This post is for thousands who have taken up the cause of the TWH, I found this video that I think will be very very helpful and useful in understand the different shoes within the breed.
I think is was a good video well done by Bob Roach differentiating from the Stamped Keg Shoe to the Big Lick Padded horse ~~~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hWJisXtyeL4#!
[QUOTE=FortheTWH;6874658]
Just because a horse goes romping for a few minutes in the field with his head up and his back inverted doesn’t mean he needs to be jacked up for longer than that just for the show ring, or that he needs to live in a bitting rig in a stall or have his tail braced. Horses are lazy animals by nature–they don’t run around with their heads up 24/7.
I would say that ALL of the horses I know–yes, even ASBs–prefer to keep their head at wither level or lower when eating, sleeping, dozing, and just all around hanging out and being lazy like horses do. Why not encourage a calm, quiet, easy-going horse by keeping him long and low rather than jack him up and force him to be in the fright position all the time?
Well, I’m sure we all know the true answer to that.[/QUOTE]
See where you lose perspective? You call it a fright position. It is also a play position. And for the record - a roundy round does not last near as long as my ole boys play - of their own accord mind you.
Like my mix breed boxer type dog - who is exuberant as all get out - a well fed and bred and sound entertained horse loves to move, move out, use their bodies and play.
Cause it feels good to them.
Not cause they are scared.
To all the et all pointers - I just want to say I really do love reading Nate’s perspective and I would love reading yours if you would quit trying to make people chose one over the other. There is plenty room for independent thinking even on this topic.
And G - what you pointed out about the show ring not really holding much weight in the big scheme of things holds true for any human travesty. Look at any plea for help to feed the children, home the homeless and such. No doubt it is because harm, evil, loss and injustice plays out over and over and has been a constant throughout all time.
WHen has there not been conflict and strife? It is a part of life. All we have ever been able to do is chose which side we are going to represent.
[QUOTE=The Preacher;6874734]
However, my side of the coin says this; we allow the people a chance for redemption, a new way of treating horses, a different attitude towards ex-lickers, now most of my lickers friends tell me that even though they have ceased and desisted they still like the way a PH moves ~~~ and its okay to have feelings towards something that has changed ~~~
There were allot of people who obeyed the laws when prohibition came in, but they would tell ya that they still loved to drink, but would not because the laws had changed.
This is how I feel about these people, yeah, some are real hard core, I’ve had many people point their fingers right at me and tell me in person or with the written word that “I am the one that destroyed this breed!”
I say no, not the breed, a division, yes![/QUOTE]
No kidding, Nate–I’ve been accused of destroying the breed too. Sadly they don’t like it when they’re challenged. They also won’t take responsibility for their own actions. THEY have destroyed it by not listening to the hundreds of people who have told them time and time again that they are making these mistakes. It’s just good that we now have their skeletons out of the closet and they will fail because of it.
I have TONS of respect for anyone who used to sore and then says I can’t do this anymore. Dr. Pam Reband is one of my heroes because not only did she stop soring, she also stood up against it in a time when you just DID NOT SAY A WORD (1995). She started the modern sound movement, IMHO.
I would be more than happy to forgive TWHBEA, the sore HIOs, and anyone in general if they stood up and said yes, we were wrong, we were supporting the sore horse. We are sorry and we’re going to stop it now. It would be a wonderful day indeed if they would just STOP.
[QUOTE=hurleycane;6874774]
See where you lose perspective? You call it a fright position. It is also a play position. And for the record - a roundy round does not last near as long as my ole boys play - of their own accord mind you.
Like my mix breed boxer type dog - who is exuberant as all get out - a well fed and bred and sound entertained horse loves to move, move out, use their bodies and play.
Cause it feels good to them.
Not cause they are scared.[/QUOTE]
Actually, my horses were playing today, and they were ducking their heads and chasing after each other with heads long and low. Our older gelding and our youngest gelding will try to grab each others’ legs to “knock each other down,” like stallions in the wild. They’ll jerk their heads up to bite at each others faces, then duck down and buck and run with their heads level or just above their withers.
But you’ve missed the point, of course. Even if they’re just playing, they’re STILL in the head up position for only a little while. I think pretty much all horses that have their heads jacked up DO NOT prefer to go that way for a few hours a day or in the ring or to be jacked up in bitting rigs in their stalls. Head up for a long period of time = chronic back, neck, jaw, poll pain. I’ve seen it in “used up” ASBs and TWHs. Back pain leads to fear and aggression. Again, this is all for the humans, not the horses. And if those who enjoy this look truly cared about the horses themselves like they say they do, they wouldn’t treat them like a machine.
Oh, but MY horses are okay! They’re not hurting at all! That’s because the owners choose not to see the truth. It’s why people continue to use drugs in equine competition, why the bits get harsher, why the training methods get more severe.
As someone said about the TWH industry: “If horses could scream, you’d never get away with this.” This is true of ALL disciplines that encourage, promote, and defend a painful frame and methods of training of the horse in rail classes.
[QUOTE=FortheTWH;6876215]
Actually, my horses were playing today, and they were ducking their heads and chasing after each other with heads long and low. Our older gelding and our youngest gelding will try to grab each others’ legs to “knock each other down,” like stallions in the wild. They’ll jerk their heads up to bite at each others faces, then duck down and buck and run with their heads level or just above their withers.
But you’ve missed the point, of course. Even if they’re just playing, they’re STILL in the head up position for only a little while. I think pretty much all horses that have their heads jacked up DO NOT prefer to go that way for a few hours a day or in the ring or to be jacked up in bitting rigs in their stalls. Head up for a long period of time = chronic back, neck, jaw, poll pain. I’ve seen it in “used up” ASBs and TWHs. Back pain leads to fear and aggression. Again, this is all for the humans, not the horses. And if those who enjoy this look truly cared about the horses themselves like they say they do, they wouldn’t treat them like a machine.
Oh, but MY horses are okay! They’re not hurting at all! That’s because the owners choose not to see the truth. It’s why people continue to use drugs in equine competition, why the bits get harsher, why the training methods get more severe.
As someone said about the TWH industry: “If horses could scream, you’d never get away with this.” This is true of ALL disciplines that encourage, promote, and defend a painful frame and methods of training of the horse in rail classes.[/QUOTE]
It has been said that owners resemble their pets.
I just wonder…do you own pitbulls?
[QUOTE=FortheTWH;6843795]
I don’t understand, then. It just seemed a bit ridiculous to be talking about how to use mechanics for training on ASBs when the title of the thread is “Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue.”
Overall, I don’t poke my nose in the ASB folks’ business. I don’t go on ASB threads and talk about how TWHs are trained.[/QUOTE]
Read your own words, FortheTWH. If you want to start a thread to talk about Saddlebred training please start a new one.
Again - as was suggested - their are pointers here who refuse to really go check it out.
GA-RAN-DAM-TEE-YA - no one is jacking up a saddlebred as you stated AND having success!!!
There are stupid people on the wrong track in any walk of life trying to immitate stuff - and it seems you have run into every single idiot on earth… And if so, that makes you pretty unlucky.
But I think the reality is your statements show you do not have a.n.y. real experience with saddlebreds and you are just making suppositions.
Take a walk in the real world and you just might find a reality that causes you to think and re-think.
Not just imagine.
And I want to add that making stuff up is the sort of stuff that professional horsemen will not likely do. This is why I have stated all along professional horsemen is what it will take to get meaningful change for the TWH. The shit that is happening to this breed needs no exaggeration to turn a head and get the deserved condemnation that real horse folks would give it.
And who determines who is real or not real horseman? Well, I would say the push for HR6388 only took on a potential legitimacy when the Vet associations pointed to adoption of rules such as set out by USEF as being the only real solution.
BTW - I did get a response from NWHA on the Calsonic Arena questions. They did say they will show under their own HIO. They are in no way associating themselves with the SHOW HIO. I brought up my concern that they are aligning to avoid the eminent pressure of HR6388 (NWHA does use heavy shoes for “action”) and that they may lose sight of obtaining legitimacy for the TWH by forfeiting the potential to gain USEF full acceptance.
IMO association with USEF is the only way to get the TWH the legitimacy and protection as a breed that it deserves.
NWHA has the potential to do that - and I hope they do not lose sight of it.
[QUOTE=hurleycane;6876354]
Again - as was suggested - their are pointers here who refuse to really go check it out.
GA-RAN-DAM-TEE-YA - no one is jacking up a saddlebred as you stated AND having success!!!
There are stupid people on the wrong track in any walk of life trying to immitate stuff - and it seems you have run into every single idiot on earth… And if so, that makes you pretty unlucky.
But I think the reality is your statements show you do not have a.n.y. real experience with saddlebreds and you are just making suppositions.
Take a walk in the real world and you just might find a reality that causes you to think and re-think.
Not just imagine.[/QUOTE]
Well in her defense. Yes they do. I’ve seen it myself as a groom and as an owner. And I’ve also seen what it does in the long run. Retraining and conditioning to be a normal horse is a tough row to hoe. Breed showing in GENERAL ( not everyone but enough) do not wear halos and most of those that are angels simply say lalalalala I can’t hear you. because it would ruin their ideals or their reputation. You don’t want to be the one who speaks against the machine, believe me.
And then, of course, there is this which I just heard from a reliable source: The new Performance Show Horse Group Association says that anyone who shows horses with any organization other than the PSHA will not be able to show at a PSHA show for 12 months after they show somewhere else. That would eliminate anyone who shows NWHA, for example. So, if you don’t sign on with the new consolidated group, they will keep you out of the Celebration. And if the TWHBEA Futurity decided to use that new consolidated HIO/PSHA, you couldn’t show at the Futurity if you had shown your horse with some other organization.
Chew on this FOLKS,Howard’s control of the TWH
This “roundy round show is bad” and all who do it are awful is an exaggeration that detracts from the problem as well as the solution. And it gives a complete loss of credibility for the cause of the TWH. It thwarts the potential for anyone who knows anything about ASB’s and the like to even consider taking up HR6388 as a potential solution for the TWH.
And mind you in my opinion, there is a good potential REAL solution for the TWH with HR6388 and USEF oversight.
SO it is not possible for those who know different to let statements like “hours on end” stand as anything but an exaggeration. That they are all “frightened” is also an exaggeration. A complete exaggeration. Also implying that those who do not agree have a “not my horse” mind set makes the exaggeration even worse.
Bunch of pointers staring at rustling leaves and trying to draw a pack is all I see with posts like that.
HAs Andrea ever been in any of these barns???
I think not.
Cause riding an “up” horse is not all bad for the horse. However - riding a horse who is forced to carry a low set head on high indeed is bad. Most Saddlebreds are bred for high head carriage. Just like the Fresions who stared with curiosity at my two boys in the paddock next to them. They were not frightened - just curious. And you bet their heads were up high for a goooooood long while.
Just stop and ponder this - agony and ecstasy share the same grimace - looking at the whole picture is what shows the difference. I do not see any usefulness at all with this myopic presentation and poking at the shown horse.
And this is why I like having Renae in the conversation - I mean HR6388 is about action devices. I am sure she could straighten up some of the misconceptions and exaggerations that are put forth here. And I fully believe in the long run we will all find a better balance arises from examining everyone’s position and not sticking to some “show is bad” mantra or making these exaggerated statements.
BTW the one thing I am sticking with is that the bands on shoes need to go. That will really make a difference in the big scheme of things.
OH - And before I forget - Tom Bass - to my knowledge - started/developed/used the biting rig with his saddle horses. He is to my knowledge an undisputed American great horseman.
[QUOTE=aarpaso;6876579]
And then, of course, there is this which I just heard from a reliable source: The new Performance Show Horse Group Association says that anyone who shows horses with any organization other than the PSHA will not be able to show at a PSHA show for 12 months after they show somewhere else. That would eliminate anyone who shows NWHA, for example. So, if you don’t sign on with the new consolidated group, they will keep you out of the Celebration. And if the TWHBEA Futurity decided to use that new consolidated HIO/PSHA, you couldn’t show at the Futurity if you had shown your horse with some other organization.
Chew on this FOLKS,Howard’s control of the TWH[/QUOTE]
Some wicked connections you have aarpaso!
I’m trying to get my head around the alphabet soup of organizations and their overlap. Would anyone post an org chart or flow chart or even show overlapping squares so a non-TWH person such as myself has a glimmer of a chance of understanding?
From what I’ve gathered, the PSHA is trying the same maneuver that the FEI recently mandated. The latter is an organization that controls international competition at the highest levels with the agreement of the national organizations. They were concerned about riders/ horses qualifying for international level competitions in non-standardized competitions, thereby increasing their risk when they showed up to compete at the FEI level so they mandated all qualifying points had to be at FEI competitions. (There may have been some other considerations as well, but there are plenty of threads on that.) The FEI also said that any rider, horse or official that participated in a non-FEI competition would be prohibited from FEI competitions for 6 months following. That caused such a firestorm that clarifications were rapidly disseminated to indicate that any competition the national organization exempted from the ban would be allowed (although qualifying points wouldn’t accrue).
<sigh> It would be so nice if all the TWH people immediately went out and competed in some non-PSH(G)A show just to make them try to enforce such a foolish rule. And if there’s a lawyer in the house, are there any anti-trust/ restraint of trade issues with that?
I think PSHA is not yet formed or fully functioning. It is an attempt to get a separate stacked show organization/registry going. Whether it will skirt the HR6388 law is a good question right along with whether they can exclude exhibitors or horses that compete in other show organizations.
How on earth did FEI get away with excluding folks from participating in competing clubs/organizations? Yes - that is a good legal question.
Hurleycane, I am far from an expert on the FEI, but at its level, it is the only recognized organization (e.g. Olympics). And as I said there was such a kerfuffle that they “clarified” their initial comments to indicate that competitions recognized by the national governing organization wouldn’t result in a 6 month ban. Neither would schooling or low level shows. It has yet to be tested in the courts, but it may well be by some competing organization.
As to skirting HR6388, I think that might be difficult. If it was so easy to avoid a law by changing the name of something, marijuana could be sold legally under another name. 
The law IMHO has to prevent a specific set of activities (stacks, bands, soring) that could be perpetrated on any horse, not just a specific breed. Otherwise, those who practice such measures will only move on to another breed. This may not be how others see the issue, but it’s the only thing that makes sense to me.
[QUOTE=Fairfax;6876221]
It has been said that owners resemble their pets.
I just wonder…do you own pitbulls?[/QUOTE]
No, actually, I own collies, who care about other animals around them and are kind to them, listen and learn and are eager, and don’t growl and get nasty when someone tells them the truth.
But then again, all the pit bulls I know are kind, sweet, and very friendly dogs. They love their families and listen well to their masters. So if you’re implying that pit bulls are mean or nasty or WTF ever reference this is supposed to be, you are truly as ignorant as I figured you are.
[QUOTE=hurleycane;6876636]
HAs Andrea ever been in any of these barns???
I think not.[/QUOTE]
UMMMMM, YES, I have. I LIVE In Saddlebred country–I have been to many barns out here. The Saddlebred folks are the ones who run our local gaited horse shows. I saw horses standing in bitting rigs in stalls with no turnout. I saw horses being worked for hours on end with stretchies and blinders and all kinds of crap on them. I see older ASBs A LOT with lordosis so bad they should never be ridden again, yet fat Saddleseat ladies get on them in the adult Academy classes because they’re been there, done that horses. I have heard the firecrackers and fire extinguishers going off before the halter/model classes to hype the horses up.
If you’re talking about BL barns, I have certainly been inside the barns at our local show that used to have BL horses and seen grooms soring horses RIGHT BEFORE MY EYES. This was before I knew what soring was.
So yes, I KNOW WHAT GOES ON.
Next time, ASK me if I’ve been to these barns, okay?
I’ve discovered something very clear about this thread–MANY of you are very good at making assumptions. You guys are not helping us in any way, shape or form. Clearly I need to stick to areas where people are TRULY for the horse and not for themselves and picking fights.
Good bye.
P.S. I’m sure Nate will come back on soon enough and see I’m gone and take the opportunity to spread some lies about me. If you want to believe them, go ahead. Anyone who associates with that man will eventually learn the truth behind who he really is. I trusted him once–one of the biggest mistakes I ever made.
[QUOTE=FortheTWH;6879014]
P.S. I’m sure Nate will come back on soon enough and see I’m gone and take the opportunity to spread some lies about me. If you want to believe them, go ahead. Anyone who associates with that man will eventually learn the truth behind who he really is. I trusted him once–one of the biggest mistakes I ever made.[/QUOTE]
Actually not everyone on here worships NJ, and from what I can see the only time people have gotten harsh to you (besides NJ) is when you started bringing saddlebreds into it, if you would like to discuss them you could always start another thread.
Thanks for the info you shared here about the TWH
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