Thanks for the effort

[Fellbutbackup]

@JB

Reaction and mechanism? I don’t understand. The mechanism of E uptake has been described many times here. Reaction to…what? To adding oil (any form of fat, it doesn’t take oil to be saturated or unsaturated fat) in general? It’s a great source of energy for horses. Some need it, some don’t. Some shouldn’t have any or much due to various issues, but those aren’t reasons to not feed it to horses in general.

Replacing some calories coming from higher (than needed) NSCs, with fat calories may be healthier - not because of the added fat (but that may be better for a given horse), but because of the reduced sugar and starch.

That’s certainly not a reason NOT to feed oil, which has been the OP’s constant quest to find out more.

And it’s actually a requirement for PSSM1 horses to have more fat and lower NSC in the diet.

It may not be a good idea to add fat (of any significance, and not just oil) to the EMS horse, but it’s fine for some.

Horses are really good at adapting to using dietary fat for energy.

There actually is some kindasorta upper safe limit for E - about 20IU/kg (9IU/lb). That 10,000IU for an 1100lb horse, which is the therapeutic upper level for supplementing during EPM treatment, and does require (or should) some monitoring.

So while it’s not really proven or well studied:
"Above this level, coagulopathy and impaired bone mineralization have been reported. Furthermore, in healthy exercising horses, high dosage of vitamin E supplementation (10x NRC requirements) was shown to be potentially detrimental to absorption of certain nutrients and is not recommended. "

https://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/labs/…tamin-e-horses

Typed out a long response and the forum crash/slowdown/whatever ate it. It is probably easier to discuss this over PM.

[JB]

Uhhhhhhh

Why would you go on and on and on about what the general person might do? The question wasn’t “do people know how to research?”

The question was “do YOU know how to research”

if you feel (and I agree) that too many people don’t know how to sift through reliable articles, vs actual research publications, vs opinion blogs, then that’s not answering the question.

Do YOU know how to sift through all the opinions and poorly done research, do you know what sites have credible information (The Horse, pubmed, JVMA, etc), or don’t you?

It was actually a really simple question. Do YOU know how to do valid research. You do, or you don’t.

And if you don’t, welcome to the majority, so I’m not sure why that would be such a problem to admit.

I’ve wondered the same. Your questions have been bouncing around all kinds of directions, asking things that aren’t that hard to look up.

To think that only “experts” keep up with things is an insult to those who are laymen and also choose to keep up with the latest in a given field.

Your reply here makes it sound like you have some formal medical training. Do you?

[Fellbutbackup]

Typed out a long response. Forum slowdown ate it. It would be easier to discuss this over PM. @JB

[Fellbutbackup]

@Fellbutbackup

Typed out a long response. Forum slowdown ate it. It would be easier to discuss this over PM. @JB

Nevermind. Lol.

[Fellbutbackup]

@JB

Uhhhhhhh

Why would you go on and on and on about what the general person might do? The question wasn’t “do people know how to research?”

The question was “do YOU know how to research”

if you feel (and I agree) that too many people don’t know how to sift through reliable articles, vs actual research publications, vs opinion blogs, then that’s not answering the question.

Do YOU know how to sift through all the opinions and poorly done research, do you know what sites have credible information (The Horse, pubmed, JVMA, etc), or don’t you?

It was actually a really simple question. Do YOU know how to do valid research. You do, or you don’t.

And if you don’t, welcome to the majority, so I’m not sure why that would be such a problem to admit.

I’ve wondered the same. Your questions have been bouncing around all kinds of directions, asking things that aren’t that hard to look up.

To think that only “experts” keep up with things is an insult to those who are laymen and also choose to keep up with the latest in a given field.

Your reply here makes it sound like you have some formal medical training. Do you?

Yeah seriously nevermind.

[Simkie]

@Fellbutbackup

That is actually a far more complicated question than you as the asker might intend.

Research is a loosely used word many varying definitions. To most, “research” means a google search. Most would automatically click on the wikipedia page. And then call it a day. But the limitation to doing that is that there is a cap on it. This kind of “research” brings up only popular knowledge, whether it is right or wrong.

But the formal definition involves the pertinent databases and asking experts. Preferably first hand experts. I happen to have access to some of those databases. The average person would not. There was no reason for you to believe prior to this that had any more access than the average.

However, that still leaves asking experts. The reason we do this is that experts have at hand knowledge perhaps even without looking it up. And if not, an efficient way of finding it. Experts also keep up with the nuances of the field, and especially in the field of nutrition, may have knowledge that would be common for them but yet not -popular-, in this sense meaning not established. In human nutrition new info can take a decade to establish, often with much bemoaning about lack of research. Equine nutrition I am seeing maybe doubles it as it can trickle down from small animal research meant for humans. Regardless, the “research” is always changing.

Therefore consulting experts, or those who have kept up to date, is valuable research.

In this thread, I count four people with expertise in this topic or related topics.

I explain this because you felt the need to ask. Does this make sense to you?

And how strange indeed that since you have access to the “pertinent databases” that all of us peons cannot possibly reach, you still come here looking for experts, rather than contacting the corresponding authors of the study in this area directly. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

You’re clearly just a troll. Question is, which one of our recently banned players is back…?

[JB]

@Fellbutbackup

Typed out a long response. Forum slowdown ate it. It would be easier to discuss this over PM. @JB

Definitely not easier over PM. PM, forum, it’s all the same when it comes to convenience. The written word is still the written word.

[Fellbutbackup]

@JB

Definitely not easier over PM. PM, forum, it’s all the same when it comes to convenience. The written word is still the written word.

Thanks for the effort your have put in so far then.

[Freebird]

It’s times like these where I wish COTH supported GIF’s…😳

[Fellbutbackup]

@JB

Uhhhhhhh

<snip>

To think that only “experts” keep up with things is an insult to those who are laymen and also choose to keep up with the latest in a given field.

Your reply here makes it sound like you have some formal medical training. Do you?

The inverse is actually more true, but the expert probably would not be insulted.

What do you imagine happens when you take Dr. Google’s advice instead of your PCP’s?

[S1969]

@Fellbutbackup

Typed out a long response. Forum slowdown ate it. It would be easier to discuss this over PM. @JB

No, we’d all like to know.

[JB]

@Fellbutbackup

The inverse is actually more true, but the expert probably would not be insulted.

What do you imagine happens when you take Dr. Google’s advice instead of your PCP’s?

I’ve SEEN what happens when the “I don’t really know how to research, or differentiate between opinions and facts” advice is taken.

I’ve also seen what happens then some PCPs try to give very specific advice in a field they don’t have the training for.

I don’t need to imagine.

[Mouse_amp_Bay]

JB, your patience is exemplary in this thread.

As they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink.

:no::winkgrin:

[Fellbutbackup]

@JB

I’ve SEEN what happens when the “I don’t really know how to research, or differentiate between opinions and facts” advice is taken.

I’ve also seen what happens then some PCPs try to give very specific advice in a field they don’t have the training for.

I don’t need to imagine.

Most PCP’s err on the side of caution than otherwise. That is rare and odd.

[ThreeWishes]

@Mouse&Bay

JB, your patience is exemplary in this thread.

As they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink.

:no::winkgrin:

This thread makes me want to drink lol.

[Simkie]

@ThreeWishes

This thread makes me want to drink lol.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[JB]

@Fellbutbackup

Most PCP’s err on the side of caution than otherwise. That is rare and odd.

I never said otherwise. Don’t put words or thoughts into anything I say, that isn’t actually there.

You asked what happens. I told you I’ve seen what happens. I didn’t say it was rare or common.

I’ve seen some craptastic nutrition advice coming from PCPs, telling patients that dietary fat is bad, in the absences of any medical condition that would preclude healthy amounts of dietary fat. That is decades old information.

I’ve seen horrid nutrition advice, including totally freaking out over 30% protein in ration balancers, coming from “GP” vets who know nothing more than what they learned in a few hours of study given by a nutrition company in vet school 30 years ago.

[Fellbutbackup]

@JB

I never said otherwise. Don’t put words or thoughts into anything I say, that isn’t actually there.

You asked what happens. I told you I’ve seen what happens. I didn’t say it was rare or common.

I’ve seen some craptastic nutrition advice coming from PCPs, telling patients that dietary fat is bad, in the absences of any medical condition that would preclude healthy amounts of dietary fat. That is decades old information.

I’ve seen horrid nutrition advice, including totally freaking out over 30% protein in ration balancers, coming from “GP” vets who know nothing more than what they learned in a few hours of study given by a nutrition company in vet school 30 years ago.

Vets aren’t generally experts in nutrition. Where did you find those PCP’s?

[Freebird]

@Simkie

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Wait…COTH really does do GIF’S now??? Dang! 😂😂

[Simkie]

@Fellbutbackup

Vets aren’t generally experts in nutrition. Where did you find those PCP’s?

LOLOL. Everywhere?

Nearly every adult I know has a story of some incredibly awful advice or instruction from a PCP somewhere along their lives. There are so many BAD docs out there

Rare and odd? Yeah, no. :lol: :lol: