Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

[FortheTWH]

[QUOTE=Renae;6838465]
Did you even read the studies? The effects restore, increase, improve, says it right there in scientifically conducted studies.

What happens when you stop lifting a weight or doing an exagerated aerobic movement? You are stronger and or more flexible. And when you do those aerobic movement while holding a hand weight or wearing and ankle weight even more so. It’s pretty basic G, that is the basics of exercise. I can’t believe that you don’t understand that, so I must think that you refuse to accept the truth. Can a horse jump Grand Prix size jumps it’s first time over fences? No, but with conditioning a horse with talent can work its way up to it. The same applies to maximizing a horse’s ability to trot high. I’m through discussing this topic with you because you are simply being pigheaded.[/QUOTE]

Renae, as Guilherme said, this was ONLY STUDYING HIND END MOVEMENT. Here are some studies that talk about adding weight to the front end and how using action devices do not make any difference in the front end OR can cause DAMAGE to the front end.

The Energetic and Kinematic Consequences of Weighting the Distal Limb.

See page 23 of this analysis, where it dermines that adding weight to the pasterns at anything under 10 ozes does not change the gait. If it does change the gait, it only does so at about 4%, which is INVISIBLE TO THE NAKED EYE. Gait Analysis: Opening Doors to Understanding the Gaited Horse.

The Pernicious Effects of Extreme Shoeing, Soring, and Riding on the Horse and His Feet

So hey, we can post studies too. But we can actually post ones that are pertinent to the horse’s front end rather than his hind end, which is where the heavy shoes and action devices go.

[Renae]

In the Saddlebred (and Hackney) world about half the time when we use action devices it is ON THE HIND END. We value hind end action, we use leather straps or chains behind when teaching a colt to rack, I’ve even had a trainer I worked under have me ride a horse with stretchers on behind because he interfered and he wanted the horse to learn to travel wider behind (and it worked). So when you Walking Horse people talk of banning action devices throughout the horse world, even where they are NOT used for soring, that is not right because you don’t even understand why trainers in other breeds do use them. Do whatever you want with the Walking Horse breed, but keep your noses out of the trotting horse world.

[hurleycane]

Mmmmm…

Now I do not mean to come across as a fence sitter on this. But if I do - so be it.

I seen no reason to try and counter Renae’s links to studies. I think and know saddlebreds are never intentionally hurt by any action device - including shoeing. They move exuberant, exaggerated and yet freely right left forward and back no matter the shoe.

Not so the encumbered stacked chained plantation shod foot dragging TWH.

Hugh difference between them.

So it really needs to be said that the other high stepping breeds are excluded from HPA6388 for more than just political reasons. And in my humble limited opinion it is because of 1) the horses trot sound. 2) they have never been subjected to soring.

And I do believe and have seen for myself the self limiting forces at work there that Renae pointed out - and that is the judging.

SO I think her influence on this thread should be welcomed and her thought out posts should be given heed.

And it is ONLY TWH padded folks that insist all high stepping breeds are sored. They are not.

ANd not all shoeing is the same. Neither are all barefoot trims the same.

SO I hope she stays in this discussion.

Her influence is appreciated by me for sure.

[hurleycane]

Ditto the hind action. Lordy yes!

[hurleycane]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;6838449]
Renae, what happened when they took them off?

G.[/QUOTE]

I think your question is did the device teach the horse anything?

The answer would be no.

But to the trainer the question is whether the device enhanced the range of motion.

The answer would be yes. And it was not harmful. And it made room for more potential ROM. This potential can be tapped on a horse in a performance for sure.

JMO

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=Renae;6840077]
In the Saddlebred (and Hackney) world about half the time when we use action devices it is ON THE HIND END. We value hind end action, we use leather straps or chains behind when teaching a colt to rack, I’ve even had a trainer I worked under have me ride a horse with stretchers on behind because he interfered and he wanted the horse to learn to travel wider behind (and it worked). So when you Walking Horse people talk of banning action devices throughout the horse world, even where they are NOT used for soring, that is not right because you don’t even understand why trainers in other breeds do use them. Do whatever you want with the Walking Horse breed, but keep your noses out of the trotting horse world.[/QUOTE]

You’ve actually answered none of the questions. Your links answered none of the questions. Your rants (and those of Fairfax) answered none of the questions. So they still stand.

G.

[FortheTWH]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;6840189]
You’ve actually answered none of the questions. Your links answered none of the questions. Your rants (and those of Fairfax) answered none of the questions. So they still stand.

G.[/QUOTE]

I agree. And I thought this thread was about TWHs, not about ASBs.

[FortheTWH]

[QUOTE=Renae;6840077]
In the Saddlebred (and Hackney) world about half the time when we use action devices it is ON THE HIND END. We value hind end action, we use leather straps or chains behind when teaching a colt to rack, I’ve even had a trainer I worked under have me ride a horse with stretchers on behind because he interfered and he wanted the horse to learn to travel wider behind (and it worked). So when you Walking Horse people talk of banning action devices throughout the horse world, even where they are NOT used for soring, that is not right because you don’t even understand why trainers in other breeds do use them. Do whatever you want with the Walking Horse breed, but keep your noses out of the trotting horse world.[/QUOTE]

Well, if you actually read the amendment, it specifically states that pads, chains, bands, and action devices will be banned for the TENNESSEE WALKING HORSES, RACKING HORSES, and SPOTTED SADDLE HORSES. So your precious mechanical ways of training will stay.

I think you’re the one who stuck your nose in here. I have never said anything about ASBs. I thought this thread was about TWHs, which is I was talking about.

And yes, I do understand how it all works. And quite frankly, I don’t care. It is ridiculous that in this day and age, when there is so much information out there about how to train a horse up to his full potential without using mechanics that mechanics are still used. The Saddle Seat horses have no true impulsion behind, and travel in an upside down frame–it’s all faked and forced. It’s sad when horse “trainers” have actually become mechanics–how much can we manipulate the horse to get what we think looks purty?

[hurleycane]

Andrea - Renae and her folks have plenty good reason to participate on this thread. HR6388 as written does not seek to impact those breeds that work under the guidelines of USEF with action devices. USEF guidelines are acceptable to the Vet associations that support this bill.

Who better to have included in this discussion than her?

I think you are in error with your reasoning on this.

Narrowing who discusses this is not in the interest of the TWH at all.

[FortheTWH]

[QUOTE=hurleycane;6841503]
Andrea - Renae and her folks have plenty good reason to participate on this thread. HR6388 as written does not seek to impact those breeds that work under the guidelines of USEF with action devices. USEF guidelines are acceptable to the Vet associations that support this bill.

Who better to have included in this discussion than her?

I think you are in error with your reasoning on this.

Narrowing who discusses this is not in the interest of the TWH at all.[/QUOTE]

I don’t understand, then. It just seemed a bit ridiculous to be talking about how to use mechanics for training on ASBs when the title of the thread is “Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue.” The ASB community is not in danger of losing their mechanical means of training, so I don’t see where it’s relevant. ASBs are not trained the same way TWHs are because first, they don’t sore their horses, and second, they are trotting or racking and not performing a lateral gait, so their training methods don’t work on TWHs.

Don’t get me wrong–there are a lot of people in the ASB world who have also been involved in the TWH industry. I would hope they would actually stand up and help us rather than hinder with this problem by condoning the actions of the TWH industry. Unfortunately I find more often than not that ASB folks actually are condoning the abuse by defending pads, chains, and bands which are not necessary for training in general. As a reminder, HR 6388 DOES NOT apply to them. We need them to help us get this passed–they know as well as we do that stacks, chains, bands, wedges, and heavy shoes are used to sore horses in the TWH industry, and that’s why they are exempt from the amendment–they DON’T break the federal law that is the HPA.

Overall, I don’t poke my nose in the ASB folks’ business. I don’t go on ASB threads and talk about how TWHs are trained. But it’s okay for them to come on here and post their studies and the like on a thread that’s supposed to be about the TWH? Yet when I counter and talk about studies done specifically about the TWH and point out that Renae’s studies are on the HIND LIMBS rather than the FRONT LIMBS that are the issue in the TWH industry, I get reprimanded? I don’t get it.

[Renae]

[QUOTE=FortheTWH;6843795]
I don’t understand, then. It just seemed a bit ridiculous to be talking about how to use mechanics for training on ASBs when the title of the thread is “Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue.” The ASB community is not in danger of losing their mechanical means of training, so I don’t see where it’s relevant. ASBs are not trained the same way TWHs are because first, they don’t sore their horses, and second, they are trotting or racking and not performing a lateral gait, so their training methods don’t work on TWHs.

Don’t get me wrong–there are a lot of people in the ASB world who have also been involved in the TWH industry. I would hope they would actually stand up and help us rather than hinder with this problem by condoning the actions of the TWH industry. Unfortunately I find more often than not that ASB folks actually are condoning the abuse by defending pads, chains, and bands which are not necessary for training in general. As a reminder, HR 6388 DOES NOT apply to them. We need them to help us get this passed–they know as well as we do that stacks, chains, bands, wedges, and heavy shoes are used to sore horses in the TWH industry, and that’s why they are exempt from the amendment–they DON’T break the federal law that is the HPA.

Overall, I don’t poke my nose in the ASB folks’ business. I don’t go on ASB threads and talk about how TWHs are trained. But it’s okay for them to come on here and post their studies and the like on a thread that’s supposed to be about the TWH? Yet when I counter and talk about studies done specifically about the TWH and point out that Renae’s studies are on the HIND LIMBS rather than the FRONT LIMBS that are the issue in the TWH industry, I get reprimanded? I don’t get it.[/QUOTE]

I had not posted on this thread for a long time because it had gotten back on track to being a thread about Walking Horses. But then some posts creeped back in from posters who either can not or refuse to accept what you just stated above. luvmytbs’ post #3674 was in very poor taste, CFFarm’s post #3743 was the tipping point, micorbovine’s post #3757 was also off topic, and Guilherme and gogaitedgo, and yes hurleycane you also in a few posts, are also ones straying off topic by taking this “fight” out of the Walking Horse world and implying that the training and shoeing practices of trotting horses should also be under fire. As I said in post #3744 if this thread stays on topic I will stay out of it.

[hurleycane]

Yes I think it is important for the high stepping crowd to be a part of this discussion. I think if they are heard out they can indeed show why and how the TWH went so wrong. Remember these breed shows and showing practices are found to be in a manner acceptable to the AAEP, AVMA and USEF.

Every time I compare the explanations of a stacker to the explanations of an ASB on the mechanics of the modified shoe - the differences between them are incredible. One completely hampers the horse’s natural movement - the other does not.

They should be heard. And not just in defense - but in discussion.

I still feel HR6388 is the only way to go for the TWH Racking SSH breeds simply because they show without trot. If we could just get a pace-out or trot-out into the DQP (pdq) - we would really rout out the excess shoe and soring and action device from the soft gaited breeds.

[FortheTWH]

[QUOTE=hurleycane;6843878]
Yes I think it is important for the high stepping crowd to be a part of this discussion. I think if they are heard out they can indeed show why and how the TWH went so wrong. Remember these breed shows and showing practices are found to be in a manner acceptable to the AAEP, AVMA and USEF.

Every time I compare the explanations of a stacker to the explanations of an ASB on the mechanics of the modified shoe - the differences between them are incredible. One completely hampers the horse’s natural movement - the other does not.

They should be heard. And not just in defense - but in discussion.

I still feel HR6388 is the only way to go for the TWH Racking SSH breeds simply because they show without trot. If we could just get a pace-out or trot-out into the DQP (pdq) - we would really rout out the excess shoe and soring and action device from the soft gaited breeds.[/QUOTE]

Discussion is fine, but completely hijacking the thread to talk about their training methods is not. Like I said, I don’t go on ASB threads to talk about how to train TWHs. I always find that ASB people have to come onto TWH threads to defend their practices. I’m not sure why…perhaps out of guilt…? Either way, it becomes a nuisance and takes the focus away from what we need to do: help end soring of the TWHs, Racking Horses, and SSHs.

And quite frankly, it’s perfectly clear where the TWH industry went wrong. They continued to allow people to sore their horses even when it became illegal, even praising and rewarding them. And the sorest horse is always the one that wins, period. We don’t need the ASB people’s input to tell us that.

[FortheTWH]

[QUOTE=Renae;6843820]
I had not posted on this thread for a long time because it had gotten back on track to being a thread about Walking Horses. But then some posts creeped back in from posters who either can not or refuse to accept what you just stated above. luvmytbs’ post #3674 was in very poor taste, CFFarm’s post #3743 was the tipping point, micorbovine’s post #3757 was also off topic, and Guilherme and gogaitedgo, and yes hurleycane you also in a few posts, are also ones straying off topic by taking this “fight” out of the Walking Horse world and implying that the training and shoeing practices of trotting horses should also be under fire. As I said in post #3744 if this thread stays on topic I will stay out of it.[/QUOTE]

Those are very good points, Renae–I didn’t think about that. Thanks for pointing that out. I don’t give a rat’s rear end what Saddle seat people do to their horses right now. Do I like Saddle seat? Nope, not at all. But that’s an opinion that doesn’t need to be discussed here. All I want to see is an end to soring and the items they use to sore horses: stacks, chains, action devices, bands, etc. I agree with HR 6388 in that it should be breed specific.

[hurleycane]

OK. No discussion of high stepping horses and training methods etc.

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=hurleycane;6846437]
OK. No discussion of high stepping horses and training methods etc.[/QUOTE]

The difficulty with this is that it puts “soring” in a vacuum. Nobody, not even Jackie, sores up a horse for no reason. These people are not sadists who just enjoy inflicting pain. It’s done to attain a very specific result. If you ignore that result, and the motivation to achieve it, you will at best have done half the job.

So discussion of the 5Ws of soring (and its companion issues) is most certainly ON TOPIC.

G.

[gogaitedgo]

“These people are not sadists who just enjoy inflicting pain.”

Sure they are. The fact that they make money doing what they love is a bonus. I guarantee you if soring and padded horse shows ended right this minute, these cretins would still abuse animals and most likely their spouses and kids.

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=gogaitedgo;6848585]
“These people are not sadists who just enjoy inflicting pain.”

Sure they are. The fact that they make money doing what they love is a bonus. I guarantee you if soring and padded horse shows ended right this minute, these cretins would still abuse animals and most likely their spouses and kids.[/QUOTE]

How many “sore lick” owners do you know, personally? Do you live amongst them that you are knowledgeable? Are you a trained DQP cum mental health professional/social worker that you can make, and defend, your statements?

This sort of thinking is why the “sound horse people” have been unsuccessful for 50+ years.

You clearly don’t understand the problem; that being the case I doubt you’ll ever craft a solution.

G.

[gogaitedgo]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;6848643]
How many “sore lick” owners do you know, personally? Do you live amongst them that you are knowledgeable? Are you a trained DQP cum mental health professional/social worker that you can make, and defend, your statements?

This sort of thinking is why the “sound horse people” have been unsuccessful for 50+ years.

You clearly don’t understand the problem; that being the case I doubt you’ll ever craft a solution.

G.[/QUOTE]

How hard is it to recognize evil? How many times does it have to be proven that animal abusers also abuse people? The solution is simple. It’s already illegal. It’s easy to identify. Prosecute and fine them till they don’t have a pot to piss in. Goes without saying no stack classes, ever again.

[hurleycane]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;6846618]
The difficulty with this is that it puts “soring” in a vacuum. Nobody, not even Jackie, sores up a horse for no reason. These people are not sadists who just enjoy inflicting pain. It’s done to attain a very specific result. If you ignore that result, and the motivation to achieve it, you will at best have done half the job.

So discussion of the 5Ws of soring (and its companion issues) is most certainly ON TOPIC.

G.[/QUOTE]

I set them up - you hit them outa the park! You of course are right. Very right. And your posts on the topic have been very enlightening. How anyone could miss your important point here is beyond me.

I think it is way out of line to infer that anyone should not have a voice here. Specially an ASB - You do know many of the Racking Horses are ASB’s? And I sure do not get where Renae’s posts are objectionable. She makes sense and gave important information.

Reminds me of some of the rukus in the Rocky Mtn horse world. They had a squabble between those that wanted to promote only short square horses that did what I call a ‘table rack’ and those that wanted to promote a longer leaner flashy high stepping horse. Of course there were extremes in each group - like those that cranked horses and bent a short horse in half to get a high headed/high stepping ‘look’ - to those that simply did not recognize a bent knee could be quite natural in a rack - specially at speed.

But they continue at each other with their blinkers on - missing the big picture. And the big picture is that there is room for both horses in the breed.

As far as mechanical training - it really has a place for discussion here. It is not breed specific. No matter the author - it is not inherently cruel. And though HR6388 may seek to stop use of action devices in the show ring and exhibitions - they do not make them illegal to use.

I am sure before this bill gets passed the weighted shoe is going to be worked into the equation. NWHA has weighed in on this and seeks to include more USEF type allowances as is afforded the other high stepping breeds.

SO there you go. It really is on topic.

Barefoot only is just not going to happen.