Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

[hurleycane]

[QUOTE=hurleycane;6345143]
I think we should start a petition to the likes of the Olympic Committee to excuse the good ole USofA from participation in equestrian events as a result of the USA’s tolerance of the stacks and chains on this breed.[/QUOTE]

Yes I think others have thought of this. The good ole USofA has been very tolerant for too long of the stacks and chains.

I think we all know, the very best way to get any legislative body to give consideration to any of the problems with the TWH is to have recognized professional horsemen’s organizations present the complaint.

A letter writing campaign from horse enthusiasts and such is most likely to be viewed as so much “hand wringing, hysterical overreacting women” Even if these letters come from all over the world. (See the other segregated TWH thread as an example of how this effort and thread is being viewed by some).

However, trust you me - letters of condemnation and rebuke from hallowed equestrian bodies would really carry tremendous weight. Specially the likes of the Olympic Equestrian.

The USA has a serious equestrian problem in that it is allowing this to continue. It is not a TWH problem - it is a problem for all of us to take care of.

Several times I have asked why haven’t all professional horsemans organizations spoken up??? Farriers and professional horsemen alike have got to throw their hat in the ring to get this cycle of abuse stopped.

Forty years of pleadings with the USDA and the Mitch McConnells (Tn) have gotten nowhere.

Nowhere.

ANd if this is the last hurrah for those fighting this abuse - goodness folks - help these handwringers out! Come to the table and publically! Officially condemn the stacks and chains and all that has been done to the TWH!

The very saddest thing about all this is every bit of those excessive stacks and chains are perfectly LEGAL. And we all know those damned action devices and or the soring are the only two ways to get a 4 legged animal to do this gawd awful crawl.

Professionals and their organizations of all breeds and disciplines have got to speak up. ANd if they will not willingly do so now, then I say pressure them.

It is what is missing from this letter writing effort: focused pressure from credible recognized professional horsemen outside of the TWH.

And yes, when they turn their backs and silence their lips they become complicit.

Quit trying to blend in with the wallpaper - get up on the floor and dance people.

Heck IMO, The Chronicle of the Horse magazine needs to speak up on this.

[WalkInTheWoods]

I dunno. You know what they say… when you point the finger at someone, you got three pointing back at yourself. I think it would an overwhelming project to get outside breed associations to get involved in this mess. There is already infighting within the different walking horse groups. The thought of trying to get other breeds involved makes my brain hurt.

Adding…

Hopefully individuals who are involved with any breed or people who dont even own horses but know abuse when they see it will write letters and help the Walkers.

[walknsound]

Yha’ll keep e-mailing, keep the momentum going, don’t let this die!

[hurleycane]

And add Chronicle of the Horse, Horse and Rider, Equus, Dressage Today and your local horsemens association or club etc., etc., etc., to the mailing list.

After the appropriate salutations, begin with the statement "Why are we silent on the matter… Can we not add the weight of our collective voices, experiences and authority to this very important effort??

[JollyBadger]

I think part of the problem, and one of the reasons this has gone on for so long, is that the TWH/Big Lick world is its own little bubble. The people running the TWHBEA seemed happy to keep it that way, too. They could keep the freak show up and running without being questioned by outsiders.

The people sitting in the stands at the Celebration and cheering for the next WGC were either so used to seeing horses that squat and flail that they thought it was “normal,” or they had an idea of what was done to make the horses move that way - either way, they didn’t have a problem with it.

Anyone who voiced concern about the horses was told “you just don’t know anything about the breed, it’s the way they move, and the (insert other breed name here) do (insert type of abuse here) to their horses and no one ever picks on them.”

Many horse-people from other breeds and disciplines just don’t pay attention to Tennessee Walkers, they don’t watch videos of them, and until the recent McConnell scandal they had no idea this type of abuse was going on.

I know some non-horse people who actually thought all TWHs moved like Big Lick horses, because the Big Lick horse is generally represented as the epitome of the Tennessee Walking Horse. It wasn’t until they saw a natural, flat-shod TWH. . .the way those horses “float” across the ground with so little effort. . .that they realized what a freak show the Big Lick is in comparison.

As the owner of one TWH (and “step-mom” to two others - all flat-shod trail horses), I am glad to see so many horse-people outside the world of the Tennessee Walker taking notice of what has been going on within the breed and getting involved in trying to put a stop to it.

[Plainandtall]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=vEJT9vwqwvY

This video is very interesting/horrifying to me. For one, you rarely get to see a padded horse “at liberty” so you can see how he moves without a rider and chains (with leg wraps)

I’m curious what the footing in there is- It sounds like concrete. (yikes)

Lastly… have you ever seen a join up clinician work a horse without asking the horse to change direction? I haven’t… typically I would say the bulk of the excercise consists of getting attentiveness and turns to the outside and then to the inside etc… In this vid the horse is worked for 8 solid minutes without changing direction. While I’m horrified that Monty Roberts even worked this horse- I think he must have either been directed by someone else or his own consience- to NOT make this horse turn around.

I’m posting this just as a reminder that while the soring may be illegal- the legal pads and chains are ALSO an abonimation. No horse should have to live with this crap nailed to his feet. While he didn’t have to turn around in a round pen- surely the rest of his life confined in a stall consists of NOTHING but turning around if he wants to move at all.

[caffeinated]

@Plainandtall;6347625

I’m posting this just as a reminder that while the soring may be illegal- the legal pads and chains are ALSO an abonimation.

yup. And honestly, it seems to me the shoeing packages alone could quite easily cause pain in the feet. When I watch horses moving in them it seems to me that it’s actually quite likely to cause pain in the foot, by changing how the foot hits the ground and the proper angles of the foot bones (they say they shoe to “proper angle” but I honestly can’t see how this is possible and in looking at pictures I see a whole lot of very long toes - even if, at standstill, the pastern and hoof look to be at the correct angle, those long toes are going to pull and cause pressure/discomfort, aren’t they?). Then add the precariousness and size of the platform, and they have to reach/stomp their foot in an unnatural way to avoid tripping.

It seems to me this is pretty bad on its own without even adding the caustic chemicals to the equation. I will never be able to wrap my mind around how people think this is beautiful…

[hundredacres]

[QUOTE=hurleycane;6346994]
Yes I think others have thought of this. The good ole USofA has been very tolerant for too long of the stacks and chains.

I think we all know, the very best way to get any legislative body to give consideration to any of the problems with the TWH is to have recognized professional horsemen’s organizations present the complaint.

A letter writing campaign from horse enthusiasts and such is most likely to be viewed as so much “hand wringing, hysterical overreacting women” Even if these letters come from all over the world. (See the other segregated TWH thread as an example of how this effort and thread is being viewed by some).

However, trust you me - letters of condemnation and rebuke from hallowed equestrian bodies would really carry tremendous weight. Specially the likes of the Olympic Equestrian.

The USA has a serious equestrian problem in that it is allowing this to continue. It is not a TWH problem - it is a problem for all of us to take care of.

Several times I have asked why haven’t all professional horsemans organizations spoken up??? Farriers and professional horsemen alike have got to throw their hat in the ring to get this cycle of abuse stopped.

Forty years of pleadings with the USDA and the Mitch McConnells (Tn) have gotten nowhere.

Nowhere.

ANd if this is the last hurrah for those fighting this abuse - goodness folks - help these handwringers out! Come to the table and publically! Officially condemn the stacks and chains and all that has been done to the TWH!

The very saddest thing about all this is every bit of those excessive stacks and chains are perfectly LEGAL. And we all know those damned action devices and or the soring are the only two ways to get a 4 legged animal to do this gawd awful crawl.

Professionals and their organizations of all breeds and disciplines have got to speak up. ANd if they will not willingly do so now, then I say pressure them.

It is what is missing from this letter writing effort: focused pressure from credible recognized professional horsemen outside of the TWH.

And yes, when they turn their backs and silence their lips they become complicit.

Quit trying to blend in with the wallpaper - get up on the floor and dance people.

Heck IMO, The Chronicle of the Horse magazine needs to speak up on this.[/QUOTE]

But other disciplines CAN’T be punished (as suggested in your idea to petition the Olympic Equestrians) - that would be counter-productive. This did not happen because other people turned their backs, it happens because people within that organization allow it. Others didn’t want to believe it ~~~ just like child sex trafficking…we hear about it, but can’t believe it until someone does an expose on Dateline or 60 Minutes. It doesn’t mean it’s our fault and we should all be punished, it also doesn’t mean that all parents are evil.

[lightlee]

I contacted the Tennessee Walking Horse Association. Their position as to the use of stacks and chains is that these devices, while unattractive/unappealing to some, are acceptable training aids and they are NOT harmful to the horses. They stated that they have a copy of study from Auburn which proves this.

I just cannot believe that Auburn would publish a study stating that the devices are not harmful. These devices cause long term, permanent damage. This should be a no brainer. Does anyone have a copy of the study performed by Auburn (or any other scientific study) which refutes the Tenn. Walkers Assoc claim that stacks/chains are not harmful?

[caffeinated]

lightlee, I think the Auburn study can be taken several ways…
From wikipedia, so their summary may be a little off:

A well-known study four-year study conducted at Auburn University (1978-1982) examined the health effects of action devices on gaited horses through the use of thermography. Entitled “Thermography in diagnosis of inflammatory processes in horses in response to various chemical and physical factors,” the study led researchers to conclude that chains “altered thermal patterns as early as day 2 of exercise with chains. These altered thermal patterns persisted as long as chains were used,” with normal thermal patterns seen after 20 days of recovery. A stallion in the study developed lesions from 8-ounce chains, after wearing them in nine 15-minute exercise periods (from September 22 to October 3). The Auburn study showed that 2-, 4-, and 6-ounce chains produced no adverse effects in the horses being studied. A 6-ounce chain is the legal weight of chain allowed in NHSC horse shows.

Here’s a link to the whole thing:

http://www.ahdf.org/pdf/Soring/AuburnStudy.pdf

What’s interesting is I’ve seen this study cited by people on BOTH sides of the big lick debate.

ETA… a quote from the study:

[SIZE=3][SIZE=3]

Thermography study suggests that shoeing of the forefeet in pads and
wedges from a barefoot status (horse # 20) causes a 1—2 degree rise
in temperature in the superficial and deep flexor tendon area.
Similarly, inflammation in this area was observed on thermography
when the angle of the hoof was raised or lowered (both horses). When
the heels were lowered on 5/11 and observed until 6/1 there was a
gradual decrease of inflammation in the f1exor tendon area.
Pressure readings taken at the usual 6 points on the foot fluctuated
to a minor degree, reaching their lowest levels 2 days after the
heels were elevated 8 degrees in both horses. Raising the heels 8
degrees caused both horses to stumble and tire easily. They did not
regain a sound gait for about 7 days. When the heels were dropped 12
degrees the horses gaited more soundly although there was swelling
in the flexor tendons for about 7 days. Raising or lowering
the heels of Tennessee Walking Horses and shoeing one with wedges
and pads from barefoot status causes thermal patterns in the flexor

tendon area that can be distinguished on thermography.

And man, reading the study is pretty interesting, I can’t imagine deliberately soring and pressure shoeing for science. Though I guess it gives some baselines and valuable information for those using thermography in the field as part of an inspection process…
[/SIZE][/SIZE]

[hurleycane]

As to the Auburn study - science sometimes will twist in and fold over facts so much that they loose all common sense and become unable to see what is in front of them.

The only comments I will make about the video that follows is “he is worked 20 minutes a day.” You think the horse could take more than 20 minutes? You like the warm up? You like the feet? Wall looks good to you? You gonna buy those tendons?

But it don’t hurt a bit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnvGUmV5GZs&feature=plcp

[hurleycane]

[QUOTE=hundredacres;6347695]
But other disciplines CAN’T be punished (as suggested in your idea to petition the Olympic Equestrians) - that would be counter-productive. This did not happen because other people turned their backs, it happens because people within that organization allow it. Others didn’t want to believe it ~~~ just like child sex trafficking…we hear about it, but can’t believe it until someone does an expose on Dateline or 60 Minutes. It doesn’t mean it’s our fault and we should all be punished, it also doesn’t mean that all parents are evil.[/QUOTE]

I think America needs to be punished for making this legal to do. Somewhere in the HPA the grotesque dimensions of these stacks are specified with parameters (I could not find it). So America makes the stacks legal. That is the point of my post. We actually condone this.

It will take other esteemed organizations getting involved in this mess to shed real light and get it banned.

Forty some years of fixing it internally and or FOSH or HSUS or even the great effort og the NWHA has not stopped the practice.

It is going to take more.

And now is the time.

[CFFarm]

Study or no study, there is no defense for this horrible method! Foot-binding didn’t kill the women either. This is no different in my eyes.

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=lightlee;6347716]
I contacted the Tennessee Walking Horse Association. Their position as to the use of stacks and chains is that these devices, while unattractive/unappealing to some, are acceptable training aids and they are NOT harmful to the horses. They stated that they have a copy of study from Auburn which proves this.

I just cannot believe that Auburn would publish a study stating that the devices are not harmful. These devices cause long term, permanent damage. This should be a no brainer. Does anyone have a copy of the study performed by Auburn (or any other scientific study) which refutes the Tenn. Walkers Assoc claim that stacks/chains are not harmful?[/QUOTE]

Personally, I consider the use of any action devices (chains, bangles, balls, beads, stacks, heavy shoes, etc.) to marks of incompetance in training and horsemanship.

That said, under the very narrow conditions of the Auburn Study they don’t do any damage.

A larger question is whether the action that they induce causes long term damage. In my opinion the answer to that question is a resounding YES.

But because the Study did not address this question effectively it can’t be used to support my belief. Of course neither can it be used to challenge it.

If all action devices were banned today you would see thousands of show Walkers dumped onto the market tomorrow because they have been bred to work with these devices (vice being bred for a true running walk). This has been the breeding focus since the mid-'50s. The running walk seen in any show division is a manufactured gait, not a trained gait.

As long as the crowd cheers and the money flows the beat, and the heat, will go on.

G.

P.S. Involving the Olympic organization at any level is a ludicrous proposition.

[WalkInTheWoods]

The Auburn study tracked horses for what - 2 weeks on 2 occasions ? That hardly compares to wearing the stacks for a whole show season. From what i understand, some of these horses only get a 2 month or so break from the stacks. How many trainers keep them in stacks all year until their show career is over ?

Ive always been taught to change a horse’s angles gradually to give tendons and ligaments a chance to adjust. I just cant understand how a horse can be wearing stacks for months, then have them abruptly removed in one farrier session. I dont get it.

What i do get understand (and hate) is Lets do whatever we have to do to this horse to earn that WGC. Wont matter how sound he is in the breeding shed. The dark side of any means to an end. But is the horse comfortable enough to go out and runwalk ? Was he ever even able to runwalk ?

[hundredacres]

[QUOTE=hurleycane;6347832]
I think America needs to be punished for making this legal to do. Somewhere in the HPA the grotesque dimensions of these stacks are specified with parameters (I could not find it). So America makes the stacks legal. That is the point of my post. We actually condone this.

It will take other esteemed organizations getting involved in this mess to shed real light and get it banned.

Forty some years of fixing it internally and or FOSH or HSUS or even the great effort og the NWHA has not stopped the practice.

It is going to take more.

And now is the time.[/QUOTE]

But “America” didn’t make this legal. Most American’s have no clue and therefore you can’t blame American’s. We need to give the general public the information they need so they can have a say, at last.

[WalkInTheWoods]

Here is today’s Roy Exum editorial:

http://www.chattanoogan.com/2012/5/30/227217/Roy-Exum-Tennessees-New-Horse-Bill.aspx

“As a matter of fact, the Horse Protection Act was introduced in 1970 but until federal prosecutors in East Tennessee took on Davis and McConnell at an inspector’s insistence, there have not been any guilty pleas registered in 40 years of federal oversight. Justice officials on the federal and state level, now aware of the chronic abuse and the continuing soring, vow there will be further indictments.”

Good.

The new animal abuse law goes into effect July 1.
McConnell goes to court in Fayette County in June.

Too bad the new law (and its loophole) can’t be tested on McConnell. He was was charged in February.

[hundredacres]

How much do you want to bet there will be some trainers hoping to relocate to other states soon.

[CarrieK]

[QUOTE=hurleycane;6347832]
I think America needs to be punished… [/QUOTE]

Allllllllrighty then.

[hurleycane]

[QUOTE=CarrieK;6348298]
Allllllllrighty then.[/QUOTE]

CarrieK - Keep my quotes in context.

Like it or not - America legally endorses and blesses this this stacked stuff.

A little bit of pressure on our legal system sure would help.

Pressure from a prestigious organization would do the trick.