horses and others were trying to raise money to ship it to you. You also stated you had “no pot to pee in”
Someone else posted you shouldn’t take the horse if you had no money and couldn’t afford it…and then you AGAIN…changed your story and became defensive.
On TROT you did state you had given up Saddlebreds as your Dad’s lines did not win and you also made reference that NO ONE would breed to your stallion as they were old lines.
Therefore you gelded him (THAT was what you claimed…I have no proof you did or did NOT do that)
Chains alone, do NOT sore a horse…of any breed. Neither do rollers.
Chains, Rollers WITH a caustic substance will accelerate the soring but it needs that substance.
I will be happy to volunteer one of my Saddlebreds for any type of chain only test for soring. My horses go out into fields during the day and are in at night in stalls OR I also have 50 foot long paddocks by 20 feet wide with shelters for individual horses. I can not find any study that chains cause soring despite the urban legends presented. I have NO DOUBT they do cause soring when used inconjunction with a caustic product.[/QUOTE]
Ever gone jogging in the sand with chains on your bare ankles?
[QUOTE=Fairfax;6827810]
I wish your intense dislike and want to fight me on every thread would increase your reading and comprehension.
I stated IF SOME WANTED to use one of my saddlebreds for a study I would be pleased to do one here. NO WHERE does it state I have my horses in chains…I don’t need to…they have amazing action.
Trainers will use chains or rollers in a controlled training environment to get the horses to lift, use muscles i.e. resistance training and to let them know WHERE their feet are
I also clean out shelters and put the manure and shavings in long lines like a pinwheel design. I let it freeze in the round bull pen and then I lunge the horses so they lift while going over…the longer the line from the center…the longer their stride with lift. This is great for them as they can also stomp on it…no damage to legs nor hoof.
Chains or rollers are ONLY a tool to assist the process. They will NOT make a poor flexing non moving horse suddenly become world champion gaited material.[/QUOTE]
“and to let them know WHERE their feet are”
How kind of you to support putting chains on horses, otherwise they would go through life not knowing where their feet are. Heck, they couldn’t even walk out of the stall if they didn’t know where their feet are. It’s wonderful there are do gooders like you to make sure horses know where their feet are. You support abuse. That’s all I need to know about you.
[QUOTE=WalkInTheWoods;6827927]
This is not a laundromat Fairfax. Take your dirty laundry elsewhere.[/QUOTE]
Thank you.
WTH is up with the double posts.
[QUOTE=Fairfax;6824029]
With all of the claims and counter claims against Country divisions in flat show TWH’s I would be concerned that show secretaries will just drop all TWH classes. I believe that would be a shame. I am not sure what the solution will be.[/QUOTE]
I don’t see why it’s difficult to see the solution. Stop soring, period. The HIOs/Show managers/judges need to adopt a no tolerance policy like NWHA, IWHA and FOSH have. If the horse looks sore, he can’t show. Stop rewarding the horses crawling over the rail and the stepping pace. Stop rewarding the horses that are marching behind. Stop letting HPA violators back in the ring and not policing them when they’re on suspension. Three strikes and you’re out should do it. And get rid of the pads and chains yourselves, or at least go to a smaller package with no action devices. The solution is right there. The Industry just refuses to accept it.
[QUOTE=Fairfax;6826990]
okay…please enlighten me. In Arizona the best they can muster is a couple of entries for the TWH division… [/QUOTE]
Being from Arizona…ALLOW ME TO RETORT.
We used to have spectators walk out of the shows that had BL horses in them. They didn’t even know about soring and thought it looked so grotesque they just left. We chased the BL off for several reasons: first, because of the soring (and the trainers who came here are WELL KNOWN for how the “train” their horses) and because of all the complaints from other exhibitors about the rude trainers and riders. This was in 2005, long before McConnell’s tape. There were hardly ever any BL horses showing anyway–only one or two per class. Now our classes are anywhere from 7-12 in a class since the BL is gone and we’ve attracted the sound California folks. The show is NWHA affiliated and everyone enjoys it. So believe me, THE BIG LICK DOES NOT BRING IN THE SPECTATORS OUT HERE. NO ONE likes it, see it as ugly and cripping, and it is considered abusive, whether or not they know about soring. The BL image has ruined the TWH show horse out here in Arizona. It’s pretty much mostly the rednecks in TN and KY that love their crippled horse in the ring.
The lack of Arizona horses in the ring has nothing to do with the quality of horses in Arizona. It has to do with the fact that Arizona is a TRAIL RIDING state, and people don’t want to show. There is no “mustering up” to be done. There are many TWHs out here that are the duds you guys send out from Tennessee. They are so scarred both mentally and physically that they have to be completely retained. I know–I’ve had to retrain A LOT of them. These are animals who will rear if you try to touch their front feet and are terrified of a long shanked bit. I have one friend who if you touch his feet too much, he will “go somewhere else”…his eyes go blank and he literally checks out, the abuse was so bad for him. You guys ruined them, now you’re hiding the ruined ones by sending them out West. Finding a quality TWH in Arizona is near impossible.
And since the breed is now being bred to pace and step pace, they are no longer comfortable to ride. Plus they’re so poorly trained that they can’t be “controlled.” All they know is how to go fast fast fast, and you can’t stop them. So Arizona people are going for other gaited breeds, such as MFTs and RMHs. I’m seeing a small but very steady rise of Icelandics out here. The TWH is becoming less and less popular out here.
But overall, in Arizona, people just aren’t interested in showing. I know–I’ve been involved in the TWH horse community in Arizona for 14 years. I tried to run shows and get people to volunteer…they just don’t care. Showing is extremely expensive out here–we don’t have the hundreds of backyard shows people MUST have back in Tennessee where there’s no arena costs. Plus it’s time consuming, and the majority of our gaited horse population is baby boomers whose kids have left the nest and now they get to own a horse. They just want to relax on the trail. It has nothing to do with quality and everything to do with desire.
The show horses out here are QHs, Arabs, and Saddle seat (ASBs, NSHs, Morabs). And those numbers are falling as well in the middle class because it’s so damn expensive to show out here. When you want to go in just one class at a show and with all the fees it adds up to over $100 for just one class…people just aren’t doing it.
So please, spend some time in some of the other states first before you put a label on them. We’d appreciate it.
So, since we are talking some about quality of gait, it is true that TRUE WALKING Walking Horses are out there. Here are some of my favorite horses. If I had a breeding program, I would make sure to find mares that matched all five of these stallions.
Papa’s Royal Delight And he does all of this barefoot. He also does it bridleless in some of her videos.
The Eternal Flame I LOVE this stallion. His personality is wonderful. They come to AZ to our show every year and I go to their clinics. I haven’t ridden him yet–just haven’t had the chance.
Hardcastle’s Prime Sun I love him because he’s quite frankly the ONLY spotted TWH stallion I’ve seen that has a true RW in just a keg shoe.
All Around Midnight Unfortunately no videos of him yet, but MAN, he can move. He’s also dressage trained. Here’s a video of his owners riding at the WEGs. I think Banner’s Dixie Belle is All Around Midnight’s dam.
Excalibur’s Dark Knight. Just found out about this guy. The trainer/rider is the president of NWHA.
Not exciting? I think not. These horses are that much MORE exciting because they’re not man made and move naturally. They are clearly happy and sound.
I think one of my favorite things is that people think the TWH breed will go extinct if the BL goes away…I guess that means these wonderful stallions will just poof disappear off the planet if the BL is gone. Oh well…
[QUOTE=Fairfax;6827659]
Chains alone, do NOT sore a horse…of any breed. Neither do rollers…I can not find any study that chains cause soring despite the urban legends presented.[/QUOTE]
The Auburn Study (linked here) states that using chains heavier than 6 ozs without chemicals absolutely DO cause pain to a horse’s pasterns, including rubbing and hair loss. And even 6 oz chains can cause bruising if used for long periods of time. You might want to work some more on doing research.
[QUOTE=Fairfax;6827659]
Chains alone, do NOT sore a horse…of any breed. Neither do rollers…I can not find any study that chains cause soring despite the urban legends presented.[/QUOTE]
The Auburn Study (linked here) states that using chains heavier than 6 ozs without chemicals absolutely DO cause pain to a horse’s pasterns, including rubbing and hair loss. And even 6 oz chains can cause bruising if used for long periods of time. You might want to work some more on doing research.
The objectives of this study were to evaluate the use of 2, 4
and 6 ounce chains in Tennessee Walking Horses, without using any
other chemical or mechanical technique to induce inflammation.
Use of 2, 4 and 6 oz. chains did not cause any detectable pain,
tissue damage. Thermographic and pressure evaluation did not change
significantly. Thus, it was concluded that the use of 2, 4 and 6 oz.
chains for a duration of 2to 3 weeks did not produce any harmful
effects to the horses’ legs, with exception to some loss of hair
from 6 oz. chains in the pastern areas.
I have read the report numerous times and was unable to locate your claim that even 6 oz chains can cause bruising “in THIS study”
Please direct me to the study you are referring to regarding 6 oz chains.
My My My…what a stretch.
I do not support abuse period.
Chains when used as a training TOOL are no more abusive than a whip. Both can be used as weapons however THAT would be abuse.
Letting a horse know where its feet are when training to lift is very important. It also shows the trainer that when there is a tool used i.e. roller aor chain a cross forge might start to occur. This is VERY important to know for the farrier.
Do you train or show horses gogait?
I would appreciate your input from a training persepctive
Gotta add my favorite trainer - really finds and trains a nice powerful gait on the walking horse:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCCJZJQoG_M
She moved to Tennessee from Oregon just recently. SHe has been very successful for her flat shod walking horses before and after the move.
And FairFax - where ever you choose to go to get acquainted with the real deal walking horse’s gaits, breeding, trainers etc - here is what I would wish for you to do. When the trainer brings out one to ride - I want you to just turn your back or close your eyes and listen to the gait. Those pushing pulling true walking feet make a very unique sound - it is more than just a 4 beat… Once you hear it - the sound will never leave you. Then turn around, open your eyes and enjoy.
Maybe if you play nice enough they will let you hop up.
And no doubt you will see there is a whole lot of powerful grace in that rhythmic head nodding push and pull of the true walking horse.
I am very proud of a filly I bred ribboned as Reserve Champion Futurity at the Arizona Furity show a few years ago. I was also very pleased to be “gate control” for two years. I watched the TWH classes with one or two entries so I am very happy to read you stating there are increased numbers.
I have been showing at Scottsdale for around 50 years so I believe I have a little experience out of my backyard. The Arabian show last year actually showed an increase so manybe that will become a new trend. Any growth in any breed actually helps everyone
I do understand what you are saying about volunteering…no one wants to give their time and if the show is professionally run with the added expense many don’t want to enter.
I am sure you know Kathleen Ross Scopetti, Jerry Beghtol, Tim Cherry etc since you have been involved for 14 years.
Problem with BL is it does NOT appeal to the horseman but it does to the NON horse owner spectator. Celebration of the Horse held in Tacoma washington for many years featured a BL and the crowds would wait until he was coming in the ring so they could ooo and ahh
Shows are expensive if they are class A and there is a growing trend for those who want to participate but not pay for stabling etc to attend the B & C circuits. ASHA (Saddlebred) does list these wins when submitted in their data for the horse. It is a great promotional tool for any breed registration.
What I have stated is the TWH folk are going to have a great impact if they can mass enter shows to clearly demonstrate to spectators that flat shod classes are fun, exciting and are on horses that are a pleasure to be around.
I have the Walking Way from December 1986 to November 88 and if anyone is interested and willing to pay the surface postage from Canada I would be happy to send them. The magazine was known as the Pulse of the Plantation Industry and yuppers…they have my name on them on the address tab as I subscribed…while I do not know much about the breed I have watched it for many a year.
Hurleycane
I was so fortunate during the 80’s to visit the TWH farms of Rosemary Jordan around Edmonton and Helen Williamson of Calgary. Both allowed me to ride and enjoy that head nodding “ear flapping” gait. I have closed my eyes and listened to the beat. I do the same with the racking ASB’s…
As mentioned…my grandfather had a TWH for his own personal ranch mount. I do remember riding with him however I was too young to remember much about it. I will see if I can locate a picture of him …I do remember he was colored (Palomino)
Then Fairfax do you agree (or remember) that though they beat 4 in even time, there is a great difference in the foot sound and saddle feel of these two distinct gaits?
There is a difference in the sound for sure. The feel of the gait was strange…it wasn’t until Rosemary said…YES…she’s doing it…that I was able to relax “into” the gait and I felt like I was air kite gliding…We zooned along WITHOUT the rocking back and forth that usually bothers a persons back. I did NOT like the canter. I found it short gaited on both horses and very choppy to ride.
[QUOTE=FortheTWH;6828444]
The Auburn Study (linked here) states that using chains heavier than 6 ozs without chemicals absolutely DO cause pain to a horse’s pasterns, including rubbing and hair loss. And even 6 oz chains can cause bruising if used for long periods of time. You might want to work some more on doing research.[/QUOTE]
I do not believe this this correct. If you have a specific citation that would be a help.
It’s not the chain, itself, that is the issue. It’s the movement that the chain induces that is the problem. Whether you get this movement by a legal means (lawful action device) or a soring agent the net result is bad for the horse.
Action devices of any kind are the province of the incompetent, the lazy, and/or the ignorant. They are not “training devices” they are “anti-training devices.” We know this because as soon as you remove the device the desired action “goes away.” If it “trained” anything the action would persist; it doesn’t.
If the use is by the ignorant then they can learn the error of their ways and proceed in less harmful ways. If they choose not to learn or alter their behavior then we strike “ignorant” and replace it with “stupid” or “abusive.” Or maybe both.
G.
[QUOTE=Fairfax;6828853]
The objectives of this study were to evaluate the use of 2, 4
and 6 ounce chains in Tennessee Walking Horses, without using any
other chemical or mechanical technique to induce inflammation.
Use of 2, 4 and 6 oz. chains did not cause any detectable pain,
tissue damage. Thermographic and pressure evaluation did not change
significantly. Thus, it was concluded that the use of 2, 4 and 6 oz.
chains for a duration of 2to 3 weeks did not produce any harmful
effects to the horses’ legs, with exception to some loss of hair
from 6 oz. chains in the pastern areas.
I have read the report numerous times and was unable to locate your claim that even 6 oz chains can cause bruising “in THIS study”
Please direct me to the study you are referring to regarding 6 oz chains.[/QUOTE]
I want to see video of YOU jogging in the sand with 6 oz chains on your bare ankles for the same schedule you think is ok for horses. Make sure you get a fellow abuser to hitch a ride on your back.
