Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

[Fairfax]

I am also curious. This issue has been an issue, according to plantation owners forover 30 years. Neale Hubbard of Edmonton tried to have the law reversed outlawing BL in Canada and he was met with huge resistance from Helen Williamson of Westridge Farms (Go Shadow Go and Shaker’s Royal Heir) personally went to the government (at her own expense) with a group of TWH supporters to keep BL OUT…

In all fairness, it is easier to get rid of something before it has a major hold and the TWH is a marginalized breed in numbers…Canada and most of the U.S. just do not have the numbers. The Walking Horse News from Canada had many old time lines i.e. Go Boy’s Crown Royal by Merry Go Boy and out of a Midnight Sun mare.

Maybe some of those lines (if they were good) can still be located north of the border for reintroduction into your genetic pool.

I have heard and read that those who did protest were “given the word” i.e. possible threat so that explains some…but hey…the KKK was driven back underground and it is NOT considered to be acceptable to wear a sheet in public. This is probably as far as you will be able to get with the BL soring issue…it will go underground. However, that will not provide the glory nor the money for the trainers so over a time…it should take its toll.

I am AGAINST some of the posters on this forum who are trying to outlaw ALL training devices for any use. I believe I have CLEARLY stated that I do use rollers and chains for short periods of time however I want to again make it clear…I do NOT use any illegal weight . I weighed one set of rollers and they are just under 6 ounces and the chains are funny…just under 4 ounces… NO horse wears them in the stall and no horse wears them in a pasture.

[gogaitedgo]

How high is high enough for you? Bouncing off their own chin? Wrapping around and giving you a quick neck scratch?

[Fairfax]

I read from the TWH owners that there are lines that can truly move up and out and do it naturally.
]
My ASB’s break even without shoes. Weight on the back does have an impact and that is where training and resistence training comes into play.

[FortheTWH]

[QUOTE=hurleycane;6832333]
I think what should be considered is a limit on how a device is attached. From my point of view, anytime you need to put a hose clamp on a shoe or stack to hold it on - you have just gone too far.

But when I try to open this up for discussion - people skim over it.

It is worthy of discussion IMO. Along with no chains or stretchies in the show ring -I think the bands need to go. And that would be for all saddle seat divisions - not just the gaited only breed shows.

Thoughts?[/QUOTE]

I agree wholeheartedly. The thing is that a band is not necessary, not even in therapeutic circles. NWHA eliminated stacks, bands and action devices first, to keep the sore horse people out, second, because they have a no-tolerance policy BL people just weren’t showing up, and third, because if you have to have a band to hold the shoe on then either the shoe is too heavy or the hoof quality has something wrong with it that needs to be addressed.

There is no need for bands or pads on a horse, period. I hear the excuses of well we live in shoe-sucking mud. Well, I have a solution for you: go barefoot. Or keep your horses out of the mud. If you MUST have big shoes on for showing, then keep them in a barn where they won’t be walking in the mud.

With the picture I posted of the Arab’s foot, I can only imagine how tight that band had to be to cause that. Some people will say well, my trainer doesn’t tighten the bands that tight. But how do you know? Who knows what’s too tight for each individual horse? And if your horse has black feet, how are you even going to know if it’s bruised?

Even for therapeutic reasons, a pad is not much more than a 1/2" thick. No wedges, no bands. I do know of situations where horse’s hooves have completely come off and a hoof was “made” with wedges, bands and pads to support the foot while the new hoof grew in, but that is RARE. And if a horse’s hoof has come off and he has to wear something like that, then it’s just downright abusive to make him show. I can only imagine the pain a horse would be in.

I’m sure NO VET has EVER used giant stacks like the TWH wears as therapy to heal hoof issues.

Quite frankly, if your horse needs therapeutic shoes, then why is he even showing? Why are you putting him through that?

So the excuse that it’s therapeutic is just that: another excuse by the industry and by the high-stepping show community so they can keep what THEY want in the ring.

I’m okay with a compromise, like getting the TWH pad size down to something small that doesn’t put the horse up on his toes to show. They could be removed at the show to check for soring. But get rid of the bands and the action devices. They aren’t necessary.

[hurleycane]

It really is simple isn’t it?

But this thread sure shows there are those who just can not deal with the prospect of abiding to limits. And they only feel comfortable if every ‘what if’ is given an exception to the rule. Or they shirk the judgement that creating and abiding to rules requires and call for all rules to be banned.

[Fairfax]

I do not recall any post from anyone asking for limits to be banned.

I do recall individuals saying (me, for one) when Aarpaso stated she wanted ALL training devices even for farm training outlawed…that some of us said…that was going overboard and keep it in your own breed and do not incclude others.

You have many fanatics on your side.

As with most issues…just passing a bill and making it law does not guaranty anything will change until the laws are applied.

I am waiting to receive an extensive study conducted in Australia which shows that barefoot even for wild horses is not “the ideal” … pure and natural…that we are all told. I have only heard about it from the assistant to Cindy LaCroix who is a noted leg and hoof specialist in Scottsdale so will provide a link…the number of horses barefoot who develope laminitis is very high…according to this study.

25 years ago there was a product called Hoof Bond. A group of endurance riders (Beezle the 100 mile in one day Tevis Cup winner used it) and a group of TWH owners. Everyone touted this was natural…hardened the hoof but there was a side effect. It actually damaged the hoof so badly that they fell off. Lawsuits by the hundreds and of course the company filed for bankruptcy and that was the end of it. Barefoot is NOT the holy grail for horses that are in use.

[CFFarm]

[QUOTE=Fairfax;6837623]
I do not recall any post from anyone asking for limits to be banned.

I do recall individuals saying (me, for one) when Aarpaso stated she wanted ALL training devices even for farm training outlawed…that some of us said…that was going overboard and keep it in your own breed and do not incclude others.

You have many fanatics on your side.

As with most issues…just passing a bill and making it law does not guaranty anything will change until the laws are applied.

I am waiting to receive an extensive study conducted in Australia which shows that barefoot even for wild horses is not “the ideal” … pure and natural…that we are all told. I have only heard about it from the assistant to Cindy LaCroix who is a noted leg and hoof specialist in Scottsdale so will provide a link…the number of horses barefoot who develope laminitis is very high…according to this study.

25 years ago there was a product called Hoof Bond. A group of endurance riders (Beezle the 100 mile in one day Tevis Cup winner used it) and a group of TWH owners. Everyone touted this was natural…hardened the hoof but there was a side effect. It actually damaged the hoof so badly that they fell off. Lawsuits by the hundreds and of course the company filed for bankruptcy and that was the end of it. Barefoot is NOT the holy grail for horses that are in use.[/QUOTE]

Well of course barefoot is not the “ideal”. There is no ideal. Every horse is different.

That said, after having worked with both weighted horses and barefoot, I’ll take any problems associated with barefoot over weighted any day. JMHO

[FortheTWH]

[QUOTE=Fairfax;6837623]
As with most issues…just passing a bill and making it law does not guaranty anything will change until the laws are applied.

I am waiting to receive an extensive study conducted in Australia which shows that barefoot even for wild horses is not “the ideal” … pure and natural…that we are all told. I have only heard about it from the assistant to Cindy LaCroix who is a noted leg and hoof specialist in Scottsdale so will provide a link…the number of horses barefoot who develope laminitis is very high…according to this study.[/QUOTE]

As far as passing a bill, no, it won’t be a cure all. But it will make people think twice. And because the USDA will be at the big shows, it won’t make much sense to sore the horses before the shows since it will be much easier for them to get caught when the bill passes.

As far as barefoot is concerned, it CURED my mare’s laminitis–because the rotation of her coffin bone wasn’t very bad, it actually rotated back into place. It cracks me up that a study is being done to disprove barefoot when there are already tons of studies out there proving that barefoot is better in most cases. See Pete Ramey, Jamie Jackson, etc. Quite frankly, if barefoot caused laminitis, then all the horses that go barefoot in the Tevis should be dead lame.

You should also probably contact Stefan and Shannon Peters when that study comes out, because they’re going completely barefoot with lots of their horse (see last month’s Dressage Today).

Now Natural Balance trimming by Dr. Strausser and Ovnicek–that has proven to cause laminitis and problems in horses because it’s chopping off the toe and assuming all horses live like wild horses, when they don’t. I have seen NB mess up a horse’s gait in no time.

[Renae]

Interesting article with links to studies for those who don’t believe that action devices and in this case weighted boots can have a positive influence on a horse’s training and way of going: http://www.thehorse.com/(F(UlPkxc0TT5b3jkJNRcUp5pFksiK-lYbuMPkQ6lL3xSQW53RJuMad0zismgCNwLltZKrGCX6tE7g8a82fZd9DJePQ6e3pR6RBhHoHxK6F5UpZCbK4WdYfq6lbahjh7pU2UBWDg0DG5Bld7htak1XDhHBEC9vXOGZqgWDJGCdEG377DjmF1lgv1gqH79eAwFyZYEqsug2))/articles/28169/leg-weights-help-rehabilitate-hind-limb-gait-issues

When horses were studied wearing a lightweight chain on their hind pastern:

Motion analysis showed that when the horses were wearing the bracelets the height of the hind hoof during the swing phase (i.e., when the foot is off the ground) increased as much as threefold at a trot due to increased flexion primarily at the stifle and hock joints.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20486979

The effects of tactile stimulation of the hind pasterns on joint motion and muscle activation may be used in physiotherapy and rehabilitation to restore or increase flexion of the hindlimb joints with the exception of the hip joint. The ability to stimulate concentric activity of the tarsal musculature may have therapeutic applications in conditions such as toe dragging.

In this study horses wore 24 oz. ankle weights on their hind pasterns. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21592217

The addition of weight to the hind pasterns may have therapeutic applications in activating and strengthening the hindlimb musculature. This is particularly relevant in the hip region, which appears more sensitive and responsive to the effect of weights than to tactile stimulation alone.

And finally they compared 4 different types of action devices and weighted boots on horse’s hind legs http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22023127

The type and weight of foot stimulators affected the magnitude of the kinematic and kinetic responses and the joints affected. These findings suggest that different types of foot stimulators are appropriate for rehabilitation of specific hind limb gait deficits, such as toe dragging and a short stride.

I think these types of studies show that those of you who think that action devices used in training have no long term benefit and must be used as part of the system of soring are incorrect. Action devices can be used in a humane, physical therapy or exercise type manner to develop the muscles and range of motion in joints for a horse to do certain types of work.

As far as legislating shoeing practices in the trotting horse saddle seat show world, where soring is NOT an issue or problem I think it is totally uncalled for. People have been showing Saddlebreds since 1816, fears or our practices devolving to the brutality of what Walking Horse trainers started doing in the 1950s are unfounded. We already have rules barring pads and hoof bands from and entire division of our shows, and in other places in our rule book you will find rules such as, “Laboring action due to excessive weight of shoes or length of foot is penalized.” And frankly all this noise coming from people who have little to not involvement in this area of the horse world makes as much sense as me showing up at Rolex and telling the eventing people which cross country jumps they can not jump because I think they are too dangerous! I do not have sufficient knowledge to judge that, and I have no vested interest in the outcome of my judgements.

[sunridge1]

So I’m curious for those that like/want/employ these weighted shoeing practices on their subsequent breeds. What would happen if they were all banned tomorrow? This is an honest question.

I would think it would cheaper and easier to maintain any horse. The only folks that would be on the losing end of the hypothetical scenario would be farriers.

[Guilherme]

Renae, what happened when they took them off?

G.

[Renae]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;6838449]
Renae, what happened when they took them off?

G.[/QUOTE]

Did you even read the studies? The effects restore, increase, improve, says it right there in scientifically conducted studies.

What happens when you stop lifting a weight or doing an exagerated aerobic movement? You are stronger and or more flexible. And when you do those aerobic movement while holding a hand weight or wearing and ankle weight even more so. It’s pretty basic G, that is the basics of exercise. I can’t believe that you don’t understand that, so I must think that you refuse to accept the truth. Can a horse jump Grand Prix size jumps it’s first time over fences? No, but with conditioning a horse with talent can work its way up to it. The same applies to maximizing a horse’s ability to trot high. I’m through discussing this topic with you because you are simply being pigheaded.

[sunridge1]

What about my question? What would be the fallout if it were banned?

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=Renae;6838465]
Did you even read the studies? The effects restore, increase, improve, says it right there in scientifically conducted studies.

What happens when you stop lifting a weight or doing an exagerated aerobic movement? You are stronger and or more flexible. And when you do those aerobic movement while holding a hand weight or wearing and ankle weight even more so. It’s pretty basic G, that is the basics of exercise. I can’t believe that you don’t understand that, so I must think that you refuse to accept the truth. Can a horse jump Grand Prix size jumps it’s first time over fences? No, but with conditioning a horse with talent can work its way up to it. The same applies to maximizing a horse’s ability to trot high. I’m through discussing this topic with you because you are simply being pigheaded.[/QUOTE]

I read the study summaries I do not have access to PubMed. Each was dedicated to hind end issues. The discussion on “action devices” is focused on front end issues. From the get-go we’re dealing in apples and oranges.

From the studies it was not the weight of the device that caused the change it was the tactile stimulation. This altered the way of going from an abnormal movement to a more normal movement.

It is disingenuous, at the minimum, to claim that these studies are a “clean bill of health” for devices used to stimulate hyper-movement at the front end.

Last, and far from least, the studies don’t address movement after the device was removed.

So these are interesting if you have hind end, therapeutic movement issues. They are irrelevant to the discussion of front end movement alteration and exaggeration.

G.

[Fairfax]

Resistance training in horses does increase action. I first learned about using manure/shavings/straw as cavaletti’s from a hackney breeder. His Hacks had amazing action, for which they were bred, however they also like to improve the muscle tone by working them over the mounds. As the muscles tightened they used rollers/chains DURING TRAINING in the riding ring.

Studies are a funny thing. If they do not prove what a person wants…they are discounted despite the peer reviews and checks and balances.

excellent information Renae.

Although muscles and forms obviously change from rear to front, the principle stays the same with resistence. One thing that has started to come under study is the type of muscle. Flat, laying ON the bone and round…corded which “appears” to be tighter. The University of Saskatoon started a study several years ago in dogs and moved it into equines. The corded muscle tended towards a tightness (which also made it prone to injury) however it gave a higher “up” motion whereas the flat muscles tended to allow for extension without injury. I will contact them and see if I can get a copy or have something to print, I remember a lot of it was the set of the neck into the shoulder…the muscles running down the shoulder line…the length of the humerus AND important…that type of muscle over the humerus. Sport horses would want a flatter muscle whereas 3G would want corded…

[WalkInTheWoods]

Ive been very busy lately gentling a new equine that joined the family. The thread has wandered on and off track but the issue of BL is alive and well. Canada sees the problem with BL and does not allow it. AAEP, AVMA ets yadda yadda get it. Some states no longer allow and several venues are dropping it. It is just a waiting game now.

[hurleycane]

Good links Renae.

I only knew of one saddlebred that went totally flat without her action device. Chains-on, she would bend her knee “a little”. CHains-off, she was a daisy cutter. No amount of “front end” work changed her.

[gogaitedgo]

[QUOTE=Renae;6838465]
Did you even read the studies? The effects restore, increase, improve, says it right there in scientifically conducted studies.

What happens when you stop lifting a weight or doing an exagerated aerobic movement? You are stronger and or more flexible. And when you do those aerobic movement while holding a hand weight or wearing and ankle weight even more so. It’s pretty basic G, that is the basics of exercise. I can’t believe that you don’t understand that, so I must think that you refuse to accept the truth. Can a horse jump Grand Prix size jumps it’s first time over fences? No, but with conditioning a horse with talent can work its way up to it. The same applies to maximizing a horse’s ability to trot high. I’m through discussing this topic with you because you are simply being pigheaded.[/QUOTE]

What happens when you stop “lifting weights?” You do not retain any “benefits.”

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=gogaitedgo;6839723]
What happens when you stop “lifting weights?” You do not retain any “benefits.”[/QUOTE]

Not completely true. You “detrain” but that happens over time.

How long does it take the horse to “detrain?” An unanswered question.

G.

[FortheTWH]

[QUOTE=sunridge1;6838393]
So I’m curious for those that like/want/employ these weighted shoeing practices on their subsequent breeds. What would happen if they were all banned tomorrow? This is an honest question.

I would think it would cheaper and easier to maintain any horse. The only folks that would be on the losing end of the hypothetical scenario would be farriers.[/QUOTE]

Well, as far as the TWH is concerned, I would imagine that the first reaction would be that that is the end of the breed as they know it. The TWH industry is already saying the breed will go extinct if the BL goes away. I find that hilarious, since I’m pretty sure that the barefoot and flatshod champions of the breed, stallions and mares, are not just going to go POOF into oblivion or suddenly go infertile if the weighted shoes/stacks/etc go away.

The next step would be a “recession” of sorts. Shows would cut back, money would cut back, etc. For a few years there will not big any big shows on the scene, and everyone’s going to sit around and try to figure out what to do. Of course, this won’t stop soring–people like Barney Davis (who sored FS horses) will continue doing it. But, having the VMOs use hoof testers would help eliminate that REALLY fast.

During this time, the trainers who are doing it right will just keep on keepin’ on. They will see an increase in the amount of horses in their barn. Maybe not much, but enough to make a difference. And they’ll be the ones actually winning at the shows, not the burners and cheaters. Honest, sound training will become MUCH closer to the norm rather than cheating.

Then in a few years the FS horse will become the breed standard instead of the high stepping, crippled looking horse. I do believe that the industry will continue to reward the horse that steps the highest because they’re truly morons who have no clue what a true FW/RW is supposed to look like. They’ll still use mechanics at home to train, just like the Saddle seat world does. But at least the horses won’t be sored. That to me is going to be the biggest part of this.

I don’t believe we’ll ever get rid of mechanical training. By that, I mean relying on bits, stretchies, bungies, action devices, tie-downs, bitting rigs, etc. to “train” a horse. I hate to say it, but there’s just too much money in it. No, I don’t agree with it, and I’m sick and tired of the horse world having become a world of cheaters, liars, and abusers. But it would be nice to see the TWH breed stop suffering as much as it does.