Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

[FortheTWH]

“Sadly…a few of you are blinded by your own contemp of anyone who is Not You/”

Hello, Kettle? This is Pot. You’re black.

“I stated the NON horse people in the stands who do not know what the horse has to go through just think they are trained to do that…they don’t consider how the horse is trained. That is why the stands will filled at Celebration.”

ROTFL! They certainly weren’t filled last year! One look at the videos shows you TONS of empty seats at the Celebration, even for the final WGC class.

“Spectators watch car races…they don’t understand the work going into it. They go to drink beer and cheer. If they see a BL class they don’t take time to analyze it.”

You don’t get it, do you? They are DISGUSTED by the look, and they don’t WANT to learn about it because it’s ugly. Why would anyone want to learn about something that repulses them? People who hate spiders don’t go out and buy books about them. They walk away and don’t go near them.

And quite frankly, all of the NASCAR fans I know absolutely DO know how the cars work and the work that goes into it. Same with basketball fans, baseball fans, polo fans, hockey fans… You are really stretching to prove your point.

“Since the contempt for horse shows is showing…why don’t you get all shows for TWH’s stopped. Enjoy them on the trail, in the field and stay away from the show ring.”

Sounds great to me. If that’s what it would take to stop the abuse, I’m all for it. I’m sick and tired of listening to the excuses and the lies. Everyone has to justify why they need to torture horses…how about let’s just take away the ability to do it all together? The cheaters and those who support them have completely abused the privilege of not only putting whatever they want on the horse’s feet but also the privilege of owning and training horses. It’s time for a true end to soring, NOW, once and for all.

Horse shows, no matter what breed or discipline, are all about the judge’s, trainer’s, and rider’s egos. It’s very, very rare to find riders who are actually trying to improve on their craft and better themselves and their partnership with the horses. I would say only in the Olympics do we see the true meaning of horsemanship, and even then it can be iffy.

[Fairfax]

I wasn’t talking about Arab shows. The Carousel Show is held in March. The show I was referring to at Westworld that I donated my time to was the last of the series in October. I have Saddlebreds.

[Fairfax]

[QUOTE=FortheTWH;6831371]
“Sadly…a few of you are blinded by your own contemp of anyone who is Not You/”

Hello, Kettle? This is Pot. You’re black.

“I stated the NON horse people in the stands who do not know what the horse has to go through just think they are trained to do that…they don’t consider how the horse is trained. That is why the stands will filled at Celebration.”

ROTFL! They certainly weren’t filled last year! One look at the videos shows you TONS of empty seats at the Celebration, even for the final WGC class.

“Spectators watch car races…they don’t understand the work going into it. They go to drink beer and cheer. If they see a BL class they don’t take time to analyze it.”

You don’t get it, do you? They are DISGUSTED by the look, and they don’t WANT to learn about it because it’s ugly. Why would anyone want to learn about something that repulses them? People who hate spiders don’t go out and buy books about them. They walk away and don’t go near them.

And quite frankly, all of the NASCAR fans I know absolutely DO know how the cars work and the work that goes into it. Same with basketball fans, baseball fans, polo fans, hockey fans… You are really stretching to prove your point.

“Since the contempt for horse shows is showing…why don’t you get all shows for TWH’s stopped. Enjoy them on the trail, in the field and stay away from the show ring.”

Sounds great to me. If that’s what it would take to stop the abuse, I’m all for it. I’m sick and tired of listening to the excuses and the lies. Everyone has to justify why they need to torture horses…how about let’s just take away the ability to do it all together? The cheaters and those who support them have completely abused the privilege of not only putting whatever they want on the horse’s feet but also the privilege of owning and training horses. It’s time for a true end to soring, NOW, once and for all.

Horse shows, no matter what breed or discipline, are all about the judge’s, trainer’s, and rider’s egos. It’s very, very rare to find riders who are actually trying to improve on their craft and better themselves and their partnership with the horses. I would say only in the Olympics do we see the true meaning of horsemanship, and even then it can be iffy.[/QUOTE]

You need to get out of Arizona or read this tread from start to finish. Celebration spectators did stay away THIS year. That was due to the awesome letter writing, the expose on the abuse, the articles (right or wrong) by Roy.

The year before the stands will full. No…the average nascar viewer could not build a car from scratch, learn the ins andouts of driving at those high speeds. The average spectator of a hockey game doesn’t understand the edges on skates and the hours of practice going into stick handling. Why do you think on the TV in the states many times there is a blue circle showing WHERE the puck is.

Many fans DO understand the sports they support and many can spout the running records of every football player. Doesn’t mean they could go out and make the quarter back calls.

The horses were the same. Spectators…those who are just there because it is part of the celebration don’t know what a stack is. They don’t have a clue about mustard oil and dmso cocktails. All they know is the horse moves in a Freaky manner…they do NOT know about the abuse.

I don’t know about barefoot classes… how about if others who do show the TWH comment on that…would there be a demand in the show ring? A horse show is to SHOW the horse…hopefully to expand a client base. All the trail riding doesn’t promote a breed except to “already” horse owners

Plantation flat shod classes seem to have their soring issues.

[FortheTWH]

Thank you, Fairfax. You just proved everyone’s points here. You have to find excuses to keep your precious stacked horses in the ring. When presented with facts, even anecdotal ones, you have to fight it. It’s very clear that you have no problem with things as they are.

Actually, I have been to A LOT of sore horse shows in CA. Watched soring first hand when the BL was present at the Carousel. And since you didn’t do work at the Carousel, then how do you know what’s been going on at it? The Futurity is not a big show for any of the other gaited breeds other than the ASBs.

So my final question for you is this: if you are truly against soring, what are you doing to help stop it? Are you contacting the HIOs and asking for stronger penalties, or do you think the penalties are good enough, which they aren’t since soring is still rampant? Are you asking for people like McConnell to be banned from showing for life, or are you helping support those people by praising their “training” abilities? Are you standing up against the HIOs and saying ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, or are you just letting them “handle it”, when they clearly can’t stop soring after over 40 years of the HPA being in place? Are you turning your back when known multiple HPA violators enter the ring, or do you continue to cheer them on?

Coming on here and trying to discount everything we say does nothing but confirm our suspicions: that people want the sore horse to stay in the ring, period. If this industry TRULY wanted sore horses to be gone, they could easily get rid of them. But since they’re not going to do it, I’m going to keep exposing the lies and excuses for what they truly are, and I’m going to continue to support the USDA and the new amendment when it gets reintroduced.

[FortheTWH]

I NEED TO POINT THIS OUT. Someone was kind enough to send me a message and say that not all horse events are about egos. I absolutely agree with this person, that people in eventing, cross country, dressage, polo, competitive driving, Grand prix, endurance, the TRUE horse sports are absolutely places where the rider and the horse are always having to work hard together and challenge themselves to do better. (I don’t include TB racing in this, however.) Sure, there are cheaters, but they’re rare, and at least the associations are actually looking for them and they are severely punished for it or even banned.

The rail classes are the places where it’s all about the humans’ egos. Cheaters are common, and judges reward the cheaters on a regular basis even when they KNOW they’re cheating, so no one has incentive NOT to cheat. This is where we need to see this end. Rail horse shows have become ridiculous parodies of what the horses once were, and many times abuse is used to get those parodies. It absolutely needs to end.

[Renae]

ForTheTWH you really are nieve. Polo? They just recently started drug testing their ponies after the big fiasco in their sport of 21 ponies dieing after a compounding error with a drug they were given. Every other horse sport you have named has drug problems as well. Dressage has rolkur. Eventing and combined driving have horrific accidents where horses die or are severely injured. At the 2002 World Equestrian Games 2 endurance horses were ridden to death.

To single out rail classes for your attack and think these other disciplines are completely above it all, that is about the most nieve statement I have ever heard.

You ask why people don’t support your actions. We don’t support your actions because you are attacking our breeds, which do not use soring (Saddlebreds, Morgans, Hackneys, Arabians), and condeming us for enjoying saddle seat riding. Action devices do not sore, or have any greater risk of injury to the horse than a saddle, bridle or harness. As has been pointed out a horse is just as at risk for injury being asked to trot over caveletti. Shoeing a trotting saddle seat horse appropriately for the sport does not cause lameness. You can continue to shriek otherwise, but that does not make your rants true.

[microbovine]

[QUOTE=Renae;6830808]
Pet pony? Really? Pet Pony classes that I am familiar with are for ponies 12 hands and under, which would be a highly unusually small size for a Saddlebred Pony. Being that the class was at Devon it is more likely that the class was Three-Gaited Saddle Pony, which is judged as a Three-Gaited Saddlebred class, and though the ponies do not have to be registered anything they are to be of Saddlebred type. They perfrom an animated walk (which can be four or two beat, but should not be a flat four beat walk), park trot and canter.

Again this thread is wandering back to the area of reasoning on the parts of some that shows why those of us who do enjoy showing Saddlebreds, Morgans, Hackneys and Arabians do not offer support to your efforts. Yes, soring is horrible. Using action devices and shoeing our horses properly for the discipline we compete in is not soring. It does not injure the horse. We can argue back and forth all day but training saddle seat trotting horses is what I actually do for a living and that I am argueing with people who have never done so (and some of you who have never even seen a Saddlebred, Morgan, Arabian or Hackney show horse or pony) and who have no first hand experience is just pointless. Many here say they want this thread to be abou Walking Horses and soring. Then I am telling YOU to stay on topic.[/QUOTE]

I rescued a Morgan mare recently that had been trained for saddleseat shows. She is calm and relaxed on the trail. She is terrified in the arena. Your chains and training isn’t all sunshine and daisies. Previous owners said she was sent off to a big name trainer and came back like that. They told me it isn’t unusual for that to happen. Tell me, did you train your horse yourself? Were you there at EVERY training session? DO you know every little trick your trainer used? All the proof I need is in my horse’s frightened eyes.

[Renae]

[QUOTE=microbovine;6832063]
I rescued a Morgan mare recently that had been trained for saddleseat shows. She is calm and relaxed on the trail. She is terrified in the arena. Your chains and training isn’t all sunshine and daisies. Previous owners said she was sent off to a big name trainer and came back like that. They told me it isn’t unusual for that to happen. Tell me, did you train your horse yourself? Were you there at EVERY training session? DO you know every little trick your trainer used? All the proof I need is in my horse’s frightened eyes.[/QUOTE]

I am a Saddlebred trainer. I have trained Arabians, Half-Arabians and Hackneys as well. Yes, it is unusual for that to happen, so if you have someone saying that it is usual then I would highly suggest you avoid them.

[microbovine]

Thanks for the input, but I would not have any use for a saddlebred trainer. If you aren’t abusive, I fear you are in the minority.

That being said, I am pretty much soured off breed type shows. If I ever step into a competition arena again, it will be doing something wildly fun, like mounted shooting. I was an excellent shot in the military (qualified sharpshooter and then expert) and I think it would be fun to combine that with riding.

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=Renae;6832031]
ForTheTWH you really are nieve. Polo? They just recently started drug testing their ponies after the big fiasco in their sport of 21 ponies dieing after a compounding error with a drug they were given. Every other horse sport you have named has drug problems as well. Dressage has rolkur. Eventing and combined driving have horrific accidents where horses die or are severely injured. At the 2002 World Equestrian Games 2 endurance horses were ridden to death.

To single out rail classes for your attack and think these other disciplines are completely above it all, that is about the most nieve statement I have ever heard.

You ask why people don’t support your actions. We don’t support your actions because you are attacking our breeds, which do not use soring (Saddlebreds, Morgans, Hackneys, Arabians), and condeming us for enjoying saddle seat riding. Action devices do not sore, or have any greater risk of injury to the horse than a saddle, bridle or harness. As has been pointed out a horse is just as at risk for injury being asked to trot over caveletti. Shoeing a trotting saddle seat horse appropriately for the sport does not cause lameness. You can continue to shriek otherwise, but that does not make your rants true.[/QUOTE]

The commonly sold item in tack shops are saddle pads. I’d bet money that “rose colored glasses” are second.

G.

[FortheTWH]

“You ask why people don’t support your actions.”

I never asked that. I don’t care if people support my actions or not. What I want to see support of is the end of soring, pads, chains, action devices, and all this crap in the show ring. Let’s start seeing people actually stand up for the horse for once and be serious about real training practices that aren’t designed to force the horse to move in a certain way.

“We don’t support your actions because you are attacking our breeds, which do not use soring (Saddlebreds, Morgans, Hackneys, Arabians), and condeming us for enjoying saddle seat riding.”

I’m not attacking the breeds at all. The breeds–that is, the horses themselves–are completely innocent and the voiceless victims to the abuses in the show ring. Quite frankly, if the horses could scream, then this would have ended a long time ago.

I’m attacking the people who feel it’s necessary to use abuse to “train” horses. I’m sorry, but forcing a horse to carry itself in an upside down frame simply because it looks kewl is abusive. The ASB community wonders why lordosis is so common…maybe it’s because they put their horses in bitting rigs and force them to live in them. Then they’re ridden with hands high up in the air to force the horse to keep his head up and hollow out his back. Plus they’re started young, as a yearling, when their bones still need exercise but don’t need to be ridden at the levels that a 10 year old horse can to be shown at. Shoot, all areas start horses too young.Read the Ranger Study and it’ll reveal why allowing horses to grow before forcing them to be ridden like they’re 10 years old is a problem. Caveat: I AM NOT SAYING RIDING TWO YEAR OLDS IS WRONG. But riding them in the show ring and starting horses before they’re two is ABSOLUTELY wrong. The poor creature has his whole life to learn things…give him time to grow and learn slowly! You can’t expect a 10 year old kid who is showing a propensity for math to do calculus…why ask 2 year old horses to perform at the level of finished show horses?

And quite frankly, if Saddleseat were a true sport, then it’d be at the Olympics. Rolkur has been banned from the USEF and the Olympics, AND when people get caught cheating with drugs and the like at those events they are actually punished instead of consistently rewarded. Look at how many horses were stripped of their medals in the past two Olympics because of drugs. That can’t be said for the rail classes. I can go on and on about how instances of cheaters is rare in those areas. Overall, though, pointing the finger at others doesn’t make what’s going on in the rail classes okay.

I’ll post this picture as evidence of an Arab that has the bands so tight it’s caused bruising in his feet. As far as I understand, this photo was taken last year at an Arab show in California. Of course, I’m sure no one’s horses are ever subjected to this, amiright? Because NO ONE EVER abuses their horses. Never mind all the evidence to the contrary.

Abuse comes in many forms. Just because the horse looks healthy doesn’t mean there isn’t something going on underneath. But please, everyone, just say it–this is an isolated case, horses at my shows and my trainers’ barn don’t EVER look like this, this horse should’ve been thrown out…give us all the excuses needed, but be sure to turn a blind eye to the horses seen everyday that are abused and be sure to call it normal. It’s what people who show on the rail are best at.

[FortheTWH]

THANK YOU, microbovine. I absolutely agree. I’m thinking about competitive driving myself. Lots of work is gone into the care of the horses and correct training. Plus they don’t care if your horses wear shoes or not, and the horse that actually moves naturally to his form performs better than those who are forced into an incorrect frame.

[FortheTWH]

“Polo? They just recently started drug testing their ponies after the big fiasco in their sport of 21 ponies dieing after a compounding error with a drug they were given.”

And by the way, at least they actually ARE drug testing now, which is far more than we can say for the TWH industry and quite frankly the Saddle seat industry as a whole.

[Renae]

[QUOTE=FortheTWH;6832168]
“Polo? They just recently started drug testing their ponies after the big fiasco in their sport of 21 ponies dieing after a compounding error with a drug they were given.”

And by the way, at least they actually ARE drug testing now, which is far more than we can say for the TWH industry and quite frankly the Saddle seat industry as a whole.[/QUOTE]

All of the Saddle Seat Trotting breeds are governed by USEF and follow the same drug rules as dressage, jumpers, driving, and every other USEF breed and discipline. Plus USEF sponors a Saddle Seat World Cup team. Get your facts straight.

[frugalannie]

Just need to jump in with a fact break.

The 21 polo ponies that died were given an incorrectly compounded version of a vitamin and mineral supplement that is legal in most of the world. I can’t say for sure that the supplement is legal in the US, but the components are. However, the incorrect concentrations that were given proved to be lethal.

And yes, horses do die in sport. It breaks the participants’ hearts when it happens, and the sports that I’m familiar with have been making every effort to decrease the risk of serious injury or death to both horses and riders. As a result, such outcomes have been decreasing, but they will likely never reach zero much as we might want them to. Nonetheless, research continues to the extent that every horse that dies at a sanctioned event, for example, must have a necropsy done and the results are analyzed and collected so that someday we may learn to decrease risk even further.

Sorry. Didn’t mean to veer off the track of this discussion.

[hurleycane]

The problem and the reason for the inclusion of other high stepping breeds in this discussion is that HR6388 proposes to ban action devices in the Racking, TWH ans Spotted saddle horse breed shows/exhibitions for good reason. And that is the extreme to which those breeds took them (chains in the ring, shoes by the multi pound and pads by the stack). And having been given every opportunity to self regulate - they failed to see the need for limits and such on what a trainer or owner could subject a horse to in order to get a high step.

And other than class limitations on saddleseat breed shows, there really is no limit as to what can be done or attached to a foot.

I think what should be considered is a limit on how a device is attached. From my point of view, anytime you need to put a hose clamp on a shoe or stack to hold it on - you have just gone too far.

But when I try to open this up for discussion - people skim over it.

It is worthy of discussion IMO. Along with no chains or stretchies in the show ring -I think the bands need to go. And that would be for all saddle seat divisions - not just the gaited only breed shows.

Thoughts?

[hurleycane]

And I want to add, back in the day for me and saddlebreds - specially at A-rated shows - they were getting urine samples.

[CFFarm]

[QUOTE=Renae;6830808]
Pet pony? Really? Pet Pony classes that I am familiar with are for ponies 12 hands and under, which would be a highly unusually small size for a Saddlebred Pony. Being that the class was at Devon it is more likely that the class was Three-Gaited Saddle Pony, which is judged as a Three-Gaited Saddlebred class, and though the ponies do not have to be registered anything they are to be of Saddlebred type. They perfrom an animated walk (which can be four or two beat, but should not be a flat four beat walk), park trot and canter.

Again this thread is wandering back to the area of reasoning on the parts of some that shows why those of us who do enjoy showing Saddlebreds, Morgans, Hackneys and Arabians do not offer support to your efforts. Yes, soring is horrible. Using action devices and shoeing our horses properly for the discipline we compete in is not soring. It does not injure the horse. We can argue back and forth all day but training saddle seat trotting horses is what I actually do for a living and that I am argueing with people who have never done so (and some of you who have never even seen a Saddlebred, Morgan, Arabian or Hackney show horse or pony) and who have no first hand experience is just pointless. Many here say they want this thread to be abou Walking Horses and soring. Then I am telling YOU to stay on topic.[/QUOTE]

It was a pet pony class. Judged on the manners and suitable to the child. I refuse to make this personal but you have no idea of the championships and awards we won in the Saddlebred world. Judging show horses in subjective. Always will be. But, you are right, we should stay on topic. My comments were in regard to those that think winning a BL class proves their horses are sane and sound.

[CFFarm]

[QUOTE=hurleycane;6832333]
The problem and the reason for the inclusion of other high stepping breeds in this discussion is that HR6388 proposes to ban action devices in the Racking, TWH ans Spotted saddle horse breed shows/exhibitions for good reason. And that is the extreme to which those breeds took them (chains in the ring, shoes by the multi pound and pads by the stack). And having been given every opportunity to self regulate - they failed to see the need for limits and such on what a trainer or owner could subject a horse to in order to get a high step.

And other than class limitations on saddleseat breed shows, there really is no limit as to what can be done or attached to a foot.

I think what should be considered is a limit on how a device is attached. From my point of view, anytime you need to put a hose clamp on a shoe or stack to hold it on - you have just gone too far.

But when I try to open this up for discussion - people skim over it.

It is worthy of discussion IMO. Along with no chains or stretchies in the show ring -I think the bands need to go. And that would be for all saddle seat divisions - not just the gaited only breed shows.

Thoughts?[/QUOTE]

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes!

[Fairfax]

[QUOTE=FortheTWH;6831910]
Thank you, Fairfax. You just proved everyone’s points here. You have to find excuses to keep your precious stacked horses in the ring. When presented with facts, even anecdotal ones, you have to fight it. It’s very clear that you have no problem with things as they are.

Actually, I have been to A LOT of sore horse shows in CA. Watched soring first hand when the BL was present at the Carousel. And since you didn’t do work at the Carousel, then how do you know what’s been going on at it? The Futurity is not a big show for any of the other gaited breeds other than the ASBs.

So my final question for you is this: if you are truly against soring, what are you doing to help stop it? Are you contacting the HIOs and asking for stronger penalties, or do you think the penalties are good enough, which they aren’t since soring is still rampant? Are you asking for people like McConnell to be banned from showing for life, or are you helping support those people by praising their “training” abilities? Are you standing up against the HIOs and saying ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, or are you just letting them “handle it”, when they clearly can’t stop soring after over 40 years of the HPA being in place? Are you turning your back when known multiple HPA violators enter the ring, or do you continue to cheer them on?

Coming on here and trying to discount everything we say does nothing but confirm our suspicions: that people want the sore horse to stay in the ring, period. If this industry TRULY wanted sore horses to be gone, they could easily get rid of them. But since they’re not going to do it, I’m going to keep exposing the lies and excuses for what they truly are, and I’m going to continue to support the USDA and the new amendment when it gets reintroduced.[/QUOTE]

I have stated from day one (again, that does require you start reading from the first post) that I am against soring.

In Canada, BL is ILLEGAL…no more and no less

I find it amazing that so many TWH plantation owners are NOT involved in any anti soring campaign. The number of posters on this forum is very small which leads me to believe that many just don’t want to rock any boat…leave things as they are.

I have written lettersa but more important, I PHONE and speak with reps or their aids.

I am not sure where you read, posted by me OR were able to interpret from my post that I support stacks. Other than theraputic.

IF you read my post I clearly (or so I thought) stated that the average spectator is NOT a HORSEMAN/woman. They go to Celebration to enjoy the the activites and party. They are not familar with horse shoes…if they saw those big ones I have heard them joke…that reminds them of their mothers high heels. They do not understand the soring issue.

I do not own TWH’s. I don’t show them. I am vocal however I am not going to join any committees for the breed. THAT is for breeder owners of the Walking horses to do.

I am happy for you that you will be able to work hard for your breed in your area.

I am sure I do not have to ask you what you have done. I am sure it is awesome.

Here is an interesting point. Had a call from a lady who rides BL. She is going to take the Walking Way as she wants to learn a lot more. She asked me if I had many calls from the flat shod plantation owners. She was not surprised when i stated nada, nope, not even one question. Unkindly (I am sure) she stated the “natural” plantation group tend to be cheap when it comes to parting with their money and yet loud when it comes to their vocal chords.

I asked her how she was able to support soring. She honestly stated it has taken her some time to truly understand the whole issue. THAT is why she will no longer show her BL contestant and is going to make a switch. Her trainer told her most of the “natural” plantation hroses are also sored or pressure shod IF they are going to be competative in the big circuits. I am actually going to send the mags out of Montana (five minutes away)_ It will only cost her about 10$…