Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

[gogaitedgo]

[QUOTE=Fairfax;6828871]
My My My…what a stretch.

I do not support abuse period.

Chains when used as a training TOOL are no more abusive than a whip. Both can be used as weapons however THAT would be abuse.

Letting a horse know where its feet are when training to lift is very important. It also shows the trainer that when there is a tool used i.e. roller aor chain a cross forge might start to occur. This is VERY important to know for the farrier.

Do you train or show horses gogait?

I would appreciate your input from a training persepctive[/QUOTE]

I have trained and trail ridden with 3 different gaited mares. BAREFOOT in a SNAFFLE. Showing leads to abuse, in every discipline. How high does a horse have to lift to satisfy you? Are you EVER satisfied? Working on the video yet?

[Fairfax]

Point is…to some on other thread, a harness on a horse is ABUSE–see carriage horse thread.

Lazy? I don’t think so. Over at least 30 years they have done WHAT I EXPECTED them to. I live in an area where there is NO sand. No loam soil…we are desert dryland and have a very heavy type of soil. clay…

By using the chains, inconjunction with my previously described manure/shaving/ cavaletti, it helps them develope MUSCLE. I have stated chains will NOT give a horse action it does not have.

Guilherm…I have bred and trained numerous top ten and national champions in the Arabian division. I learned from old time trainers who were NEVER abusive but they did understand anatomy. Resistence training etc.

Gogait…is the rider abusive when they are on the horses back?

The chains are NOT…just because you THINK they are…the tests state NOPE. If you dispute that, then you must dispute that 8 oz or more cause soring…

Don’t cherry pick the study when it does not confirm what YOU want it to .

Do you train? Do you show? Please share your success with us and please share YOUR training techniques. Or…are you just a desk chair jockey.?

I get tired of posters taking bonifide tests and examinations and then discounting them because they do not agree.

Don’t use chains or rollers. But also don’t accuse others of abuse when the study states there is NO effect even with thermal imaging.

Also, don’t use wood bar cavaletti’s–you can bang the sole or clip the toe causing soreness.

[gogaitedgo]

“Problem with BL is it does NOT appeal to the horseman but it does to the NON horse owner spectator.”

No it doesn’t. NO ONE, horse owner or not I have ever shown that abusive crap to liked it or thought it was “pretty.”. It takes a special, sick mind to get off on a beautiful animals agony. Those “people” cheering? Lickers one and all.

[Fairfax]

What type of lift did you accomplish? As long as it was to the class specifications, then so be it. Or wait…trail ridden…there you go…as long as it can step over a stone, that is all it is asked of it.

Showing does NOT lead to abuse. I know people who have shown all of their life and they love it and their horses and there is absolutely NO abuse. Conversley, I have seen trail riders abusing their horses with poor fitting equipment, no shoes on a rocky terrain.spurring, whipping… you name it.

I guess you must attack others which tends to point out “you were caught” cherry picking the study.

Did you know the Snaffle can be one of the most abusive bits known within the equestrian circle. there IS a group trying to have them outlawed.

Also, many trainers have to reclaim a horses mouth after the Ammy tried to push the horse into the bit.

[Fairfax]

Sadly…a few of you are blinded by your own contemp of anyone who is Not You/

I stated the NON horse people in the stands who do not know what the horse has to go through just think they are trained to do that…they don’t consider how the horse is trained. That is why the stands will filled at Celebration.

Spectators watch car races…they don’t understand the work going into it. They go to drink beer and cheer. If they see a BL class they don’t take time to analyze it.

Since the contempt for horse shows is showing…why don’t you get all shows for TWH’s stopped. Enjoy them on the trail, in the field and stay away from the show ring.

That is a final solution that should work. I juwswt don’t think everyone on this board who owns TWH’s will agree with that.

[Fairfax]

As long as you are honest and clearly state you disagree with ALL show ring activities for the TWH I can live with that. But don’t hide behind a smug veil of self righteousness.

The Preacher who who many of you slobber over admit they have become KINDER trainers…his wife trained and rode BL. They now train plantation style .

[microbovine]

The studies being referred to here are outdated and used a low test sample (8 horses in the Auburn). Due to flaws and dating of the original studies, the AAEP recommended additional studies in their summary.

(This is the Google docs version for easier reading).

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:w8jMzZwPYcMJ:www.aaep.org/images/files/AAEP%20White%20Paper%20on%20TWH%20Soring.pdf+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiv3yf0W0Xlxo8dOf5bEfMhwc6NYTrTwkiE0eeNCPepHRoRGmnddmwmfyEnKbd-vwIs5FwIse6VUQWc0ckHmIffibk6zcawsq90If4ge0JP_V14z58Dx68Ij-LLpU8LTxD5s1X7&sig=AHIEtbR7s0vzVL-h_SwLMK5ralYLJv_U6Q

Every horseman knows that the coronet band is sensitive. Add on the known practice of teaching TWHs not to flinch in the arena and the fact that heavier chains are used outside the show ring and you have yourself a bad reputation and a public that is sick to death of the entire practice.

[gogaitedgo]

[QUOTE=Fairfax;6829739]
What type of lift did you accomplish? As long as it was to the class specifications, then so be it. Or wait…trail ridden…there you go…as long as it can step over a stone, that is all it is asked of it.

Showing does NOT lead to abuse. I know people who have shown all of their life and they love it and their horses and there is absolutely NO abuse. Conversley, I have seen trail riders abusing their horses with poor fitting equipment, no shoes on a rocky terrain.spurring, whipping… you name it.

I guess you must attack others which tends to point out “you were caught” cherry picking the study.

Did you know the Snaffle can be one of the most abusive bits known within the equestrian circle. there IS a group trying to have them outlawed.

Also, many trainers have to reclaim a horses mouth after the Ammy tried to push the horse into the bit.[/QUOTE]

I didn’t cherry pick anything. I just said I would like to see you have to do what you think is not abusive. Yeah, you are one of those show snobs. If it doesn’t happen in front of a paid judge, it doesn’t mean anything. And yes,showing leads to abuse. Horses, dogs, cats, bunnies, anywhere man gets involved to “improve” things.

[gogaitedgo]

[QUOTE=Fairfax;6829747]
Sadly…a few of you are blinded by your own contemp of anyone who is Not You/

I stated the NON horse people in the stands who do not know what the horse has to go through just think they are trained to do that…they don’t consider how the horse is trained. That is why the stands will filled at Celebration.

Spectators watch car races…they don’t understand the work going into it. They go to drink beer and cheer. If they see a BL class they don’t take time to analyze it.

Since the contempt for horse shows is showing…why don’t you get all shows for TWH’s stopped. Enjoy them on the trail, in the field and stay away from the show ring.

That is a final solution that should work. I juwswt don’t think everyone on this board who owns TWH’s will agree with that.[/QUOTE]

I want the abuse stopped. Other than that, you can ride in a circle and pay to pretend you are H/S all day long.

[gogaitedgo]

[QUOTE=Fairfax;6829761]
As long as you are honest and clearly state you disagree with ALL show ring activities for the TWH I can live with that. But don’t hide behind a smug veil of self righteousness.

The Preacher who who many of you slobber over admit they have become KINDER trainers…his wife trained and rode BL. They now train plantation style .[/QUOTE]

I don’t slobber over anyone.

[Fairfax]

That poster specifically stated Auburn. That was why I ask. Until quantitative studies are completed the jury will have to be out. The TWH horse does have a disadvantage. They SHOW with chains.

[microbovine]

In all fairness, there are many show practices that are horrid. It takes the mentality of winning over the comfort of the horse to come up with some of the vile practices in almost every type of horse show. Let’s see, we’ve got rollkur in dressage, halter Arabians, western pleasure, jackpot barrel racing, just to name a few controversies.

I find it interesting that so many new horse sports are out there now. Mounted shooting (which looks like a lot of fun), ranch horse events, and extreme trail riding (some of which make me flinch) are all relatively recent additions. I think the new directions people try with their horses are many times due to disillusionment with the traditional horse shows. I hope we continue to evolve and diversify because it takes time for the win-at-all-cost types to figure out how to manipulate the training and turn a fairly normal event into something grotesque.

I think one reason the BL shows are so bad is that they have been around so long and people keep pushing the horses further and further until the show gait isn’t recognizable to anyone outside of the dedicated enthusiast. It’s slow conditioning to a new normal and then people defending the practices of those that came before them as well as adding on new ‘tricks’ until many horse people outside of BL folks feel physically ill watching shows. It takes time to get to that extreme.

[CFFarm]

40 years ago at Devon, I remember watching a pet pony class. There was 3 or 4 Saddlebred and Hackney ponies and a local girl with her typical Welsh cross. Her pony was spot on. Never made a bad move while the others jigged and fussed about (read the guidelines for a pet pony class) Of course, she was pinned at the bottom. The comment I remember hearing at ringside was “It’s a good thing “Little Megan” got pinned. Dad spent a lot of bucks on that pony”.

Not impressed with “Champion anything” after that. I need to see the work. After that I showed with a grain of salt and the ribbons weren’t quite as brightly colored.

Sorry, just rambling. Back to the bickering. Meanwhile the horses are still hurting.

[Renae]

@CFFarm;6830738

40 years ago at Devon, I remember watching a pet pony class. There was 3 or 4 Saddlebred and Hackney ponies and a local girl with her typical Welsh cross. Her pony was spot on. Never made a bad move while the others jigged and fussed about (read the guidelines for a pet pony class) Of course, she was pinned at the bottom. The comment I remember hearing at ringside was “It’s a good thing “Little Megan” got pinned. Dad spent a lot of bucks on that pony”.

Pet pony? Really? Pet Pony classes that I am familiar with are for ponies 12 hands and under, which would be a highly unusually small size for a Saddlebred Pony. Being that the class was at Devon it is more likely that the class was Three-Gaited Saddle Pony, which is judged as a Three-Gaited Saddlebred class, and though the ponies do not have to be registered anything they are to be of Saddlebred type. They perfrom an animated walk (which can be four or two beat, but should not be a flat four beat walk), park trot and canter.

Again this thread is wandering back to the area of reasoning on the parts of some that shows why those of us who do enjoy showing Saddlebreds, Morgans, Hackneys and Arabians do not offer support to your efforts. Yes, soring is horrible. Using action devices and shoeing our horses properly for the discipline we compete in is not soring. It does not injure the horse. We can argue back and forth all day but training saddle seat trotting horses is what I actually do for a living and that I am argueing with people who have never done so (and some of you who have never even seen a Saddlebred, Morgan, Arabian or Hackney show horse or pony) and who have no first hand experience is just pointless. Many here say they want this thread to be abou Walking Horses and soring. Then I am telling YOU to stay on topic.

[FortheTWH]

[QUOTE=Fairfax;6828927]
I am sure you know Kathleen Ross Scopetti, Jerry Beghtol, Tim Cherry etc since you have been involved for 14 years.

Problem with BL is it does NOT appeal to the horseman but it does to the NON horse owner spectator. [/QUOTE]

Thank you for throwing names around, but it really doesn’t impress me as to who you know. I’m talking about the Carousel horse show, not the Arabian Horse Show. That place is a haven for abuse…no thanks. I only go for the vendors.

No, it’s not appealing to the non-horse spectator too. Take a look at comments on YouTube–people are disgusted by it from all walks of life. Like I said, I saw spectators walk away from the BL classes with disgusted looks on their faces. I stopped them to ask why they were leaving and they told me because it was so ugly and the horses must be in horrible pain. This was when I still thought the BL was okay and soring wasn’t going on anymore…now I know better.

BUT, you also pointed something out there: That it doesn’t appeal to the horseman. You’re exactly right. TRUE horsemen know better not to force their horses to look like crippled spiders in order to win a ribbon. And if there aren’t any horsemen getting into the business, then how is it going to survive?

[FortheTWH]

I’ve actually had horses that came up with bruises after using 6 oz chains before. I didn’t say that that information was included in the Auburn Study. But my point is you were saying there was no study done about chains causing soring, and there in fact is. I like how you try to double back on what you say…it’s very much like so many other people who support the BL.

[FortheTWH]

No, chains don’t help develop muscle. A horse gets used to chains after just a few seconds of wearing them. And it’s been proven by Dr. Nicodemus that chains do not change the arch of a horse’s hoof–they do nothing to make the horse lift his legs higher. Click here–see use of Pastern Chain Weights slide.

[FortheTWH]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;6829437]
I do not believe this this correct. If you have a specific citation that would be a help.[/QUOTE]

See Phase VI: Determination of Thermographic Patterns in Response to
l0 oz. chains starting on page 4 of the Auburn Study.

[FortheTWH]

[QUOTE=microbovine;6830266]
In all fairness, there are many show practices that are horrid. [/QUOTE]

True, but soring is the only practice that actually has a federal law that makes it illegal. That’s where my fight comes from. If someone makes a law against the rest of the stuff, I’ll get behind in 100%.

And shoot, the BL isn’t even a running walk anymore. Most of those horses are stepping pacing or dead pacing. The gait has been completely ruined.

[FortheTWH]

[QUOTE=Fairfax;6829739]
Showing does NOT lead to abuse.[/QUOTE]

Then why does abuse exist in the show ring, and why do judges still reward it?

And as far as I know, allowing horses to go natural barefoot is NOT abuse. There are entire studies done on it and vets and various farriers who are all for it.