Thanks, CarMax. Buyer beware or I'm an idiot.

[Horse_Rider]

Traded in my older truck for a new(er) SUV at CarMax. Love the way it drives, nice to have a newer vehicle, hate the payments, blah, blah, blah. Something kept niggling in the back of my mind though. Why does a vehicle with a history of use as a rental car need a Heavy Duty tow package? Seemed odd. Why did they do that? Did they do that? Did CarMax know what it was talking about?

Kept thinking about it. Finally started digging and there is no way to find out what package this vehicle has for this novice vehicle owner. (Please don’t tell me to crawl under it and look, I have no idea what I’m looking for. Window Sticker look ups don’t work. The internet is vague.) Finally messaged someone at Ford, spent forever waiting, only to be told the vehicle maxes out at 6,000 lbs. That’s not a Heavy Duty tow package. That’s Standard. WTF.

So, now I have no tow vehicle, need to go back and probably spend more hours getting this thing returned (fully expect this to be a PITA) and I 100% don’t trust CarMax to accurately tell me what tow package is in their vehicles. Yay… Just a heads up to those vehicle shopping. Don’t be like my dumb @$$ with a useless vehicle sitting out front.

Best guess is that if the vehicle doesn’t have the 7 prong trailer hitch, that it’s probably not a heavy duty tow package? Unless someone changed it out, which was going to be my naive move until I got suspicious. So, I have to contact someone to look up the VIN on every vehicle I see? The person at Ford would only tell me I’d have to go to a Ford dealership and ask them what package each vehicle had. Of course my trust is now hovering below zero for car dealerships.

(Yes, I know I’m an idiot, but I’ve been juggling needing to switch to an SUV on top of a horse who is reinjuring himself every time I blink and currently losing his mind on week 6 of stall rest… Please don’t show up just to scold me. I’ve got enough on my plate. At this stage I’m ready to sell the trailer too and wipe my hands of this whole mess.)

[RubyTuesday]

Can you tell us what kind of vehicle it is? A little more information could help. Also, what is the weight of the trailer itself?

[Bluey]

Well, I don’t know much about this, but the little I know tells me a towing package means more than the hitch system, like a beefed-up cooling, maybe transmission, perhaps extra trailer brakes, etc.

Hope that helps when looking for another, more suitable vehicle.

[RubyTuesday]

The absolute best idea, of course, would be to go to your local Ford dealer and have a discussion with them. They may not even charge you for looking at the vehicle or looking up its VIN. When you call corporate, you don’t always get the sharpest crayons in the box. It’s best to talk to the people “on the ground” who service them. Take it from someone who has been to the Chicago Auto Show to look at brand new vehicles, corporate people and sales people are not usually the ones to advise you on technical stuff.

[shiloh]

Without someone actually laying eyes on it I don’t think there is any way you are going to find out what the vehicle actually has. Something could have been installed aftermarket. Do you have a mechanic that you trust? Do you have 3A because they do vehicle inspections and might be able to tell you what you have.

And to someone who does not actually haul horses./animals 6k sounds like a lot. It is - for stuff not living breathing wiggling animals. You are right to be concerned about the tail wagging the dog.

[Horse_Rider]

It’s a 2016 Ford Expedition. CarMax listed it’s max tow weight as 9,200 lbs, which would make it the Heavy Duty tow package. I finally got suspicious between the 4 prong plug and the past history of rental vehicle. (Who sups up the tow package on a rental vehicle?)

My trailer, empty is 3,500lbs. I’m towing a 17.2hh TB, plus all his gear. I know there are equations and all that, but I tend to believe Ford when they say the Standard tow package’s max is 6K. 3,500 lb trailer + easily 500 lb gear + 1,400 lb horse = not going to even consider pulling my horse behind a vehicle rated for 6K.

As a past rental vehicle sold at auction to CarMax, I very much doubt it has any add ons. My current plan is to call my closest Ford dealer to see if they’ll look at it and confirm what tow package is on there. It took “Danielle” forever to reply to me on the Ford site so I assume she was wandering around lost and confused. I want to confirm the tow package but I’ve got a bad feeling and already e-mailed CarMax to tell them I planned to be in Friday to return it. (They give you 5 days to return it so I need to turn it over ASAP.)

Silver lining: my horse is on injured reserve so we’re not going anywhere any way? Struggling to not consider this a sign from the universe that I should hang up my show boots and play in the back yard for the next couple of years. Fully in the depressed stage of horse-life-is-eating-me-alive.

[Ambitious_Kate]

I don’t understand why you’re getting so worked up about people not knowing what tow package your vehicle has, if they haven’t inspected the car. And you’re right, the only one who can inspect it and know what he’s looking at is a Ford truck mechanic. Yet you haven’t had anyone look at it (who knows what they are looking at) yet. I say simmer down and get a check up.

The “tow package” isn’t about the hitch. The “tow package” is the engine, suspension, the cooling system, brakes, and mostly the super heavy duty transmission. You could have that lovely tow package, and some dingbat could put the wrong hitch on it, so I would say, were I there, simmer down and have someone who knows what they are looking at look at your truck. Meanwhile, You can look on the inside of the door of the vehicle, where it will give you that vehicle’s towing capactities, so you can start there, not what people say they think it is. It certainly would be illegal for Ford to put a sticker on the door which was incorrect, so that’s where you will get the first idea of which pacakage you have purchased in this car.

Then get a ford truck mechanic to look at it.

[xQHDQ]

@Ambitious Kate

I don’t understand why you’re getting so worked up about people not knowing what tow package your vehicle has, if they haven’t inspected the car.

It’s because it was advertised as having the heavy duty tow package and it appears that it does not. That’s a big deal.

[pluvinel]

The Ford Expedition is built on the F-150 truck body…as opposed to the Ford Excursion, which is unfortunately no longer made…which is built on the F-250 truck body.

If you get your truck’s VIN number, Ford has a web site to tell you the build package of your vehicle.
http://vehicleidentificationnumber.c…ord-truck.html

In any case, if you like the truck, the F-150/Expedition is eminently capable of towing one horse and his gear in most any two-horse bumper pull trailer.

But if you are really want to know about your truck, here is a Ford truck forum.
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/9…g-package.html

The electrical connectors are one tell-tale of towing…but they are not definitive.
4 pin only = basic 6,000 lb capacity
4 pin/7 pin = Heavy Duty 9,000 lb capacity

But you an also look at the number of the radiator to see if it is a heavy duty radiator…that should tell you more.

Take this as an opportunity to learn about trucks…because in every case of used vehicle purchases it is always “buyer beware.”

Here is a Ford brochure that might help.
https://www.ford.com/cmslibs/content…ition_Sep7.pdf

[clanter]

@xQHDQ

It’s because it was advertised as having the heavy duty tow package and it appears that it does not. That’s a big deal.

that is just wording and what does the word really mean… heavy duty to some is is light duty to others

I am going through a similar issue regarding the wording on a new UL325 Standard where they used "it shall not be possible to make simple modifications in the field"…

My question to Underwriters Lab which has derailed the implementation of this Standard was just could you explain just what a simple mortification is? I kind of believe they will need to alter this wording from simple to cannot or no/none

Otherwise the Standard is useless as it is not definitive

[fordtraktor]

@clanter I hope they don’t make simple mortifications on the field! Sounds like an HR issue waiting to happen.

Anyway I think the OP said the ad for the car she bought indicated it was rated to pull 9000 lbs which does not appear to be true and should be a returnable mistake.

[pluvinel]

@fordtraktor

@clanter I hope they don’t make simple mortifications on the field! Sounds like an HR issue waiting to happen.

Anyway I think the OP said the ad for the car she bought indicated it was rated to pull 9000 lbs which does not appear to be true and should be a returnable mistake.

The “towing capacity” (e.g…, Maximum Loaded Trailer Weight) depends on the vehicle build.

This towing capacity is defined by the rear end gearing ratio, whether it is 2WD or 4WD and the GCWR…which is available from the vehicle spec tag affixed to the B-pillar post on the driver’s side.
https://www.ford.com/cmslibs/content…ition_Sep7.pdf

[Guilherme]

Another example of why relying on “towing capacity” numbers is not the best thing to do.

What is the GCVWR of the vehicle? That’s a definitive question that is independent of plug type. That information should be available in the owner’s manual.

A Ford dealer can answer all these questions. For $85/hr. (at least for our nearest dealer). Pay it to get the Real Answer. Then bill CarMax if they were wrong.

G.

[Where_sMyWhite]

pluvinel had some excellent suggestions. If the vehicle had a factory installed tow package, that will be indicated in the VIN.

The Ford forums are a great place to ask questions and learn.

How long have you actually had possession of this vehicle? FWIW, car sales droids, dealers or otherwise, are the worst people to talk to about vehicle tow capacity/capability. Buyers should be the very knowledge party in the purchase

[Horse_Rider]

@xQHDQ

It’s because it was advertised as having the heavy duty tow package and it appears that it does not. That’s a big deal.

Yup. That would be why I was all “worked up.” Because I specifically chose this vehicle based on the tow package claim on the website. (Standard = 6000 max, this was supposed to be Heavy Duty: 9000 max. That’s a 3000 pound difference. That’s a bit of a big deal when it comes to towing a living, breathing animal behind your vehicle.) I waited over a week for it to arrive. I was assured it had the heavier duty tow package. The customer service guy told me wasn’t it great it could pull 9000lbs? Only me doing my due diligence picked up on the issue before it was too late to return it.

Unfortunately none of the websites that provide VIN info had my vehicle. (For future searchers: googling window sticker will pull up websites into which you can enter a VIN and get info about your vehicle’s build. Apparently once a vehicle is sold this doesn’t work? Or this vehicle’s time in a rental fleet meant it never got a public sticker? Regardless I could not publicly access it.)

I called a local Ford dealership today and asked if I could bring it in for a look. They were great and told me to just give them the VIN and they would double check for me and save me a trip in. Yup. Standard tow package. I really appreciate that he took time out of his day for a non-customer to look it up. It helped me be sure I was making the right decision. Thankfully I’m within the 5 day return window for CarMax so I’ll be taking time out of my day tomorrow to return it. Just booked a $200 rental vehicle for the weekend so I can see my mother for mother’s day. CarMax already sold off my truck which was the only vehicle I owned that could handle the miles to make the trip home. This little flub is costing me in time, stress, and cash.

I looked at the truck sticker for ages trying to find anything about towing. I do not see a GCVWR. If someone else wants to point it out for a learning experience, I will be glad to post it.

[Where_sMyWhite]

@Horse Rider

Unfortunately none of the websites that provide VIN info had my vehicle.
…
I called a local Ford dealership today and asked if I could bring it in for a look. They were great and told me to just give them the VIN and they would double check for me and save me a trip in.

FWIW, the VIN is assigned to a vehicle before the vehicle is assembled/built and contains information about things like original paint color and special options/packages. Rental vs sale should have nothing to do with the VIN. The window sticker is also typically part of the bill of materials required before the vehicle is assembled. The VIN is known before the vehicle is built as it appears in numerous locations on a vehicle… some of which the public knows about, a few the public doesn’t know about

[Guilherme]

@Horse Rider

Yup. That would be why I was all “worked up.” Because I specifically chose this vehicle based on the tow package claim on the website. (Standard = 6000 max, this was supposed to be Heavy Duty: 9000 max. That’s a 3000 pound difference. That’s a bit of a big deal when it comes to towing a living, breathing animal behind your vehicle.) I waited over a week for it to arrive. I was assured it had the heavier duty tow package. The customer service guy told me wasn’t it great it could pull 9000lbs? Only me doing my due diligence picked up on the issue before it was too late to return it.

Unfortunately none of the websites that provide VIN info had my vehicle. (For future searchers: googling window sticker will pull up websites into which you can enter a VIN and get info about your vehicle’s build. Apparently once a vehicle is sold this doesn’t work? Or this vehicle’s time in a rental fleet meant it never got a public sticker? Regardless I could not publicly access it.)

I called a local Ford dealership today and asked if I could bring it in for a look. They were great and told me to just give them the VIN and they would double check for me and save me a trip in. Yup. Standard tow package. I really appreciate that he took time out of his day for a non-customer to look it up. It helped me be sure I was making the right decision. Thankfully I’m within the 5 day return window for CarMax so I’ll be taking time out of my day tomorrow to return it. Just booked a $200 rental vehicle for the weekend so I can see my mother for mother’s day. CarMax already sold off my truck which was the only vehicle I owned that could handle the miles to make the trip home. This little flub is costing me in time, stress, and cash.

I looked at the truck sticker for ages trying to find anything about towing. I do not see a GCVWR. If someone else wants to point it out for a learning experience, I will be glad to post it.

In my Chevy 3500HD and in my Volvo it’s in the Owners Manual. You have to know the configuration of the vehicle but it’s there. I’ve only owned one Ford truck and it’s long gone. I think it was in the OM there, too.

G.

[Horse_Rider]

@Where'sMyWhite

FWIW, the VIN is assigned to a vehicle before the vehicle is assembled/built and contains information about things like original paint color and special options/packages. Rental vs sale should have nothing to do with the VIN. The window sticker is also typically part of the bill of materials required before the vehicle is assembled. The VIN is known before the vehicle is built as it appears in numerous locations on a vehicle… some of which the public knows about, a few the public doesn’t know about

Yes, but for some reason all searches I did told me I did not have access to that info. I read 1 throwaway comment on a Ford message board that said that info isn’t available if the vehicle isn’t for sale. Don’t know if that’s true but I certainly didn’t have access when I looked. (I must have checked every window sticker site out there!)

[Horse_Rider]

@Guilherme

In my Chevy 3500HD and in my Volvo it’s in the Owners Manual. You have to know the configuration of the vehicle but it’s there. I’ve only owned one Ford truck and it’s long gone. I think it was in the OM there, too.

G.

I’ve never seen package specific Owner’s Manuals. My truck manual was for Sierra’s and Sierra Denali’s, for example.

In the case of the Expedition OM, they has a lovely chart with 6 rows of your various options (Standard package and Heavy Duty with AWD, 4WD, etc.) The chart showed you recommended tow weights and warned you not to go over them. It did not specify which one your vehicle was. It told you to see your dealer if you had issues. I knew the chart forward and backward. What I did not trust was that my dealership had told me the right configuration. Turns out I was correct not to trust their word.

[McGurk]

To add on to what everyone else has said, not all “Heavy Duty Tow packages” are the same. For instance, I thought the manufacturer’s HD Tow package on a farm truck I used included a transmission oil cooler. It did not. And this was on a 3/4 ton truck, bought specifically to tow. Hauling the weight I did (4 horse steel bumper pull stock) killed the transmission well before its time.

I also got into arguments with multiple salespeople who told me I didn’t really need a 3/4 ton truck, because they didn’t understand how pulling a horse trailer differs from a boat trailer. I finally snapped at one and said “I want to go 60 mph over Afton Mountain with a full trailer and the AC on in the summer. I need the 3/4 ton.”

I learned to ask very specific questions about what was in the “Heavy Duty Tow Package.” Sometimes, it’s just the hitch mount and the brake hookup, so suitable for hauling a car trailer or boat trailer. The package you want should include beefed up transmission (with separate cooler), radiator and suspension, plus the hitch mount and brake hookup. Some trucks can be configured with different engines and rear axles for towing. My current half ton truck (I now pull a two horse) has the larger the standard engine, rear axle differential for towing and the beefed up transmission/radiator/suspension. It’s the first two that are critical to making a decent towing vehicle at 1/2 ton.

Here’s the good news: IME, Car Max is pretty great to deal with and should accept the return of the vehicle with no hassle. Just return the truck and go out to look for another one, armed with the knowledge that not all tow packages are created equal. Bear in mind that used useful tow vehicles are very hard to find. Be prepared to make some modifications on you own when you find something close.