Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

[QUOTE=Guilherme;6349174]
Generally speaking, yes.

While pulling shoes in the off season is usually not a problem for an otherwise sound horse pulling a 6" stack will grossly alter a horse’s way of going and will cause significant stress to the horse. Remember it didn’t go up all at once (it started in “colt packages” and then increased to a full stack). You just don’t pull these off and then slap them back on for the next show season.

G.[/QUOTE]

You missed the video I linked (post 1141) up where they bring a champion in from a break of 3.5 months in kegs in the field, then stack him, tack him, chain him up and go.

I think it is the one you are refering to Walkinthwoods.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnvGUmV5GZs&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEJT9vwqwvY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dldiyjjZsSk

Sorry - This is going to be long. I guess Monty doesnt know about paragraphs. :eek: Remember a few years ago when Monty Robers did a private clinic for TWHs, including the horse JFK. Here is his response after receiving a lot of negative comments.

From Monty Roberts: Thank you for asking about this clip that occurred about six years ago. I am extremely happy to have another opportunity to enlighten people as to my position regarding the human beings connected to the world of high level competition involving Tennessee Walking Horses. It is my pleasure to chime in once again where the “big lick” Tennessee Walking Horses are concerned. There are comments that are so disappointing to me that it is difficult to find words to clearly describe it. The one that hurts me the deepest is that which states, “how could you have condoned this???” What in that clip would ever lead anyone to believe that I condoned stacks or soring? Can you scrape up a little respect for me and what I know, what I don’t know and my ability to observe? The fact is that I was in Tennessee at the request of a large organization involving the Tennessee Walking Horse. It was my belief at the time and is still my belief that there is absolutely nothing wrong with a Tennessee Walking Horse. It is the people who would do atrocious things to the Tennessee Walking Horse that I take issue with. Only these people are the criminals; they should be prosecuted and receive lifetime bans from competition. This is my position; it was six years ago, it is today and it will be for the rest of my life. My entire career has been based on the fact that no one has the right to cause pain to another individual for the purpose of changing behavior. Please, once again, listen to the facts surrounding the clip in question. I was in Tennessee working only with three and four year old, untrained Tennessee Walking Horses for the purpose of demonstrating that they were more effectively trained without violence than ever with the use of violence. This was a private event, not a ticketed event. I had no control over the horses coming to me. Late in the proceedings, the gate opened and they brought in a horse they introduced as a world champion stallion. He was on stacks. It was clear later that all they were looking for was a photo op, including Monty Roberts and their world champion stallion. If indeed that was the case, they paid a price for the decision. You did not hear my conversation with the owner after that. Let me bring clarity to the facts surrounding this episode. I told the owner that I believed the artificial foot growth and the stacks were unnatural and harmful. The following two days were spent by me working as hard as I possibly could to get these people to see the error of those ways. I went through the stallion barn, explained what I saw wrong with the stacks and the artificial foot growth. Each of you should know that within three weeks I was told that each and every stallion would be on natural feet within three to four months, and that has been the policy of that operation since my visit. The recent exposure of the TWH trainer uncovered a criminal. He should be prosecuted and never allowed to train or compete with a horse for the balance of his life on this earth. An example must be set. These are words that I said six years ago regarding several trainers that were under suspension at that time. Suspension is a good thing so long as suspension means a life time suspension for anyone who would deliberately cause pain or set a horse up for pain in an attempt to improve performance. This is not my way and never will be my way. Some comments here are gratifying, as they left the door open for this explanation. Others were extremely disappointing because I would hope that each of you would have more faith in me than to think that I was ever in a position to encourage, comply with or condone activity of this sort. When explaining it years ago, I found myself saying over and over again, “Maybe you’re right. Maybe I should never go to another prison, youth detention center, youth in crisis center or domestic abuse center. Those are bad people in there. I should stay as far from them as I can and just simply wish them all dead.” This is ridiculous; this is where I am needed. I don’t get many calls to go to prayer meetings or Sunday schools for gifted children. Would you not be upset with me if I took the position that I should never go back to South America because they are extremely brutal to horses, wives, children and even people who work for them? It seems clear to me that you would praise me if I went to a youth detention center, worked with brutal parents and had a picture taken with a six year old boy who had two black eyes, a swollen lip and bruises over his entire body. Can’t you see that these wonderful TWH are simply those children and it is the adults in their lives that need help? Some of these adults including the trainer recently uncovered are beyond repair. They need a life sentence. Others have come to accept the brutal ways of a given environment, but can, in fact, be rehabilitated if we will spend the time, energy and effort to reach out in an attempt to show them a better way. In my courses I often ask, “If one sees a 90 year old lady knocked down by a man in his twenties in the street, who then grabs her purse and runs away, how many victims did you see?” The answer, virtually every time, is, ONE. I correct my students to say, “I bet you saw two. If we could follow the perpetrator and find him, he too would be a victim of violence at some point in his past. It doesn’t make him right, and he needs to be disciplined, but no one could do something like that unless he was mentally deranged or victimized to the extent that he became behaviorally dysfunctional.” These TWH trainers are behaviorally dysfunctional. Recently I was asked to come to Tennessee to further work with people who are desirous of change within that industry. Subsequent to the Night Line television report, I will not go unless I am accompanied by the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals and the Night Line organization themselves. This is a sad state of affairs because it discloses the fact that I am worried about people who will blame me for going anywhere near the TWH industry. I feel that these people are blaming the horses and not the criminals. If one sits back and clearly views all of the circumstances involved, they will realize that this is a mistake. Six years ago, I received reams of hate mail for the fact that I tried to help these wonderful animals by dealing with their human counterparts. I view this as a huge disservice to these animals that mean no harm to anyone and desperately need those of us who can influence in a positive way, their future. I ask each of you to muster faith in me and come at the world in such a way so as to encourage me to help with this problem, not to blame me for wanting to help with this problem. It is my opinion that each of you is trying to do the right thing and, while I am not blaming my detractors, I would ask for a more complete observation. Thank you for the opportunity to state my case. I am passionate about my life’s goal which is to leave the world a better place than I found it for horses, and people, too. What I have done in the world of the TWH is exactly in line with that goal. I will continue to help those in need for the balance of my days. Where you see fit, help me and younger generation that I am working hard with so that I can pass the baton in the sure and certain knowledge that this work will go on long after I am gone. The horses have earned this kind of dedication through thousands of years of honorable service. It is my belief that each of you has actively supported the non-violent training of horses. With that in mind, I caution you to be careful because people can perceive the darndest things. Six years ago I must have received four or five hundred extremely negative comments. It tends make one wonder if it’s all worthwhile and then I look into the eyes of these horses and I know I don’t have to wait for human beings to express appreciation for my work.
.

Thank you Hurley ! I couldnt find it !
Here is the whole process of putting on the stack ! Yowzah

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnvGUmV5GZs&feature=plcp

He is a two time WGC. I dont like the way he was moving in the paddock. Toes out on LF - and in the blacksmith shop - his RF looks like it has an old bow.

No, Thank You! Walkinthewoods!

I am so glad you brought the comments of Monte Roberts here to set it straight.

My heart soars.

The Auburn study is so flawed I can’t even believe it has any credibility. Not to mention it’s ancient by todays standards. Someone needs to to debunk it once and for all.

Found this little gem that happens to mention the horse JFK. These owners probably weren’t the least bit embarrassed either-- pay their fines (suppose that hurt much?) and off they go…

http://www.t-g.com/story/1714806.html

Very disheartening, as apparently, no one got the message…

wow. So, um, in no particular order:

1 - what the heck is that “pain measurement” doohickey? Is this actually a scientifically valid way of measuring pain? I can’t understand how that is possible. Someone please explain!

2 - the comments on the video from the producers mention that the horse’s angles are maintained on the stacks. Were they looking at the same horse I was looking at? Long toes, angled on the pads so that when the stack hits the ground (it must hit nearly level or the horse will trip), the horse will load weight on the hoof in the toe-down position. Even standing, while the pastern angle looks normal, to me the hoof angle does not. But then the horse looked to have long toes and contracted heels before they even started (could be wrong, I am no farrier,…)

3 - when the horse is in crossties getting his action devices applied… what’s going on with the horse behind him? He has wraps on over pasterns and fetlocks to halfway up his cannons. They look for all the world like the wrapping jobs I’ve seen in videos of soring. Even if they are therapeutic in nature, wouldn’t that support the idea that the stacks cause tension and inflammation in that part of the leg if it would need standing wraps/therapy?

It’s impressive to me how much differently the horse walks behind once the stacks are applied - before even getting saddled it’s like he’s reaching and compensating with his hind legs.

Anyhoo… back to the Auburn study - I don’t find it completely ridiculous, but I think the “conclusions” based on that study are totally overblown. It never really definitively states lack of harm, all it ever was was a thermography study of a very small group of horses. The only real conclusions I saw as it relates to TWHs were: action devices of over 6 oz cause changes on thermography (as well as other damage), under 6 oz doesn’t cause a change on thermography (this is not, IMO, a statement that they don’t “bother” horses but simply that in this small study it didn’t cause enough of a change on their measurement device), raising the heel above the toe by very small increments on stacks causes a big change in thermography and measureable problems with several structures in the hoof and lower leg. There were some other conclusions in there but those stuck out at me. I’m sort of astounded that anyone would use this study in defense of big lick (or, for that matter, to attack it) because it’s too small and the scope isn’t really big enough - it doesn’t really attempt to answer the pain question, just looks at several different scenarios in a very small population to see what differences there are in thermography scans. Unless I’m reading it way wrong, which is entirely possible.

Nope, you are correct. The toes are allowed to grow long and the heels are very contracted. And they continue that funky walk because, once off the stacks, the pull on the white line from that long toe H U R T S. I give the example: Bend your fingernail back and lemme know how that feels. Every single person says “It hurts!” Yup, and it hurts the horse to have that toe pulling, so they lift and slap to walk, so as to avoid breaking over that long toe.

[quote=caffeinated;6349597]…It’s impressive to me how much differently the horse walks behind once the stacks are applied - before even getting saddled it’s like he’s reaching and compensating with his hind legs.
[/quote]

Right again, he is reaching and compensating still. Due to the long breakover on the front, they have to come up way under themselves in the rear.

The Auburn Study was in response to a USDA contract. I don’t believe there was ever any peer-review and I’m not sure if it was ever published as “science”.

Interesting analysis and background revealed in this 1988 challenge…

“The study was composed of 18 phases that examined a variety of devices and conditions relating to soring. Of direct relevance to this case are those concerning the effect of ten-ounce chains and padded shoes, Phases VI, XV and XVI. Plaintiff argues that the results of these phases remove a factual predicate that was relied upon by the agency when it promulgated the existing regulations. The Court agrees. The study reveals that devices not specifically listed in the regulations can reasonably be expected to cause soreness to show horses. The agency, on the other hand, not only attempts to recharacterize the nature of the study, it discounts the validity of its findings.”

http://www.animallaw.info/cases/causfd681fsupp949.htm

Roy Exum trying to figure out all the double talk. Does make your head spin.

http://www.chattanoogan.com/2012/5/31/227298/Roy-Exum-It-Gets-Curiouser-and-Curiouser.aspx

That is a great article.

http://www.t-g.com/story/1854528.html
Interesting. Maybe a group of BL’ers who want to ditch TWHBEA with their lousy stance they refuse to change, and appear to be good guys while doing the same old things in dark barns.

Whenever the TWH show industry has been caught with its pants down, they have immediately engaged in a Dance of Deception and Misdirection.

They form a new committee, undertake a new initiative, appoint a new spokesman, swear on the family Bible that “this time for sure” they will change their ways, etc. Those of us who’ve been around or part of the TWH breed have seen this on multiple occations (I watched the first Dance in 1988). As soon as the “heat’s off” the old ways return and it’s “business as usual” within a few months (a year or two at most).

Will this time be different? No, not really. The fact that they still sailing up the De Nile River tells me nothing fundamental has changed in either the leadership or rank and file of the TWHBEA. Unless and until that happens this is just another battle in a very long war.

G.

Yes, they should form their own padded horse association, since it will be a cold day in hell when all factions of the TWH are unified. Then maybe the rest of us can get on with moving forward in getting the breed back to what it is supposed to be.
Not sure who is on what side, but I am for distancing myself as far away as possible from them, then they can deal with the fallout from their practices. It would be great if there were no padded horses at all, but since they are legal, IMHO it is not going to change any time soon.

[QUOTE=muleygirl;6350573]
Yes, they should form their own padded horse association, since it will be a cold day in hell when all factions of the TWH are unified. Then maybe the rest of us can get on with moving forward in getting the breed back to what it is supposed to be.
Not sure who is on what side, but I am for distancing myself as far away as possible from them, then they can deal with the fallout from their practices. It would be great if there were no padded horses at all, but since they are legal, IMHO it is not going to change any time soon.[/QUOTE]

You said it muleygirl. That IS the big hurdle. Have to get the law changed.

And indeed G. knows this dance all too well. I hope this is their last dance (with the sored stacked horse).

Said it before, gotta say it again: Roy Exum for president! I love how people are really giving him solid info and how he really can tell it like it is.

[QUOTE=Guilherme;6350411]
Those of us who’ve been around or part of the TWH breed have seen this on multiple occations (I watched the first Dance in 1988). As soon as the “heat’s off” the old ways return and it’s “business as usual” within a few months (a year or two at most).[/QUOTE]
Surely the First Dance was before 1988? My brother worked for the Tn Dept Ag doing Ag law enforcement in the mid 70s to mid 80s and I remember a story or two during that time…

Agreed it was earlier, but the big media blitzes came later. And this is the biggest yet. TWHBEA has lots of battle experience in this war. Now they have just added the option to pay for memberships online. I would sure like to know who this bunch is that formed the new TWSHO.

[QUOTE=subk;6350727]
Surely the First Dance was before 1988? My brother worked for the Tn Dept Ag doing Ag law enforcement in the mid 70s to mid 80s and I remember a story or two during that time…[/QUOTE]

Oh, yes. The very first was likely in the mid-‘50s when Sports Illustrated did an expose’ during the earliest days of the BL era. Then LIFE did a full photo spread in 1968 (which resulted in the first version of the HPA). There have been others. Each has had the same long term result: none.

Before 1988 I was not associated with Walkers. Thus that as my first Dance. :slight_smile:

G.

Yep!

[QUOTE=Guilherme;6350411]
Whenever the TWH show industry has been caught with its pants down, they have immediately engaged in a Dance of Deception and Misdirection.

They form a new committee, undertake a new initiative, appoint a new spokesman, swear on the family Bible that “this time for sure” they will change their ways, etc. Those of us who’ve been around or part of the TWH breed have seen this on multiple occations (I watched the first Dance in 1988). As soon as the “heat’s off” the old ways return and it’s “business as usual” within a few months (a year or two at most).

Will this time be different? No, not really. The fact that they still sailing up the De Nile River tells me nothing fundamental has changed in either the leadership or rank and file of the TWHBEA. Unless and until that happens this is just another battle in a very long war.

G.[/QUOTE]

Exactly!

[QUOTE=WalkInTheWoods;6348664]
Sorry to interupt but noone has answered my question. Do most BL horses stay shod with stacks year round or just for the show season ?[/QUOTE]

I have answered this question many times on several different threads that have appeared on coth during the past several years.

The answer is it depends, but probably more stay up on stacks year round than are “taken down” for the few winter months in which there are few or no shows.

In my experience, which includes almost 3 decades as an adult attending and showing in shows that have the BL horses as well as the flat shod horses, is that many, many BL horses stay up on pads year round.

As I have explained in the past-- for many “serious” exhibitors shows start as early as Feb. and go on through the year until the early part of Nov. and maybe even through Nov in some places.

You don’t take a BL TWH down off pads in December, and allow it to run free in a pasture until mid-Jan and expect it to “do anything” ie- take a “good” ribbon at a show in early Feb. So many TWH stay up on their stacks of pads all year long.

In my exerience the only reason a BL show horse comes down off pads during the show season is if it develops a thrush or fungal infection, if it “throws a package” which usually takes part of the toe of the hoof with it, or if the horse develops bowed tendons or “comes up lame.”

Naturally, most breeding stallions are not kept on pads after they are retired to stud, and former show mares that become broodmares are not kept up on the pads. The cost of maintaining a horse on pads is very expensive as far as farrier bills, so if a horse is not actively showing or being prepared for showing or is a show prospect being worked and marketed, they are not kept up on pads.

But any horse that is showing or in training or is a “prospect” is kept built-up (on the pads) and is "worked regularly using action devices – and ofthe the soring agents as well And of course they are stewarded to make sure they learn not to move while their pasterns are palpated at the shows.

I hope that answered your question, WalkintheWoods.