Terrified of Vet

[Strangeways]

The pony I ride, but don’t own, is apparently terrified of the vet. I’ve heard stories about how the barn staff won’t assist with appointments anymore and how the last time he had his teeth floated he need 5x times the normal sedation. At this point, the vet can’t get near him. His primary fear is needles.

I haven’t seen any of this. The only relevant experience I’ve had was with a chiropractor. I thought the chiro would be acceptable to him as he receives regular massages. But he wouldn’t let the chiropractor touch him in a meaningful way. I think he responded that way because the chiro put a chain on his nose. The chain was loose, but I think it reminded him of the vet. I’d never seen a chain used on him before.

In general, the pony is easy to handle. Good for the masseuse, as I said, and for the farrier. Stands for grooming and showers. Inexperienced children used handle him. But he knows the vet.

Any suggestions? I think the owner has tried a gel placed on the gum, which mildly sedates him before the vet arrives. I gather this didn’t work sufficiently. I’m concerned because the pony needs vaccines regularly, and recently has had some mysterious lameness.

[atr]

Have they tried a different vet? Could be that he associates this particular vet with some traumatic event.

Or it could be the “vet smell.” Thats a tough one. Try Vicks in the nose prior to the arrival of the vet?

[cilla1]

Is the vet a man of a woman? Mine is more afraid of men in general, among male vets he is particulary terrified by one. This vet never did anything meaningful to the horse, I believe he reminds him of some past bad experience. So you can try a vet of a different gender. If the main problem are needles you can try to desensitize the pony, at first using a syringe without needle and then something like a toothpick to simulate the sting of a needle

[Foxglove]

I’ve got one like that --he can smell the vet --or he recognizes the vet’s truck . Generally he will allow the vet’s assistant (young woman) to do what needs to be done --but the vet --nope. In crossties, if the vet approaches, he will first pin his ears, then toss his head up and down, and if pressed, will start to strike forward. That’s as bad as he’s ever gotten because the assistant will sedate him if we really need to do something (like teeth). A few years ago, the vet had another vet working with him, a woman. The vet-hating horse allowed her to vaccinate and worm him [once]–but looked confused most of the time --like, “You’re not a vet --why are you doing this to me?” — the next time she came out, the horse remembered her and reacted with his vet-hating antics.

[Displaced_Yankee]

I used to work in a barn where a young mare was very difficult for the vet. She wasn’t really started under saddle, so it was mostly checking teeth, vaccinations, or an odd bump or scrape. What worked for us: barn staff would enter the barn before the vet. We would apply a twitch, and once she was glassy eyed the vet would enter and give shots, draw coggins, etc with no issue. This was a large barn so this vet was out a few times a month for various issues. If she was near the young mare’s stall the vet would make a point to offer her a cookie, give her scratch, walk in her stall then walk out, and generally take advantage of time that she WASN’T having to do vet work on the young mare.

My own horse also got very naughty about needles for a time. When he reared in his stall with a lip chain I said thats enough, we need a new game plan. Since then I have twitched him anytime a professional needs to needle him (before he gets worked up). Vaccinations, blood draws, sedation for teeth. He is perfect. I can now administer IM shots when he is loose in his paddock. But since he has been bad before and for the safety of my vets, I still make them twitch him. It is easier and safer.

Properly applying twitches does not need to be a punishment nor a traumatic event. Both of these horses know the drill. There is no head flinging, no issues applying it, a few snorts and lots of cookies when we take the twitch off.

In the case of the OP’s pony blowing through sedation, I assume pony was jacked up before he was sedated. When I administered dorm gel or ace, we always tried to do it while the horse was relaxed and allow it to settle in.

[greywithchrome]

My pony is a bit like this (not scared of vets but very needle shy) and for years was very dangerous to sedate. Had to do oral ace, then IM, then IV, and the whole thing was a nightmare. Just by chance, I had to use a new vet for a certain lameness issue and my pony just adores her. Basically cuddles in her arms while the tech gives her the needle. I almost cried the first time I saw it. They are so sweet and gentle with her and will take as long as necessary to ensure its a good experience. I wont let anyone else give her a needle now if I can help it.

Having a patient vet can really make a massive difference. Aside from that, I have heard of people using a blindfold.

[WildGooseChase]

I have a “white coat syndrome” mare too. She has been progressively getting worse for the vet, who is a lovely, well educated DVM. In fact, he’s the only DVM that has ever worked on her. She is fine with farrier, chiropractor, dentist etc. I’d bring in a new vet that isn’t afraid of horses, and won’t man handle him to make it a positive experience, IF that’s been an issue. A loose chain over the nose is not a deal breaker, but yanking on said chain would be. I also wouldn’t be afraid to lip twitch if absolutely necessary, to keep everyone and your pony safe.

I ended up saying screw it, and twitched my gal for her spring vaccinations, and it was an absolute breeze compared.

[Scribbler]

@Strangeways

The pony I ride, but don’t own, is apparently terrified of the vet. I’ve heard stories about how the barn staff won’t assist with appointments anymore and how the last time he had his teeth floated he need 5x times the normal sedation. At this point, the vet can’t get near him. His primary fear is needles.

I haven’t seen any of this. The only relevant experience I’ve had was with a chiropractor. I thought the chiro would be acceptable to him as he receives regular massages. But he wouldn’t let the chiropractor touch him in a meaningful way. I think he responded that way because the chiro put a chain on his nose. The chain was loose, but I think it reminded him of the vet. I’d never seen a chain used on him before.

In general, the pony is easy to handle. Good for the masseuse, as I said, and for the farrier. Stands for grooming and showers. Inexperienced children used handle him. But he knows the vet.

Any suggestions? I think the owner has tried a gel placed on the gum, which mildly sedates him before the vet arrives. I gather this didn’t work sufficiently. I’m concerned because the pony needs vaccines regularly, and recently has had some mysterious lameness.

There are ways to change a horse’s ideas about vets and other things, but they require everyone be on the same page about behavior modification and about ground work and about not punishing horses for being afraid.

I cannot imagine using a chain to get chiro work done. Seems totally counterproductive.

I am currently working with a mare with a strong panic reaction. I couldn’t even clean her feet 2 years ago. She has taught me a lot about how punishing a fearful horse just makes the problem worse.

However this is not your horse and you have no say in his overall management and handling, and you are not among people who understand ground work. So there’s not much you can do.

[Wyndwolfe]

My experience is in line with another poster who mentioned a different vet and LOTS of patience. I had a TB mare who had “issues” with vets for years (and they were all good vets). I could give her shots without even a halter. When we moved, we had to find a new vet. The first time he came out, he must have taken 15 minutes with her, just letting her accept him. He gave her shots in the stall that first time, which blew my mind. He won me over, and I used him for 20 years. He always had patience with my horses, and I will always be grateful for that and for how much he taught me.

[moonlitoaksranch]

Donkeys are notoriously bad for shots, too. I think it has something to do with their overactive self preservation instincts (or maybe they have an overactive imagination, lol). There are training techniques you can use with vet fearful donkeys that would probably work well on scared ponies. It involves desensitizing them to little tiny pin pricks (rewards and praise) and moving up slowly from there. We did this with one of our donkeys successfully. I think Meredith Hodges describes such techniques better than I can on her Q and A page. She’s awesome with mules and donkeys, but ponies can be very similar.

[Strangeways]

I think you’re making some hefty assumptions. Where did I suggest that the horse was being “punished” for being afraid? Or that I’m “not among people who understand groundwork”? Is this all based on the chiro placing a chain on his nose? That was one incident, and the chain was never tightened because the pony never did anything dangerous. The loose chain was probably draped on him for 90 seconds because I quickly realized that he might be bothering him. As for why the chiro draped the chain it in the first place, she said it was a precaution. That didn’t sound CRAZY to me. She’s very well-regarded, and I received the recommendation for her on COTH.

My trainer and I have done groundwork sessions with the animal, and I know that his owner takes groundwork classes with him for time to time. I wouldn’t say it’s a big part of our repertoire, but it’s part of his training. And we take a gentle approach. But we’ve focused more on in saddle work because that’s where most of his regular problems are; he’s good on the ground for everything but the vet (and anyone who approaches with a nose chain apparently). As a team, we’ve made a log of progress with his spooking under saddle.

But you’re right in that I’m limited with what I can do as I’m not the owner. I’m not sure how much she’d experiment with different vets. She seems reluctant to bring the vet out at all. I might start giving him fake injections with a tooth pick. But that doesn’t help the anxiety that builds-up as the vet approaches. I might make him more amenable to skin pricks, but I fear that he’d lose that sense of acceptance as soon as he smelled vet. I think a twitch would be the same as a nose chain; I think he’d freak out before we get it one. I wonder if there’s a way to acclimate him to “vet smell.” Is there a predominant odor associated with vets?

[Scribbler]

@Strangeways

I think you’re making some hefty assumptions. Where did I suggest that the horse was being “punished” for being afraid? Or that I’m “not among people who understand groundwork”? Is this all based on the chiro placing a chain on his nose? That was one incident, and the chain was never tightened because the pony never did anything dangerous. The loose chain was probably draped on him for 90 seconds because I quickly realized that he might be bothering him. As for why the chiro draped the chain it in the first place, she said it was a precaution. That didn’t sound CRAZY to me. She’s very well-regarded, and I received the recommendation for her on COTH.

My trainer and I have done groundwork sessions with the animal, and I know that his owner takes groundwork classes with him for time to time. I wouldn’t say it’s a big part of our repertoire, but it’s part of his training. And we take a gentle approach. But we’ve focused more on in saddle work because that’s where most of his regular problems are; he’s good on the ground for everything but the vet (and anyone who approaches with a nose chain apparently). As a team, we’ve made a log of progress with his spooking under saddle.

But you’re right in that I’m limited with what I can do as I’m not the owner. I’m not sure how much she’d experiment with different vets. She seems reluctant to bring the vet out at all. I might start giving him fake injections with a tooth pick. But that doesn’t help the anxiety that builds-up as the vet approaches. I might make him more amenable to skin pricks, but I fear that he’d lose that sense of acceptance as soon as he smelled vet. I think a twitch would be the same as a nose chain; I think he’d freak out before we get it one. I wonder if there’s a way to acclimate him to “vet smell.” Is there a predominant odor associated with vets?

I wasn’t meaning basic groundwork. I’m thinking of behavior modification that’s quite profound like Andrew McClean or Warwick Schiller. I expect that there is more than just the vey where this pony is not fully ok in his skin. If the horse has been forced into situations that terrify him and he is getting worse over time then that’s a clear sign that whatever is being done with him is failing.

You say he is resistant to chiro touch. So he’s got bigger anxieties than just the prick of the needle. It would likely be counter productive to start there.

You need to first gain his trust that you are never going to push him past his comfort zone and then you are going to need to learn to read his signs of discomfort before he explodes.

You will need to get him fully accepting of touch, then of the sight and smell of syringes with no needle, then with little pinches, etc. Then with strangers walking around his body.

You might want to skip vaxx and teeth for a year while you work on this.

The number one skill you need to develop with a horse like this is watching the tiny shifts in comfort level and playing with things that just push him very slightly. The first step might be just letting him glimpse a syringe.

Jumping in and giving him pin pricks at this stage is likely going to be a disaster.

You don’t desensitize a horse. You get him to trust you and put up with mild duscomfirt

[SBrentnall]

I had a horse who came to me with an absolute terror of vets. The pre-purchase took 6 hours because the vet couldn’t get near him.

Some things I did to solve the problem:

• I found a treat that he absolutely loved, then reserved it for vet use.
• I clicker trainer him and then used the clicker with a syringe (no needle) against his neck in lots of different positions every day.
• I bought a stethoscope and used it on him each day, rewarding with the clicker and treats.
• Every vet who visited the property for any reason visited him and gave him his special treat.

By the time I sold him, he would nicker every time he saw a vet truck. He stood calmly for the new owner’s pre-purchase and didn’t even need sedation for x-rays.

[Weezer]

My horses have reacted very differently based on the particular vet so if there is one vet or vet tech in the clinic they seem to prefer, I try to stick with that one.

I once had a boarder horse who was fussy about needles so the vet gave me a pack of needles without syringes and a few times a week I’d prick the horse with a clean needle while feeding her. Eventually she stopped reacting. So then I’d administer the vaccines under the vet’s supervision.

I have a boarder horse now who is very nervous about vets so I give her an oral sedative before the vet arrives. The vet works on her first so the mare doesn’t have time to get worked up about it. This works well for us.

I don’t have much experience with twitches but I have seen how they can make the situation worse if they are not used properly. Because I don’t know how to use them, I have been able to find other solutions so far.

[NaturallyHappy]

You are awesome. I was going to suggest something like that. You did a better job that I.

[blob99]

Nothing radical to add that hasn’t been mentioned, but wanted to also share my experience. I have a mare who also has a big issue with needles. She gets bad vaccine reactions and had come to associate the vet with all things evil in the world.

The biggest thing was having a vet that wanted to change this association and behavior. She would come and just give my horse a treat any time she was at the barn for ANY horse. We did this a lot until she got used to the vet coming into her stall and just giving her a treat. Then she would give treats and use her fingers to poke her neck while she gave treats. Then she came in with injections in her hand but didn’t give them. When we did finally have to do stuff with shots, instead of pulling her out and making a big deal of holding her, the vet just went in and did what she’d been doing, gave her treats in the stall but this time instead of just holding the injections and poking with fingers she gave the shots.

[Strangeways]

I can’t claim to have much experience with advance groundwork, so you likely have a point there.

But, I think you’re imagining a more sensitive horse than this pony. On any regular day, he is not sensitive to touch. He used to be flinchy about his ears, but we’ve improved that, and even at it’s worse you could still put on a bonnet or fly mask easily enough. He’s comfortable with grooming whether it’s me, or the horde of kids who used to brush him during his stint as a lead line pony. He’s has/had two bodyworkers who both thought he was a pleasure to work with. He only shied from the chiropractor after she put the the chain on even though no one ever tightened it. The chain was the only thing that was different from his normal grooming sessions or his massages, so I figured the it had to be cause. Easy to believe that a vet from his past used a chain as well.

You are right about building trust though. I believe that strengthening our trust bond was a big part of his becoming less spooky under saddle. He is hypervigilant and anxious under saddle although he’s improved a lot. We figured that in his dark past, he had bad experiences being ridden and with the vet, but not with day-to-day groundwork.

[Strangeways]

Reply to SBrentnall

Thank you for these suggestions. Is there anything else I can acquire/do that is specific to equine vets? I have been around horses for a long time, but haven’t supervised many vet visits (knock on wood, I suppose). Any other equipment or smells that could be setting him off, that I then can desensitize him to?

[Strangeways]

Reply to blob99

Thanks. We are at a fairly large barn as well, so I wonder if we could something like this as well. I can see if the vet is willing to be a treat dispenser

[stryder]

I met a vet who rubbed a lavender ointment on the inside of her wrists when she came to work on horses. She let the horse sniff, which transferred it to their nose. That helped. It also helped mask the “vet odor” that they all have.