That pony lawsuit...OMG you have to see those Heritage Invoices

[FineAlready]

[QUOTE=Jumphigh83;7020323]
Billable hours.[/QUOTE]

If you mean that it would take LESS time to draft the complaint as it was actually filed than to plead it less sloppily, you are right. But if you are implying that the complaint as filed was redundant to create more billable hours for the attorney, you are wrong. It takes a lot more time to produce a clear, concise document than it does to produce the type of document that was filed.

I’m hesitant to judge the complaint because I don’t know what NY pleading requirements are like, and also because we don’t know what kind of time or information constraints the attorney was dealing with. When I read it (when it was first filed), my sense was that it would get the job done and that it was not the worst complaint I had ever read in my life. It’s sloppy, for sure, but there are worse things than sloppy when it comes to complaints.

[Portia]

[QUOTE=chunky munky;7019522]
Unfortunately for the ponies, one of the main goals their owners have is to get them into indoors/Devon. This means the total points for your best 15 shows. Because of overzealous pony moms and their trainers that want their ponies into Devon and indoors some of the ponies show almost every week. The number of points to get a pony into Devon is often double that to get, say a junior hunter in, and triple some divisions.[/QUOTE]

Which is exactly what Billy Maroney and David O’C were talking about at the USEF town hall the other evening. Do we have to fundamentally change the basic way we do things in our sport(s) to protect our horses?

For example, should hunters change to an X number of scores above Y formula to qualify, like dressage uses for its championships? We can probably all agree that would be the best thing for our horses and ponies, but doing away with points chasing would seriously impact the pocketbooks of many trainers and show managers. Why be on the road for 30 weeks + a year when horses can get qualified in 5-10 shows? So it would be an extremely uphill battle to make that change, but it may come to that.

[Thoroughbred1201]

[QUOTE=FineAlready;7020347]
What struck me about the bills is that many things ARE spelled out (Adequan, Legend, Depo, even Quiessance), which makes the “HS Medication” charges for some pretty high amounts even more suspicious and/or confusing. It seems pretty fair to infer that the “HS Medications” are something other than the specifically itemized and charged items…so…what are they? Legal limits of bute, banamine, even dex do not cost what they are charging…even multiplied by several horses…so…what DOES cost that much? (I honestly don’t know.)
.[/QUOTE]

What absolutely blew me away was the first time I heard that Horse Show meds were a line item on a trainer’s bill at all. When I was showing, my trainer would pick up what was needed for each horse from the local vet clinic, and we were billed individually by the clinic - itemized down to the last detail. And usually, the bute (or banimine) lived in each individuals tack trunk - or if it was in a med trunk, it was labelled by horse - by the vet clinic and a sharpie marker.

When a friend told me she was billed horse show meds, my first thought was ‘that’s pretty blatent!’ Not that abuses couldn’t occur the other way, of course. Just that the trainer would have had to eat the costs!

I have to laugh though, A Saddlebred trainer and I were talking one day (he’s been hauling for the big H/J barns) that when he hauls H/Js, all the trainer lug around 1 (or 2) custom made medication trunks. The saddlebred trainers don’t have the med trunks, but they do generally have a custom made bar in the stables colors made by the trunk companies! Drugs for the horse, or depressants for the riders? Depends on the disicplines, LOL!

[Kenike]

[QUOTE=chunky munky;7020043]

@Lori, as we are talking here about a small pony I think you will be hard pressed to find much thoroughbred in those.[/QUOTE]

Don’t be too sure about that.

[chunky_munky]

There are always exceptions to everything, but i would bet if we looked at the pedigrees of all the small ponies that showed at Devon we would find fewer than 10% that had a pure TB sire or dam that didn’t just happen to end up small by being a runt, or some other complication for lack of a better word. Mediums and larges? Sure. I live in VA pony country and look at pedigrees quite a lot. I don’t think too many breeders will use a pure TB mare or sire if thedy are trying to get a small. It may happen by accident, but not usually what they are breeding for if using a TB

[Zanny]

If the pony owner has the x-rays and other documentation somebody is going to have a bad day in court. I don’t think this would go to court if she does have that documentation. Whoever would probably settle. She’s going for punitive damages, treble, and things like fraud. Which can get ugly if it is conspiracy to commit fraud. The vet has asked for all documentation and timelines. So far, the complaint/answers are part of discovering who did what and who has what. This could drag out for a very long time. The barn did receive commission for the pony. I am not sure how that works in NY law, but to me it says they were buyer/agent involved even if they did not sign the bill of sale. The owner is saying it was a known fact amongst everybody it was a short term investment pony. Barns being barns I’m sure she’ll have more than enough witnesses. Good to see the going rates for showing and care. But it will be nothing compared to the legal fees, time, and heartache.

[Limerick]

I’ve puzzled and puzzled and now my puzzler is sore…why would Heritage release these invoices?? It is clear that the pony had special shoeing instructions and very pricey, unnamed show meds…not normal for a six year old pony. Bet if the farrier is
questioned; he was told from the get go to shoe for a special needs pony. And if four vets have stated they see the rotation on the pre-purchase X-rays, IMHO this is slam dunk for the plaintiff.

[Kenike]

Maybe not full xx on either side up front on a small, but there’s a high percentage in many. That’s how they have become so refined. I don’t know if that’s the case with this pony as I haven’t looked at his pedigree (I’m not that concerned with it).

There ARE breeders who strive to keep those Welsh lines in the smalls as close to the hardy ponies who roam(ed) the hills of Wales as they can…but they’re often seen as not dainty enough for today’s hunter ring. No, I am not confusing them with section C or D ponies. Welsh ponies bred for the hunter ring are my entire equine world right now, and have been for the past 7 years.

I will say I know this particular pony’s schedule is typical for the top echelon, but I also admit that I hate seeing it. The ponies I work with aren’t even backed until 4 or 5, depending on mental maturity. They shouldn’t be burned out or broke down by 6-8…but many are. It’s sad to see them go from happy to work to obviously not having fun. Especially if (emphasis on that if) they have coffin rotation and are still forced to go, go, go.

[chunky_munky]

Frankly we’ve seen a lot more imported ponies in the ring in the last decade. German Riding ponie, British Riding ponies, etc. Many of those are a real mix ofmany things. Most of the german ponies I’ve had and known have more Arabian in them than TB. But most of those are mediums and larges. I think that the welsh breed itself has refined the B sections to be mostly very desirable as the hunter types we see in the ring today. Most of the A’s do not have the movement type ( and yes i know there are some good moving A’s, so don’t feel that you all need to post about the one you had that won the hack at indoors three times) Most of this is generalization-there are always exceptions.

[Zanny]

I am in OMG land. It could be over a million plus if it goes her way. Seems like she has no problem paying lawyers and seeing it through. What person on a jury is going to side with the “I sold you a lame horse” defendants?

They are all going to produce a lot of documentation if this keeps going. Not sure if it will all be made public.

[Grover]

Just feel the need to point out something -

The pony in question is “Joey” and actually has the LOWEST shoeing charges of all the horses on the invoices.

[RedMare01]

I thought the pony in question was Sports Talk, aka Sporty?

[Limerick]

[QUOTE=RedMare01;7020827]
I thought the pony in question was Sports Talk, aka Sporty?[/QUOTE]
The plaintiff did call him Joey. I stand corrected-thought his were the extra pricey farrier bills. Nevertheless, I would want to know what farrier was told when he shod him. If four vets have looked at the pre-purchase X-rays and saw the rotation, I still believe the plaintiff has a solid case. The vets can be asked what is their usual protocol on a pre purchase when a rotation is seen in a six year old hunter pony…

[Janeway]

I thought it was Sporty too, as per the legal documents, but then I read Mrs. Dildabanian’s comments on Facebook and she was referencing “Joey”.

[lrp1106]

I’m not blown away by the board and training fees - typical for a top show barn. However the itemization of some items and drugs and not others is very sketchy. I don’t know if this is typical for Heritage or if they break it down for some clients and not others, but “HS Meds” is… Very vague. Some items are probably upcharged - the nameplates??? I think I could nameplate everything in my house and still not spend $700…

I don’t know if these invoices will reflect well on Heritage. Even though they’re in Westchester, some of these invoices can be manipulated to reflect a greedy, money-hungry defendant…

[chunky_munky]

Most upper level barns that order all your stuff for you have a surcharge. Not sure that theirs is excessive, but it is not an uncommon practice. They order it (usually because the client doesn’t have a clue about sizes, colors or keeping everythin uniform in the barn) barn pays for it and gets paid by the customer plus some for the trouble and fronting the money and the time it takes to do it. They pay a salary to someone to do all that kind of stuff i am sure. Don’t think it is exactly criminal to have a surcharge.

[Peggy]

Of all the charges the one I found the most puzzling was for three wraps. How many legs does the pony have? I suppose it could be for three sets of wraps but it didn’t seem like enough money, given the cost of some of the other supplies.

[Limerick]

[QUOTE=lrp1106;7020849]
I’m not blown away by the board and training fees - typical for a top show barn. However the itemization of some items and drugs and not others is very sketchy. I don’t know if this is typical for Heritage or if they break it down for some clients and not others, but “HS Meds” is… Very vague. Some items are probably upcharged - the nameplates??? I think I could nameplate everything in my house and still not spend $700…

I don’t know if these invoices will reflect well on Heritage. Even though they’re in Westchester, some of these invoices can be manipulated to reflect a greedy, money-hungry defendant…[/QUOTE]
Bad timing too what with USEF trying to clean up hunters and the fact Heritage has their grooms sign the entry forms…looks very shady. I know someone is going to point out that Heritage has never had a drug infraction. Nevertheless, the mystery, pricey meds aren’t going to be fun to explain/justify IMHO. If you are going to take the time to itemize wormers and Quiessence, why not list the horse show meds too??

[Peggy]

[QUOTE=Limerick;7020879]
Bad timing too what with USEF trying to clean up hunters and the fact Heritage has their grooms sign the entry forms…looks very shady. I know someone is going to point out that Heritage has never had a drug infraction. Nevertheless, the mystery, pricey meds aren’t going to be fun to explain/justify IMHO. If you are going to take the time to itemize wormers and Quiessence, why not list the horse show meds too??[/QUOTE]
(playing Devil’s Advocate) Because you don’t want to let others in on your pharmaceutical secrets?

[Zanny]

Sorry to not read through everything, but where is stated 4 vets seeing the PPE?