[QUOTE=aarpaso;6327809]
here is another view
get the name Marty Irby,any relation to Dr.Irby of Waterfall farms that used Jackie McConnell as a trainer.
FYI Marty Irby is pres of TWHBEA
every body at TWHBEA need to change.[/QUOTE]
Also related, I believe to long-time BL trainer Ty Irby.
[QUOTE=bludejavu;6327818]
Thanks GaitedGloryRider - I don’t know if I would call A Walk in the Woods a turd in a punch bowl, but you started off my Monday with a grin.
I have always felt that anyone who rides a saddle seat ridden breed has a vested interest in these kinds of topics. Glad to know you agree with me.[/QUOTE]
I think the vast majority on this thread agree with you.
I just don’t understand why these associations continue to allow this and don’t police themselves.
I think it’s flown under the radar until now, but with the current national publicity that will change. As I said much earlier, it’s not going to be chic to be associated with horse abuse any more, so hopefully the money will dry up.
No one wants a guest coming over for a cocktail party, seeing a picture of your show horse, and saying, “oh my god, you have one of those horses I saw on the news?! Does your trainer do all that terrible stuff?”
However, I can see how the BL people could close ranks and say “it’s a Big Lick thing, you wouldn’t understand.”
Edit: I worked at a large, successful saddlebred stable in the late 1970s, and I can say I never saw anything particularly abusive go on there. They didn’t get free choice water, which I found disturbing, but they were watered, and they did wear tail sets, which aren’t too nice, no turn out, and big shoes, but none were getting hurt or sored or abused in any way. I can’t agree with no turn out, and 30 minutes of riding a day, but it’s not that abusive when they have clean stalls and enough to eat. No one was causing these horses deliberate pain, anyway.
Saddlebreds and Morgans do not typically show together. Although I’m no longer part of the SS world, I was never at a show where there were Morgans exhibiting. Friesians, Hackneys, Standardbreds, yes. Morgans, TWH, no.
[QUOTE=hurleycane;6327729]
They once did. They shared the ring with them much like they now do with Morgans etc.[/QUOTE]
TRUE—SO TRUE!!! In the 1970s, an older TWH owner (in her 60s then) told me her trainer learned the “trick” of “gingering” a horse’s tail to make him hold it higher in the ring from an ASB trainer.
For those not “in the know”-- in the “old days” before tail sets, caps and all that jazz-- for some reason a high held tail while gaiting became “fashionable” for ASBs as well as TWHs. But not all horses held their tails “up” naturally
Some of the old time trainers would chew a little ginger root up and then stick it where the “sun don’t shine” in their horses’ butts to get that high-tailed look in the ring. Some of the ASB trainers were imitated by some of the TWH trainers-- in doing this.
I have also been told by that lady and others, that the practice of using chains, pads and mustard oil was also learned from some of the ASB trainers, but the ASB practice of shutting horses up in dark stalls or putting full blinders on them or using fire extinguishers never really caught on with the TWH trainers. And there is a reason for all the fire extinguisher stories-- They WERE pretty widely used as were fire crackers and whips by some ASB trainers. I have seen this with my own eyes in years past. Just saying.
And here come the defenders:
SBs and Morgans sometimes show together in the midwest, as part of a “society horse show.”
But probably not at any larger venues.
I can concur that gingering was very common – in the past you could buy it in a little jar at any SB specialty tack shop. Dont know about now.
I would broaden that to say that anyone breathing has a vested interest in this particular topic. Regardless who the TWH people think should be allowed an opinion here, everyone aware of BL “training” practices will have formed an opinion one way or another. And shutting people out for one reason or another will absolutely not help the plight of the horses or those who enjoy owning them.
Thanks for posting LuvmyTBs – as I said, they are rallying around their sport:
"“The walking horse industry has been under such a microscope for so long that most of the bad guys have been weeded out, and it was unfortunate that ABC tried to paint all of them as bad,” argues the younger Green, who sells animal feed and farm supplies. “The way they did that TV piece wasn’t even journalism.”"
The fact that all this brings in so much money makes people want to ignore it:
“Jennifer Jordan, who operates J. Jordan Boutique on the square in Shelbyville, said her business is closely connected with the Celebration and her sponsorship won’t be affected. "I have a lot of customers who show horses, and they’re just great people,” she said. “Do I think regulations should be in place and enforced to prevent soring? Yes, and that’s what they’re doing. But I don’t think this should shut down the horse show.”
The customers aren’t doing the training, honey!
[QUOTE=Ambitious Kate;6327709]
I wonder how many big lick owners and trainers are on this board?[/QUOTE]
I doubt there are many, if any, actual Big Lick/performance trainers in this forum.
For a while there were one or two people who owned performance horses and insisted that their horses were perfectly happy and sound and never had to endure any type of soring.
At least, that’s what their trainers told them.:rolleyes:
A couple of years ago there was an article in one of the Walking Horse magazines about the huge decline in TWHBEA membership. Here’s the original thread I started about it:
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=244551
The number of TWH members was almost cut in half over a period of just a few years.
The article contained quotes by one of the board members of the TWHBEA, and he seemed to think that the reason memberships took such a nosedive was that they just needed to promote more interest in showing. Otherwise, there was “no market for the breed” outside of Tennessee.
I think the TWHBEA’s idea of “showing” is exactly what caused the masses to stop renewing memberships. When they promote showing, they are spotlighting the Big Lick as the “ultimate” representation of what the breed is all about.
I was a member for a year or so after buying my TWH and just let it lapse. That was about ten years ago, when The Voice magazine was still a somewhat substantial color publication. Even then, it was little more than page after page of self-congratulation by the Big Lick’s good ol’ boys club and articles about owners who barely knew one end of a horse from the other but they sure loved to get their photo taken holding that trophy and ribbon.
But, I digress.
What the good ol’ boys consistently fail to realize is that many members dropped out specifically because of the Big Lick. They got tired of seeing membership dues go to such heavy promotion of the Performance horse while barely giving a nod to the other things the breed can do.
Showing is fine for getting judge’s feedback, but many TWH owners aren’t really interested in riding circles in an arena. We’re recreational riders. We’re out on the trails, where the natural gait and steady temperament of the TWH can really shine. The breed was intended to be able to carry a rider smoothly and swiftly over many miles, and that’s just what a flat-shod TWH will do.
The Big Lick horse? Not so much. Aside from the ugly contraptions on their feet, the movement of the Big Lick is so inefficient and impractical that it would be totally useless if you actually wanted to go anywhere.
I haven’t been around the TWH breed as long as many others on this board, but something I’ve learned about them is that they will put their heart into everything they are asked to do and they are one of the most stoic breeds I’ve ever seen.
That’s part of what makes the abuse so horrific. . .because they will just stand there and “take it” way past what many other horses would tolerate.
It looks like things may really be coming to a head in TN. For the horses’ sake, I hope so. They’ve had to be “stoic” way, way too long.
[QUOTE=Kwill;6327881]
SBs and Morgans sometimes show together in the midwest, as part of a “society horse show.”[/QUOTE]
In the Northeast, it’s fairly common to find a decent sized show with both ASB and Morgan classes. Even Flat Shod TWH classes. I haven’t seen a big lick class up here in over 15 years,
Freda,N Y
sweetheart ya ain’t from the south,this is good ole boy country,even if ya are a Law Enforcement Bubba you Do not force law on a good ole Boy.unless forced to do so by a HIGHER Power ie Federal.
and a word of caution folks that punch bowl remark is uncalled for.shame on ya
in the newpaper some of the sponsors (feed store)are staying with the Celebration. in the day 1960, you could send a groom most of the time it was a young blk boy to the feed store to buy THE STUFF out of the back room.the trainer had nothing to do with it, it was the boy. every barn at the show knew who sored,and they do now.
Our three largest multi-day shows here in GA combined Morgans, Saddlebreds and Friesians and have for several years now. Years ago some of our shows included TWH’s, but that hasn’t happened for a very long time.
ETA - JackieBlue/GaitedGloryRider - thanks for making this Saddlebred owner a part of the discussion once again, it is much appreciated. I have lived in Walking Horse Country all my life and can actually remember when Big Lick really didn’t exist. I didn’t always abhor a Big Lick Walker until I discovered what was behind creating the gait, nor was it always as horrendously exaggerated as it is now. What I do know is that the majority of the people who show their Big Lick horses will NEVER be convinced it is wrong. They will only stop when they are made to stop. It is too ingrained in them and most of them feel that if it was okay for their parents/grandparents to have done it, then it’s okay for them to do it as well.
[QUOTE=bayou_bengal;6327813]
BTW- All of the soring and stewarding practices filmed at the McConnells’ barn fall under the animal cruelty laws of the state of Tennessee, but I don’t believe any state charges have been filed.Tennessee has the proof now on video-- has McConnell been charged with animal cruelty under state law yet?
I don’t think any trainer has ever been procecuted under state laws for animal crelty-- that goes for any of the trainers in all of the Southeastern states who HAVE been cited with soring under the HPA of 1970- the federal law-- at shows held in Mississippi, Tennessee, Louisiana, Alabama and Georgia during the past 42 years. [/QUOTE]
So who do we contact to get them off their collective arses?
I would think the way to get things changed is to hit the BL asshats from EVERY direction possible.
[QUOTE=aarpaso;6327904]
Freda,N Y
sweetheart ya ain’t from the south,this is good ole boy country,even if ya are a Law Enforcement Bubba you Do not force law on a good ole Boy.unless forced to do so by a HIGHER Power ie Federal.
and a word of caution folks that punch bowl remark is uncalled for.shame on ya
in the newpaper some of the sponsors (feed store)are staying with the Celebration. in the day 1960, you could send a groom most of the time it was a young blk boy to the feed store to buy THE STUFF out of the back room.the trainer had nothing to do with it, it was the boy. every barn at the show knew who sored,and they do now.[/QUOTE]
Watch out- next thing you know some of the people on this site will be calling you a racist for identifying the groom as a blk boy.
But you are so right-- the ole “STUFF”-- “hot stuff” “steppin stuff” “scoot juice” “crawling cream” “juice” “touch” or “fix” consisting of some kind of caustic chemicals (though formulas and recipies may differ from time to time and trainer to trainer) known by these names and others has been around since at least 1960 and maybe even a little earlier.
I bet you can go into almost any tack store or feed store in Middle Tennessee or go to the online catalogues and order the ingredients right now.
Well here’s some brilliance from the GOBC:
Rutherford County-based Celebration Feeds, a division of Burkmann Feeds in Danville, Ky., took its name from the Shelbyville walking horse showcase and counts horse owners among its best customers. It specializes in premium horse feed.
Really? Horse owners are the horse feed store’s best customers? You don’t say?
I’d venture a guess that women are the number 1 client of most gynos too.
Thank you, Captain Obvious.
It’s not about banning the shoes, pads, and action devices AS A WHOLE… What really needs to be looked at is imposing strict regulations as to the SIZE AND WEIGHTS allowable, not matter what the breed, showing division, or purpose of the pads/shoes/devices.
I think the Big Lick got out of hand because there aren’t limits. There may be as to pad size (will have to check my rulebook when I get home) but there are none as to shoe and pad weight. Each of those packages per hoof weighs in the range of 5lbs. There is a limit of 6oz on showing action devices, but I have seen 16 oz trained with at the barns.
Put serious limits on this stuff and enforce it and the Big Lick will go away if they can’t put it on the horses for showing reasons. I don’t think anyone is going to take a horse Big Lick for a pleasure horse.
Wish I could get into this more right now, but typing on my phone is tedious to say the least!
[QUOTE=JollyBadger;6327898]
I haven’t been around the TWH breed as long as many others on this board, but something I’ve learned about them is that they will put their heart into everything they are asked to do and they are one of the most stoic breeds I’ve ever seen.
That’s part of what makes the abuse so horrific. . .because they will just stand there and “take it” way past what many other horses would tolerate. [/QUOTE]
That is what ‘struck’ me.
That horse in the Xties being smacked in the head… yeah I imagined that schmuck doing that to my horse and getting a hoof to the forehead… he would NOT stand for that.
And yes, those limits need to apply to any show horse in any division, with specifics for the horses that already go lighter or smaller (not a prob I think). But there are certain divisions were the shoes are not so big, but the weights are thanks to tungsten shoes!
[QUOTE=spookhorse;6327980]
It’s not about banning the shoes, pads, and action devices AS A WHOLE… What really needs to be looked at is imposing strict regulations as to the SIZE AND WEIGHTS allowable, not matter what the breed, showing division, or purpose of the pads/shoes/devices.
I think the Big Lick got out of hand because there aren’t limits. There may be as to pad size (will have to check my rulebook when I get home) but there are none as to shoe and pad weight. Each of those packages per hoof weighs in the range of 5lbs. There is a limit of 6oz on showing action devices, but I have seen 16 oz trained with at the barns.
Put serious limits on this stuff and enforce it and the Big Lick will go away if they can’t put it on the horses for showing reasons. I don’t think anyone is going to take a horse Big Lick for a pleasure horse.
Wish I could get into this more right now, but typing on my phone is tedious to say the least![/QUOTE]
DING DING! DING!
Gotta go after the action devices - cause right now the exaggerated mess is totally legal by the HPA!!!
Gotta strengthen HPA!
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