Thanks for the effort

[Montanas_Girl]

@TheMoo

This is the strangest thread about oil and the strangest OP. I feel bad for Montana’s Girl.

Haha. Thanks. I’m remembering why I was so happy to leave academia in favor of the feed industry a few months ago, for sure!

[Scribbler]

@Fellbutbackup

Oil does trigger GB contraction

Horses dont have gall bladders.

[Fellbutbackup]

@Scribbler

Horses dont have gall bladders.

Agreed, and mentioned.

[Fellbutbackup]

@Montanas_Girl

No. Just the opposite in fact. Fat soluble vitamins (A,D,E,K) are not water soluble and therefore must be “carried” in a fat source to be digested.

Thanks for your response. That is the lower limit right? Is there an upper limit?

[JB]

@Fellbutbackup

This actually is much closer, thanks. Pleasantly surprised. But as you liberally choose to mention, that info is already available. I am more interested in the reaction and the mechanism.

Thank you for your post; it is certainly above and beyond the expectation at this point.

You’re welcome.

I’m not sure what “interested in the reaction and mechanism” means. The mechanism of Vit E absorption has been laid out several times. I’m not even sure what “reaction” you’re looking for

Regardless, I hope you eventually find what you’re looking for.

[BayMoose]

Can I take a stab at it? Could it be the overall role of replacing NSCs with fat and the effect on fermentation and impact on the microbiome?

There is one paper that I know of showed that replacing NSCs with soybean oil decreased the abundance of cellulolytic bacteria in the hindgut and as a result decreased fibre fermentation. https://beva.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.2746/042516400777612008

Horses also have a huge abundance of Prevotella which in humans is typically associated with good health outcomes (well…as will all science…not always), but decreases when humans eat high fat, western diets…just because it loves fibre. One could imagine something similar taking place in the horse. Of course we know nothing about the microbiome in horses so that’s just me speculating.

[Fellbutbackup]

@BayMoose

Can I take a stab at it? Could it be the overall role of replacing NSCs with fat and the effect on fermentation and impact on the microbiome?

There is one paper that I know of showed that replacing NSCs with soybean oil decreased the abundance of cellulolytic bacteria in the hindgut and as a result decreased fibre fermentation. https://beva.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.2746/042516400777612008

Horses also have a huge abundance of Prevotella which in humans is typically associated with good health outcomes (well…as will all science…not always), but decreases when humans eat high fat, western diets…just because it loves fibre. One could imagine something similar taking place in the horse. Of course we know nothing about the microbiome in horses so that’s just me speculating.

Thank you very much. This much more the kind of information I need.

The sources are informative, also. https://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1413-70542013000500007&lng=en&tlng=en

Unfortunately main caveat is the obviously small sample sizes but regardless still very informative. Thanks again. Going to look these over.

Any chance that you happen to be aware of a paper comparing saturated vs non saturated fats on the hind gut?

[Fellbutbackup]

@JB

You’re welcome.

I’m not sure what “interested in the reaction and mechanism” means. The mechanism of Vit E absorption has been laid out several times. I’m not even sure what “reaction” you’re looking for

Regardless, I hope you eventually find what you’re looking for.

Thanks. Don’t worry about it.

[S1969]

@Fellbutbackup

This actually is much closer, thanks. Pleasantly surprised. But as you liberally choose to mention, that info is already available. I am more interested in the reaction and the mechanism.

Thank you for your post; it is certainly above and beyond the expectation at this point.

Good lord. :no:

Here’s my advice:

Next time lead with this - “can we have a discussion about reaction & mechanism of …XYZ. A reliable source disagrees because of ABC…”

Instead of “what’s the deal with…XYZ.” And then snottily dismiss every piece of advice because “nope, it’s something else” and “But that info is already available.”

You will soon find that people won’t bother responding because it’s a game of guessing and veiled insults.

[Montanas_Girl]

@Fellbutbackup

Thanks for your response. That is the lower limit right? Is there an upper limit?

To my knowledge, there has not yet been identified a toxic threshold for Vitamin E in horses (assuming that’s what you’re asking).

[JB]

Reaction and mechanism? I don’t understand. The mechanism of E uptake has been described many times here. Reaction to…what? To adding oil (any form of fat, it doesn’t take oil to be saturated or unsaturated fat) in general? It’s a great source of energy for horses. Some need it, some don’t. Some shouldn’t have any or much due to various issues, but those aren’t reasons to not feed it to horses in general.

Replacing some calories coming from higher (than needed) NSCs, with fat calories may be healthier - not because of the added fat (but that may be better for a given horse), but because of the reduced sugar and starch.

That’s certainly not a reason NOT to feed oil, which has been the OP’s constant quest to find out more.

And it’s actually a requirement for PSSM1 horses to have more fat and lower NSC in the diet.

It may not be a good idea to add fat (of any significance, and not just oil) to the EMS horse, but it’s fine for some.

Horses are really good at adapting to using dietary fat for energy.

There actually is some kindasorta upper safe limit for E - about 20IU/kg (9IU/lb). That 10,000IU for an 1100lb horse, which is the therapeutic upper level for supplementing during EPM treatment, and does require (or should) some monitoring.

So while it’s not really proven or well studied:
"Above this level, coagulopathy and impaired bone mineralization have been reported. Furthermore, in healthy exercising horses, high dosage of vitamin E supplementation (10x NRC requirements) was shown to be potentially detrimental to absorption of certain nutrients and is not recommended. "

https://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/labs/…tamin-e-horses

[BayMoose]

@Fellbutbackup

Thank you very much. This much more the kind of information I need.

The sources are informative, also. https://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1413-70542013000500007&lng=en&tlng=en

Unfortunately main caveat is the obviously small sample sizes but regardless still very informative. Thanks again. Going to look these over.

Any chance that you happen to be aware of a paper comparing saturated vs non saturated fats on the hind gut?

Yeah almost all research done in horses has a small sample size. There are no papers on saturated vs unsaturated fats in horses, but there are quite a few in humans. As a rule general themes (ie. at the phylum level) tend to be similar in horses and humans, but the fact that horses simply eat so much fibre changes things at the genus level. Here is a good review of some of the literature although it’s a bit old now https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s12967-017-1175-y

[endlessclimb]

@Fellbutbackup , are you an alter of that other poster who has a problem horse … who was it, JLu or something?

Same response type, that’s for sure.

[Libby2563]

I was wondering how a thread about vegetable oil could reach almost 100 posts so quickly, and now I see. :lol:

[Fellbutbackup]

@BayMoose

Yeah almost all research done in horses has a small sample size. There are no papers on saturated vs unsaturated fats in horses, but there are quite a few in humans. As a rule general themes (ie. at the phylum level) tend to be similar in horses and humans, but the fact that horses simply eat so much fibre changes things at the genus level. Here is a good review of some of the literature although it’s a bit old now https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s12967-017-1175-y

Thanks. What about hydrogenation?

[TheMoo]

OP do you know how to research?

[Fellbutbackup]

@endlessclimb

@Fellbutbackup , are you an alter of that other poster who has a problem horse … who was it, JLu or something?

Same response type, that’s for sure.

No idea what that means. Maybe she and I should be friends. Introduce me.

[Fellbutbackup]

@BayMoose

Yeah almost all research done in horses has a small sample size. There are no papers on saturated vs unsaturated fats in horses, but there are quite a few in humans. As a rule general themes (ie. at the phylum level) tend to be similar in horses and humans, but the fact that horses simply eat so much fibre changes things at the genus level. Here is a good review of some of the literature although it’s a bit old now https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s12967-017-1175-y

Need to clarify— on horses.

[Fellbutbackup]

@BayMoose Actually PM sent

[Fellbutbackup]

@TheMoo

OP do you know how to research?

That is actually a far more complicated question than you as the asker might intend.

Research is a loosely used word many varying definitions. To most, “research” means a google search. Most would automatically click on the wikipedia page. And then call it a day. But the limitation to doing that is that there is a cap on it. This kind of “research” brings up only popular knowledge, whether it is right or wrong.

But the formal definition involves the pertinent databases and asking experts. Preferably first hand experts. I happen to have access to some of those databases. The average person would not. There was no reason for you to believe prior to this that had any more access than the average.

However, that still leaves asking experts. The reason we do this is that experts have at hand knowledge perhaps even without looking it up. And if not, an efficient way of finding it. Experts also keep up with the nuances of the field, and especially in the field of nutrition, may have knowledge that would be common for them but yet not -popular-, in this sense meaning not established. In human nutrition new info can take a decade to establish, often with much bemoaning about lack of research. Equine nutrition I am seeing maybe doubles it as it can trickle down from small animal research meant for humans. Regardless, the “research” is always changing.

Therefore consulting experts, or those who have kept up to date, is valuable research.

In this thread, I count four people with expertise in this topic or related topics.

I explain this because you felt the need to ask. Does this make sense to you?