That pony lawsuit...OMG you have to see those Heritage Invoices

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Button;7018844]
I was more just having a little financial reality check, I don’t entirely disagree with you, since I don’t know this case personally. However I think my limited finances mean that I have to be more diligent with my care and PPEs since it’s not like I can afford to just go buy another horse if something like this were to happen.[/QUOTE]

OK, but you put this in terms of “not having sympathy” for anyone involved.

One can have a financial reality check without being unkind to others… even the rich.

And not “entirely disagreeing with me” because “you don’t know the case”? Why back up to a tentative opinion that’s tentative because it is ill-informed?

Look, I’m poor, well-educated and philosophically a Marxist. I have every reason to doubt the great characteristics or credibility of rich people. But I think it’s out of line to come out with a mean-spirited opinion of rich folks and then to wuss out for reasons of not knowing details that would inform an opinion.

Get an informed opinion before you attack, or don’t do it. Even rich people deserve to be treated fairly.

And I don’t think one can infer that the people wealthy enough to keep horses at Heritage farm are “less diligent” about their horses’ care because they can afford to buy another one. Most high-end show horses get great care.

I’m with you. I can own one horse at a time, if I can do most of the riding and the work myself. So I, too, need to be diligent with management and I have spent too much on PPE’s in the past. The differences between me and someone with a lot of money are two: They can afford to replace horses or have more than one in case they break one. But also, they can afford to show enough to hurt a horse (or be tempted to). Part of what keeps my horses sound is my inability to pay for 40 weeks a year of showing.

[Kalele]

Stemming from the mention of kids and what are they responsible for knowing. How do these kids not care what’s going into their horses? I got my first pony at 11. My parents had PLENTY of money. I never had to concern myself with bills or show fees(showing nearly every weekend). But man was I diligent. I had an accounting journal(since this was before mainstream computers) and I would write down every vaccination and medication my pony got. I would talk to the vet. I bought a medical book that was written for use in pre-vet classes and looked up EVERYTHING. I dunno…maybe I was a minority or just a little bit OCD lol

[mckenna310]

$175 to clip a 12hh pony? Sign me up! Just gotta buy a ticket to FL and grab my clippers!

[Button]

[QUOTE=mvp;7018894]
OK, but you put this in terms of “not having sympathy” for anyone involved.

One can have a financial reality check without being unkind to others… even the rich.

And not “entirely disagreeing with me” because “you don’t know the case”? Why back up to a tentative opinion that’s tentative because it is ill-informed?

Look, I’m poor, well-educated and philosophically a Marxist. I have every reason to doubt the great characteristics or credibility of rich people. But I think it’s out of line to come out with a mean-spirited opinion of rich folks and then to wuss out for reasons of not knowing details that would inform an opinion.

Get an informed opinion before you attack, or don’t do it. Even rich people deserve to be treated fairly.

And I don’t think one can infer that the people wealthy enough to keep horses at Heritage farm are “less diligent” about their horses’ care because they can afford to buy another one. Most high-end show horses get great care.

I’m with you. I can own one horse at a time, if I can do most of the riding and the work myself. So I, too, need to be diligent with management and I have spent too much on PPE’s in the past. The differences between me and someone with a lot of money are two: They can afford to replace horses or have more than one in case they break one. But also, they can afford to show enough to hurt a horse (or be tempted to). Part of what keeps my horses sound is my inability to pay for 40 weeks a year of showing.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps not having sympathy was a poor choice of words, I certainly didn’t intend to be mean spirited about anything, and I didn’t “attack” anyone. I stated that I can’t entirely disagree with you because I was not present for this incident and can never know what really happened other than the second and third hand information that we have here. Maybe this was a case of shady horse trading, and the owners of the pony have every right to sue. I that case I agree with you, they’re standing up against poor business practices and that could potentially have a trickle down effect for the rest of us, whom as you correctly pointed out cannot afford litigation. If it’s a case of the pony foundering and there was no prior history that was covered up, then it acts as a warning to sellers that when something doesn’t work out, you could get dragged through the mud after the fact.

My point about the PPE exams relates to the various scenarios postulated about whether there was rotation present or not. As a buyer, I want to be deeply involved in that PPE process, because any findings have very real financial consequences for me. That’s the part of this debate that I’m having a problem understanding, did the pony’s owner not pay attention during the purchase? Was something actually covered up? Something went amiss here, but I think it’s inappropriate to jump to conclusions without knowing the facts.

My reality check comment was directed toward the post that implied 12k was not too expensive for a major show, and toward the beginning of this thread, which was about the huge numbers on the bills posted. Most of us can’t afford that, and to hear those numbers discussed as normal levels of expenditure is frankly mind blowing for me. I don’t have any ill-will toward people who can afford it, but it’s also very far outside my frame of reference.

[mckenna310]

[QUOTE=circus peanuts;7018654]
I have a question - if a horse is blocked or nerved, is there any internal or external scarring that occurs that would show that this had been performed? Or is it all a series of injections?[/QUOTE]

I’ve seen a few nerved horses and there is no visible mark. It is done through a very small incision.

[STA]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;7018857]
Heritage is misrepresenting the complaint that I read. The complaint specifically did not claim that Heritage was the pony seller. The complaint is based entirely on agency principles. Pony Mother hired Heritage as her agent to find and vet a pony for her daughter. She says that the PPE showed things that should have been made known to her before the purchase BY HER AGENT–and the significance pointed out BY HER AGENT.[/QUOTE]

According to you the complaintant asked Heritage to find and vet a pony for her daughter. Why would Heritage vet a pony? A qualified vet would vet the pony. And "…showed things that should have been made known to her before the purchase BY HER AGENT–and the significance pointed out BY HER AGENT. If this was the case then if the trainer said this pony/horse is a good jumper but, you did not win a class for the first six months could you get your purchase price returned? Maybe the AGENT did not think (his opinion) something significant. The customer hired the trainer and the trainer gives their opinion - AHHH second guessers. Everytime time the stock market has a huge loss all the investors whose brokers said the securities would be a good investment should get their money back. Should we give these people six months also?

[Portia]

All I can say is Holy Crap on a Cracker.

[vxf111]

My translation of the allegations. Not intended as legal advice or a legal opinion and worth what you paid for them (nothing)…

Tichner bought Sports Talk from Lane Change Farm in March 2012. Heritage was Tichner’s agent for the purchase. Heritage represented to Tichner that Sports Talk was suitable and sound. Tichner told Heritage she wanted a PPE. Heritage picked Dr. Miller for the PPE. Miller took radiographs, they showed rotation. Both Miller and Heritage gave the pony the thumbs up after the PPE (it is not expressly stated but I am assuming Tichner was not present for the PPE but Heritage was and that Tichner was not contemporaneously given the films). Tichner bought the pony and her daughter showed him. Tichner only later discovered the pony was sore and had been blocked to compete at pony finals in August 2012 (It is not stated but I assume that Tichner was a client of Heritage’s from the time she bought the pony, through finals, and only subsequently discovered the unsoundness).

In essence, Heritage and Dr. Miller were in cahoots to get Tichner to buy a pony that Heritage and Dr. Miller knew to be lame. After the purchase, Heritage hid the lameness from Tichner. Tichner also blames Pony Lane farm for selling her a lame horse.

Miller admits he examined the pony but denies everything else and raises legal defenses.

And I summarized Heritage’s arguments in post 162.

[Portia]

[QUOTE=War Admiral;7017505]
Oh! As an aside, it suddenly occurs to me that these must be the invoices that were referenced from the podium last night at the Town Hall…[/QUOTE]

oooh, good catch WA. That may be it.

I don’t have so much problem with the board and training fees (not that I could afford that for my 3), but some of the other charges are scary. Assuming “HS Medication” is “Horse Show Medication,” since it only shows up in connection with shows, just imagine what those special medications the ponies only get at shows might be. Yikes. We’re not talking about a gram of bute or a shot of banamine.

[Portia]

[QUOTE=vxf111;7019095]
My translation of the allegations. Not intended as legal advice or a legal opinion and worth what you paid for them (nothing)[/QUOTE]

vxf11, can you answer a question about the complaint? I’m a Texas lawyer, but I do international law and have had cases in federal court in NY. But that thing is the weirdest complaint I’ve ever read. Is it a New York State court requirement to repeat each element of each allegation separately for each defendant, or was that just some bizarre quirk of the plaintiff’s lawyer? Honestly, the whole complaint could have been set out just like you did above and been much clearer.

[vxf111]

I don’t practice in NY. I am not used to that pleading format. I don’t know if that’s typical for their state courts or not. I don’t think it lends itself to clarity, that’s for sure…

[Portia]

Well if that pleading practice is in the state rules, they need to move into the 21st century. I can’t imagine the court actually likes plowing through those paragraphs.

[chunky_munky]

[QUOTE=Janeway;7018746]
This is the part that I don’t get in this situation: why would Heritage need to bother with a pony with problems? The client in this case had the money to buy any pony, I’m sure they could’ve found a suitable one with a good vet record. Afterall they seem to make their money from the showing, you’d think they would choose one that would hold up! (not including older, well-established ponies that might have some issues).

That’s what makes me question whether the pony did indeed have anything pre-existing. Part of me thinks the pony went lame after the family left Heritage, and the mother is just looking for someone to blame.[/QUOTE]

Janeway, see post #120 and a similar response from CBoylen. We think the same.

[doublesstable]

[QUOTE=chunky munky;7017969]
As a trainer, an attorney will advise you to never name and itemize drugs. I am not endorsing this practice, just saying that i had been advised that as well as many others in the business that i know.[/QUOTE]

And I guess that’s why I would expect any drugs my horses gets to be itemized on my VET BILL.

HS Medication is a charge as a client I would question!! All other charges seem the going rate for a high end facility.

I pay similar rates but what separates me from this situation I don’t have that many horses and buy all my own equipment. For years I was a DIY so I could play.

I don’t begrudge anyone that wants to pay this kind of money - they are employing so many people. But again, I would question why my vet wasn’t handing the meds and what meds are they?

[chunky_munky]

Maybe the vet WAS handling the meds and that’s why they cost so much LOL.

[searching12321]

[QUOTE=doublesstable;7019233]
I would question why my vet wasn’t handing the meds and what meds are they?[/QUOTE]

First of all the horse show meds aren’t relevant to this discussion other than they showed up on an invoice.

The owner isn’t implying they were inappropriate. Most horses in this realm with the exception of FEI horses show on something. Do you take Advil or Tylenol if you’ve had a hard workout? There are many BNT who medicate ethically. Bute, dex, equioxx, etc are all legal and have valid reasons for being used. Doesn’t mean a kid can or can’t ride or that a horse is drugged. Equioxx for example is about $15/tube from the vet and you need to give it two days before you show to get a good blood level. So if you are showing for three days you would have five or six days of this medication provided you give it the last night of the show which most trainers do. So without any markup that would be $90 in equioxx alone. If you charged for dosing and a markup for buying it and keeping it in stock you could get to the $165 mark easily.

This lawsuit was about an owner trusting a trainer’s opinion on a high dollar pony for a child. I don’t know what did or did not happen and that is why it is in the courts.

We are in a free market economy. If these prices were completely out of the market Heritage wouldn’t be full.

So stop complaining about what you would or wouldn’t want to see on your invoice or implying that Heritage is doing unethical horse show medicating.

Bottom line is it is a free market and anyone can choose whom they would like to do business with or not.

[Mayaty02]

[QUOTE=searching12321;7019284]
First of all the horse show meds aren’t relevant to this discussion other than they showed up on an invoice.

The owner isn’t implying they were inappropriate. Most horses in this realm with the exception of FEI horses show on something. Do you take Advil or Tylenol if you’ve had a hard workout? There are many BNT who medicate ethically. Bute, dex, equioxx, etc are all legal and have valid reasons for being used. Doesn’t mean a kid can or can’t ride or that a horse is drugged. Equioxx for example is about $15/tube from the vet and you need to give it two days before you show to get a good blood level. So if you are showing for three days you would have five or six days of this medication provided you give it the last night of the show which most trainers do. So without any markup that would be $90 in equioxx alone. If you charged for dosing and a markup for buying it and keeping it in stock you could get to the $165 mark easily.

This lawsuit was about an owner trusting a trainer’s opinion on a high dollar pony for a child. I don’t know what did or did not happen and that is why it is in the courts.

We are in a free market economy. If these prices were completely out of the market Heritage wouldn’t be full.

So stop complaining about what you would or wouldn’t want to see on your invoice or implying that Heritage is doing unethical horse show medicating.

Bottom line is it is a free market and anyone can choose whom they would like to do business with or not.[/QUOTE]

Actually I believe she is alleging that the pony’s lameness was covered up by mysterious medications. Therefore, to me, the misc horse show meds are very relevant.

[doublesstable]

[QUOTE=searching12321;7019284]
First of all the horse show meds aren’t relevant to this discussion other than they showed up on an invoice.

The owner isn’t implying they were inappropriate. Most horses in this realm with the exception of FEI horses show on something. Do you take Advil or Tylenol if you’ve had a hard workout? There are many BNT who medicate ethically. Bute, dex, equioxx, etc are all legal and have valid reasons for being used. Doesn’t mean a kid can or can’t ride or that a horse is drugged. Equioxx for example is about $15/tube from the vet and you need to give it two days before you show to get a good blood level. So if you are showing for three days you would have five or six days of this medication provided you give it the last night of the show which most trainers do. So without any markup that would be $90 in equioxx alone. If you charged for dosing and a markup for buying it and keeping it in stock you could get to the $165 mark easily.

This lawsuit was about an owner trusting a trainer’s opinion on a high dollar pony for a child. I don’t know what did or did not happen and that is why it is in the courts.

We are in a free market economy. If these prices were completely out of the market Heritage wouldn’t be full.

So stop complaining about what you would or wouldn’t want to see on your invoice or implying that Heritage is doing unethical horse show medicating.

Bottom line is it is a free market and anyone can choose whom they would like to do business with or not.[/QUOTE]

So what gives here? What’s with the attitude?

Telling me what I can discuss on a BB saying something isn’t relevant where there has been much discussion is just weird. Especially when many other posters have commented about the HS Med costs as well as not to put the itemization on the billing. Besides - re-read the title of this thread “That pony lawsuit OMG you have to see those Heritage Invoices”.

And your darn tooting this has something to do with the pony owners complaint and getting an invoice with over 1,700.00 in one month for who knows what kind of medications.

And you’d better believe I would question my barn if I got a HS medication bill for that amount of what it was…

Edited to add - I review my invoices and and did not imply unethical anything; I would want to know what meds my horse is receiving and would be questioning an invoice which as the client have the right to know

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=Mayaty02;7019292]
Actually I believe she is alleging that the pony’s lameness was covered up by mysterious medications. Therefore, to me, the misc horse show meds are very relevant.[/QUOTE]

That is also my interpretation. The allegations include that Heritage covered up lameness so the pony could show.

[MyssMyst]

I’m willing to sit back and see how this one plays out. For all I know, the HS medications were wine/xanax for the barn staff…