Is it super common for 6 y/o ponies doing hunters to really get that many injections to stay sound and show? I know teenage GP jumpers that get less than that.
Not to dump on other lawyersâ work product, but it looks to me like both the complaint and the motion to dismiss have problems.
As mentioned above, this is the weirdest complaint/petition Iâve ever read, with the incredible amount of repetition, but that may be a quirk of NY practice, not the fault of the lawyer. That said, the complaint is not clear about some key points, like the exact legal relationship between Heritage/the trainer and the buyer, i.e., they were the buyerâs agent. It is that agency relationship that would, if the facts alleged were true, potentially give rise to liability for fraud or breach of fiduciary duty, which for some reason is not pled as a cause of action.
The complaint does not say that Heritage sold the pony to the buyer, but because it is unclear, the defendants could argue in the motion to dismiss that it did so and thereby confuse things.
As the motion to dismiss asserts, some of the causes of action asserted are claims that might only exist against the seller, not against the buyerâs agent. That is, some causes of action under UCC Article 2 (Uniform Commercial Code Article 2, regarding Sale of Goods â Horses are âgoodsâ under the law) would only apply to the seller. But, contrary to the motion to dismiss, that is not true of all the claims, some of which could be maintained against an agent if properly pled. And, while the motion to dismiss relies on the warranty claims as governed by the UCC, the counts asserted donât actually reference the UCC. There could be equivalent common law (non-statutory) causes of action under NY law for warranties by agents; I donât know.
Similarly, the complaint is unclear about the basis of the breach of contract claim â is the contract that was allegedly breached the sales contract or the agency contract (whether written or oral)? So that allowed the defendants to say it is a claim for breach of the sales contract to which the defendants are not parties. And it looks like the plaintiffâs lawyer just screwed up on Count 5, regarding alleged unfair trade practices, and cited the right NY statute in the heading but incorrectly cited the PA version of that law in the text. (Made the same mistake in Count 7 for that matter.)
Then again, Iâm not a NY lawyer and these causes of action and defenses could also be quirky under NY law.
My gut feeling is that these are all just sloppy and inartfully pled. But, like you Portia, I donât know NY practice. Hopefully it includes the right to file an amended complaint 
maybe the lawyer will read this thread and fill in the gaps/blanks some
[QUOTE=vxf111;7019306]
That is also my interpretation. The allegations include that Heritage covered up lameness so the pony could show.[/QUOTE]
Yes⊠I think it would just be something that happens if you got an invoice with 1,700 for HS meds in one month that would raise some kind of eyebrow 
My âattitudeâ comes from a bunch of people who donât know the entire story throwing blame etc onto a trainer. Like Heritage or not, this is their livelihood and bashing them on a public forum isnât kind or ethical.
Let things play out in the courts. Remember in this country, we are presumed innocent until PROVEN guilty.
[QUOTE=searching12321;7019374]
My âattitudeâ comes from a bunch of people who donât know the entire story throwing blame etc onto a trainer. Like Heritage or not, this is their livelihood and bashing them on a public forum isnât kind or ethical.
Let things play out in the courts. Remember in this country, we are presumed innocent until PROVEN guilty.[/QUOTE]
I am not blaming anyone. I am questioning the invoice. Heritage is a professional business in which they have clients. Having clients question charges is normal.
Sloppy was the word that came to my mind about the complaint, too.
As for discussing the invoices, Heritage, through its lawyers, made the decision to put the invoices in the public record. The folks at Heritage are certainly aware of the current focus of the USEF and its members on overuse and misuse of drugs and medications at shows, as shown by the USEF town hall on Monday. These are invoices from a BNT from some of the biggest show circuits in the country, which most of us donât get to see but are now in the public record. It may all be perfectly legitimate, but you canât really blame people for noting the amounts charged for unspecified âHS Medications.â
[QUOTE=searching12321;7019374]
My âattitudeâ comes from a bunch of people who donât know the entire story throwing blame etc onto a trainer. Like Heritage or not, this is their livelihood and bashing them on a public forum isnât kind or ethical.
Let things play out in the courts. Remember in this country, we are presumed innocent until PROVEN guilty.[/QUOTE]
I donât see anyone âbashingâ Heritage Farm. They are discussing a legal case, and the documentation related to it, that presents some interesting (and topical) aspects.
You seem a bit emotional⊠are you a young person? Relax.:yes: Iâm sure that everyone involved is capable of looking after themselves and that their problems wonât be exacerbated by a discussion on COTHâŠ
Here is the ponyâs show schedule for 1 year. I figure it must have jumped about 100 jumps or more per show for many, many weeks. Talk about WORK!
Now with dates for show start
Total number of shows between 1-25-2012 and 2-16-2013
Horse first appears at Jacksonville in 2012.
-
Winter A-Z 1-25-2012
8 classes, all Green Pony -
Ocala Premierâ9 classes 1-31-2012
6 Green
3 Pony Schooling -
Ocala Winter Classic (new rider and excellent results) 2-07-2012 (8 classes total)
6 Small GreenâChampion Small Green in the Championship Class
2 Schoolingâ1 DNP, 1 of 21 Green Pony -
Ocala Winter Festival 2-14-2012 (another new rider and a couple of classes with the first Ocala rider) (9 classes total)
6 Small Green-- Champion
3 schooling -
Ocala Tournament 2-28-2012 (same two ridersâone for Small and one for Small Green) (15 total classes)
6 classes as a small and doesnât make the Championship Class
Did not place in the Small Classic
7 classes as small green and is Reserve Champion in the Championship Class
Pony Hunter Classic DNP
two schooling classes with the second riderâDNP -
Ocala Winter Finals 3-6-2012 (one of the above two riders) (13 total classes)
8 classes as a Small and Reserve Champion in the Championship Class
7 classes in Small Green and Champion in the Championship Class -
Ocala Winter Celebration 3-12-2012 (14 classes total)
7 classes as a Small. Did not make the Championship Class (same rider as the Winter Finals)
7 classes as a Small Green, one with the Small rider, and six with the other rider at the Tournament. Reserve in the Championship Class
One schooling Pony class-8th
Pony is sold by Redfield Farms to Bibby Hill
- WEF 12 3-28-2012âDildabanian kid rides (5 total classes)
5 Small Green Classes. One 1st, one 2nd
Pony is sold to Dildabanians
-
Hunter Farms Spring Classic 4-25-2012 (6 classes)
7 Small Green Classes. Four 1sts, one second, and won the Championship class -
Old Salem Farm May 1 5-8-2012 (8 total classes)
6 Small Green Classes with 3 entries. Two firsts, two 3rds and one 2nd. Second in the Championship class
2 Schooling Pony Hunter classes (all sizes), 52 entries. DNP -
Old Salem Farm, May 2 5-15-2012 (7 total classes)
5 Small Green Classes with 5 entries each. One 2nd, one 3rd, one 4th, two 5ths
2 Pony schooling all sizesâ60+ entrants DNP -
HITS on the Hudson II 5-30-2-12 (17 total classes)
7 Small classes (15 to 18 entrants)
One 2nd, one 5th, two 6ths, one 7th and one 9th
7 Small/Medium Green classes (7 entrants except for one class with 8.
Three 1sts, one 2nd, one 6th and one 7th. Won the Championship class
3 Schooling-Small
24 entries, DNP
24 entries, 6th
12 entries, 4th
Pony Medal
20 entries, DNP -
HITS on the Hudson III 6-6-2012 (10 total classes)
6 Small Classes (19, 20 entrants)
one 3rd, one 4th, one 6th and 3 DNPs
Misc Small
WIHS Pony Medal
7th of 15
Schooling Small
DNP of 18
1 of 17
2nd of 18 in the Schooling Championship Class
USEF Pony Medal
4th of 17 -
Brandywine Valley Summer Series 6-27-2012 (6 total classes)
6 Small Classes (9-11 entrants
Three 1sts, one 2nd, one 7th and won the Championship Class
USEF Pony Medal
6th of 12 -
HITS on the Hudson IV 7-18-2012 (11 total classes)
6 Small classes (16, 17 entrants)
Two 5ths, one 6th, three DNPs
and 5 of 8 in one class
Misc Small
WIHS Medal DNP of 21
Schooling Small DNP of 22, DNP of 21, 3rd of 12
USEF Medal DNP of 18 -
HITS on the Hudson V 7-25-2012 (19 total classes)
6 Small classes
7 of 18, 4 of 21, DNP of 21, 7 of 16, 1 of 16, DNP of 8
7 Small Green classes
2 of 7, 1 of 7, 1 of 7, 1 of 6, 1 of 6, DNP of 4
1 in the Championship class
Misc
WIHS Medal 2 of 11
Schooling Pony, Small
DNP of 30, DNP of 31, 4 of 18
Green Pony Schooling
4 of 17, DNP of 12
USEF Pony Medal
1 of 22 -
New York Horse & Pony 8-01-2012 (9 total classes)
7 Small classes (5 entrants)
1 of 5, 2 of 5, 2 of 5, 3 of 5, 3 of 5, 3 of 5, 5 of 5
Misc
WIHS Medal
DNP of 9
USEF Pony Medal
7 of 11 -
Pony Finals 8-06-2012 (7 total classes)
Small Green classes
28 of 57, 9 of 57, 15 of 56
Overall Results
13 of 57
Misc.
Riders 10 and UnderâGreen Ponies
7 of 10
Small Green, Section B Model
DNP of 57
Small Green Sec. B, U/S
DNP of 57
Small Green Sec. B O/F
DNP of 57
Small Green, Sec. B
DNP of 57
Combined Model, U/S
16 of 57 -
Old Salem Overpeck, September 9-26-2012 98 total classes)
4 Small Classes
1 of 26, DNP of 26, 7 of 26, 1 of 26, 1 in Championship class
Green PonyâSmall/Medium 2 classes
DNP of 4, DNP of 4
Green PonyâSmall 2 classes
2 of 4, 3 of 4
Pony Hunter Classic
DNP of 48 -
SFHJA Annual Charity (Fla) 11-21-2012 (10 total classes)
6 Small classes
1 of 12, 2 of 12, 4 of 12, 8 of 12, 1 of 12, DNP of 12, 1 iin Championship Class
Pony Classic
DNP of 33
Misc
Schooling Pony (2 classes)
6 of 19, DNP of 15
WIHS Equitation
7 of 7
USEF Pony Medal
1 of 9
2013
-
ESP A-T Childrensâ Benefit 1-02-2013 7 total classes
6 Small Classes
3 of 18, DNP of 18, 1 of 18, 7 of 18, 1 of 18, 1 in Championship Class
Misc
SFHJA Pony Hunt Seat Medal
DNP of 1 entry. -
WEF 1 1-09-2013
6 Small classes
3 of 29, DNP of 29, 1 of 29, DNP of 29, DNP of 29, 2 in Championship Class -
WEF 2 1-16-2013
5 Small classes
2 of 26, DNP of 26, DNP of 26, DNP of 26, 2 of 26 -
WEF 4 1-30-2013
5 Small classes
2 of 17, 6 of 17, 1 of 17, DNP of 17, DNP of 17 -
WEF5 2-06-2013
5 Small
8 of 33, DNP of 33, 5 of 33, DNP of 33, DNP of 33 -
WEF 6 2-13-2013 (Last Show)
4 Small
DNP of 31 in 3, and DNP of 29 in one.
Comments?
Comments?
How high are the jumps and how many per course?
Without doing my homework here ⊠pony size vs rider weight and ability vs course height and number of jumps âŠ
I think it is beyond excessive. It is a horrid nightmare for the pony. I canât imagine many ponies being able to stand up to that type of regime for very long. Sorry.
VR, if you are going to be totalling up how many jumps and classes the pony endured, perhaps you should be aware that in a division there is no championship âclassâ. It is just points totalled from the division. At some of those shows one of the classes would be a model, and one an under saddle, not too much jumping involved there. Jumps are 2â3, 8 jumps avg per course. 2â3 is not really a gargantuan effort for a pony.They are also showing on manicured footing.
What would have been a better evaluation would be to attach dates to those shows. There are pretty long breaks between some of those shows.
The SFHJA show is at Thanksgiving. Pretty sure that the ESP AT show isnât until the end of January. Thats not so bad. Shown in September, then not again until Thanksgiving?? I donât think that is excessive. Pony Finals is early August, then not shown again until SeptemberâŠnot a bad gig for a pony. looks like pony showed 20 times in one year. Less than twice a month.
The ponies start showing at WEF on Friday afternoon. Smalls are done Sunday morning. Pony gets hacked, etc maybe one lesson until Friday again.It is true that during WEF most horses work pretty hard. As an aside, I am pretty sure that they changed trainers either right before WEF, or during. So the every week showing at WEF may not have been the call of the defendants.
Ponies kept in good health often have VERY long careers, into their twenties showing is not unusual. Most are a good percentage Welsh, a very hearty breed once used to carry large men down into coal mines. They are not delicate types.
In my non vet opinion, it is too many for this 6 year old pony with all the meds it is on. Some may be preventative but thatâs a damn awful lot for a young, healthy pony with no known soundness issue.
Unfortunately for the ponies, one of the main goals their owners have is to get them into indoors/Devon. This means the total points for your best 15 shows. Because of overzealous pony moms and their trainers that want their ponies into Devon and indoors some of the ponies show almost every week. The number of points to get a pony into Devon is often double that to get, say a junior hunter in, and triple some divisions.
Looking at that schedule again, it looks like the pony had a more believable schedule prior to when i believe the trainer switch occurred. Looks like they were pushing to get into Devon which if they thought pony had foot problems may have accelerated the problem.
Most AA show barns put all their horses on Adequan, Legend etc as preventative maintenance. Seeing that a pony was on that doesnât necessarily indicate a problem. Its pretty typical for many barns.
And for those of you that think this is a taxing schedule for a pony with foot problems you left one the âpreparation.â Hours longing then, an adult rider rides and jumps him, and then another kid might ride him before the show.
to those who think maybe itâs not a taxing schedule and that 2â3" is not a big effort for a small⊠well it can be. 2â3" is in fact a pretty big jump for a small pony adding in the division striding which is pretty forward, and being in a big program like that Iâm sure it had alot of adult and pony jock pro rides. Yes sure I would expect that a pony may not be able to hold up to that schedule. Why do you see so many ponies who have to âstep downâ to childrenâs after a year or two doing the division. I know MANY ponies who are so burned out from doing the division they become stoppers, even at the lower heights.
All that being said, itâs kinda irrelevant. The pony showed a pretty typical big barn show schedule⊠and the plaintiff is alleging that the pony has a pre-existing condition, not that it was caused by this schedule.
[QUOTE=leyla25;7019540]
And for those of you that think this is a taxing schedule for a pony with foot problems you left one the âpreparation.â Hours longing then, an adult rider rides and jumps him, and then another kid might ride him before the show.[/QUOTE]
Though that may be true, has to be called speculation I think. Some ponies get lunged, some donât. Some get ridden frequently, some donât.
If one is going to say that participating in 6 jumping classes spread out over three days is excessive, then you would have to say that the current protocol and structure of divisions at todayâs horse shows is excessive in general. You can certainly say that if you want, but you would have to change the whole structure of competition if you feel that way.
@May, I donât think there is an excessive amout of ponies that do a couple of years of the real ponies then step down to the childrens. Most that Iâve seen do that were just never competitive enough to begin with in the real division and their people finally get the message. They get tired of never getting a jog. Certainly older ponies step down to the childrens, just like old jumpers step down to the low jumpers or the equitation. I have found that the majority of ponies are pretty natural jumpers and 2â3" is not a big deal to them. Just my experience.
For those that think 20 shows a year for a pony hunter is excessive, how many shows do you think is acceptable to stay within your guidelines of horse care?
Chunky no speculation in my part. I know from having ridden/worked in the specific barn discussed here that no pony leaves the barn to show without âits preparationâ it is not done. A pro or working student rides it and then a kid. And all get lunged.
[QUOTE=chunky munky;7019552]
@May, I donât think there is an excessive amout of ponies that do a couple of years of the real ponies then step down to the childrens. Most that Iâve seen do that were just never competitive enough to begin with in the real division and their people finally get the message. They get tired of never getting a jog. Certainly older ponies step down to the childrens, just like old jumpers step down to the low jumpers or the equitation. I have found that the majority of ponies are pretty natural jumpers and 2â3" is not a big deal to them. Just my experience.[/QUOTE]
And my experience is different, and in fact most of the ponies I know who are stepping down were winners. In fact⊠one that I know of who burned out was one of the top in the country and was only 8 when it flamed out. But again, no reason to really argue the point, it was a division pony doing a division schedule⊠but the allegation was the pony has a pre-existing condition that caused the lameness, not the heavy schedule.
I expect what you are saying is true but I can assure you that this is not true in all show barns, particularly with the seasoned ponies. Many are preserved carefully with alternative methods of preparation that do not include lunging or anything much more than light hacks that are not as hard on them.
My guess is the pony in question was pressed pretty hard because the owner having claimed it was an investment was vested in having it win a lot in order to increase its value. That mentality and all that goes with it can be hard on a pony for sure.
I rode on the A circuit for many (recent) years and never once drugged a horse or pony. Why do people feel the need to accept âhorse show medicationâ when, in reality, no horse really needs any ânormalâ meds specifically for horse shows unless you are drugging the animal to compete
