That pony lawsuit...OMG you have to see those Heritage Invoices

[Portia]

On insurance, while I certainly don’t know for sure, it is likely that the owner did not have loss of use insurance on the pony. If they did, the insurer would have been very picky about binding coverage and would have required copies of the radiographs from the PPE. The owner does not mention any insurance in the complaint, and if the insurer had paid on a loss of use claim, it would have subrogation rights to proceeds from the suit (the right to get their money back from any judgment or settlement). Presumably the pony had mortality and major medical, like most equine policies.

Looking at the policies on my horses, they do not have an affirmative provision requiring that only vets can administer medications. Instead, the policies exclude coverage for any loss caused by a medication or inoculation unless it was administered by or at the direction of a licensed vet and the vet certifies it was administered for preventative purposes or required by accident, injury, illness, or disease. So, you can give the horse the medication without a vet, but if it causes a problem, you may not have coverage.

[NinaL_aka_Chrissy]

[QUOTE=Groro;7032878]
I haven’t seen anyone mention horse insurance. Surely if a pony cost $175,000, it would be insured! Any insurance policy I have ever seen says that all medications must be administered by a licensed veterinarian. Maybe that is why the drugs cost so much, the vet was giving them! That included vaccinations. Perhaps the insurance companies need to get involved here if “everyone” in the industry is medicating these show horses.[/QUOTE]

I believe the terminology is usually under the Guidance of a veterinarian. Which means you can give the animal medication but it has to be ordered by the vet. Then again, the vets who service these barns probably write a script for a big communal bottle or sell the barn a big communal bottle. A very fast and loose interpretation of the doctor/patient relationship. But that is irrelevant here - the pony is still alive and even if they choose to continue the mortaliity insurance it is significantly less than the purchase price and will exclude laminitis as a pre-existing condition.

[Zanny]

I asked about insurance earlier in the thread. In the vet’s answer is a request for insurance information and any amounts paid.

[Ghazzu]

[QUOTE=NinaL aka Chrissy;7033315]
Then again, the vets who service these barns probably write a script for a big communal bottle or sell the barn a big communal bottle. A very fast and loose interpretation of the doctor/patient relationship. [/QUOTE]

Which might well not hold up if push came to shove.

I made an inquiry to the state board in my state (MA), and was told emphatically that dispensing a bottle of injectable medicine or a bulk container of oral medication (for example, antibiotics) to be used “communally” would land a DVM in deep doo-doo if the board found out about it.

However, the only way the board would find out, in general, would be if the client complained…

[whatsinaname]

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;7033681]
Which might well not hold up if push came to shove.

I made an inquiry to the state board in my state (MA), and was told emphatically that dispensing a bottle of injectable medicine or a bulk container of oral medication (for example, antibiotics) to be used “communally” would land a DVM in deep doo-doo if the board found out about it.

However, the only way the board would find out, in general, would be if the client complained…[/QUOTE]

Many barns do have a communal bottle of meds, X, Y and Z. Many also do ask the vet if it is alright to administer prior to administering.

I for one would be upset if my show barn didn’t have certain meds on hand in the event of an emergency, like banamine or ace.

I would doubt that trainers are calling vets to see if they can administer bute but if a horse is thrashing in his stall, a quick call to the vet to get an OK to give him some IV banamine is pretty standard procedure until the vet can get there. Ditto in the event a horse spikes a fever after hours and the vet says to put them on antibiotics until they can get there in the morning, providing it isn’t an emergency situation.

Remember many of the trainers have been doing this a long time and are well-versed with common illnesses etc and horses.

It also covers the trainer in the event the horse has to go to surgery or an insurance claim needs to be filed. No one wants to be on the other end of an insurance claim being denied on a top dollar horse for meds they gave the horse.

[mvp]

whatsinaname, you are asking a lot of your trainers. Being “upset” if they don’t have prescription drugs on hand and are willing to dispense them? You are publicly stating that you expect your pros to break the law.

I don’t do that with the people I work with.

[NinaL_aka_Chrissy]

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;7033681]
Which might well not hold up if push came to shove.

I made an inquiry to the state board in my state (MA), and was told emphatically that dispensing a bottle of injectable medicine or a bulk container of oral medication (for example, antibiotics) to be used “communally” would land a DVM in deep doo-doo if the board found out about it.

However, the only way the board would find out, in general, would be if the client complained…[/QUOTE]

Or, if the insurance company complained.

I agree with you. I am not saying it is right. But there are some vets out there that will probably not pass the smell test which is why I am glad that the USEF is talking about making the vet responsible, too, for drug infractions. May make them think twice about dispensing that big bottle of medication. Although, I will say that my vet, who is pretty scrupulous, will dispense bottles of Banamine, SMZs to a barn.

[Jeito]

I propose a new reality show called “Emperor’s New Clothes.” Because many barns do provide “communal” drugs, and most vets okay it. I’m not saying that’s right, but it’s the way it works. Maybe we need to find a way to make the rules conform to the practice, or vice versa.

[Soaponarope]

Money spent should be an issue

[QUOTE=leyla25;7032763]
This is the best ! except there isn’t much of ethics in the horseshow world especially in the top so I doubt if she will find resolution or win this case.[/QUOTE]

I have really been thinking about this case and the discussion. Would I spend the money on the coolers if I had it? I would be very, very tempted. Of course everyone is entitled to spend their money as they wish (and I’m sort of pleased that anyone who makes textiles like Clothes Horse is getting paid well - at least they have a skill and they are made in America right?). However, at a certain point particularly in the children’s divisions, it’s not a sport anymore, it’s something else, a privilege, a spectacle of the Sun King, a Sofia Coppola movie. When you get into subjective judging in eq or hunters is where it really gets ugly. Those who are known because they have the right cooler and the right trainer are often famous for being famous; they have a significant advantage. That’s not fair. And these are children who are learning much, much more than how - or how not - to ride. So I have to say that this case is about much more than the x-rays. In fact, I would say that the poor founder pony, the coolers, and the drugs are all linked an we should all be concerned. It’s enough to send one right to the jumper ring:(

[Ghazzu]

[QUOTE=whatsinaname;7033840]
Many barns do have a communal bottle of meds, X, Y and Z. Many also do ask the vet if it is alright to administer prior to administering.

I for one would be upset if my show barn didn’t have certain meds on hand in the event of an emergency, like banamine or ace.

I would doubt that trainers are calling vets to see if they can administer bute but if a horse is thrashing in his stall, a quick call to the vet to get an OK to give him some IV banamine is pretty standard procedure until the vet can get there. Ditto in the event a horse spikes a fever after hours and the vet says to put them on antibiotics until they can get there in the morning, providing it isn’t an emergency situation.

Remember many of the trainers have been doing this a long time and are well-versed with common illnesses etc and horses.

It also covers the trainer in the event the horse has to go to surgery or an insurance claim needs to be filed. No one wants to be on the other end of an insurance claim being denied on a top dollar horse for meds they gave the horse.[/QUOTE]

I don’t care how knowledgeable a trainer is, the board of registration is the one who sets the rules.

And in my state, they’ve come down hard on more than one DVM who left a bottle of prescription medication with a pet shop in case there was a need for it before the DVM could see the animal. It’s an entirely analogous situation, the only difference being that, since pet shops are subject to inspection, the presence of the medication was reported to the board.

Is what you have described common practice? Of course. But it isn’t technically “legal” in many places, and in the event of a lawsuit/insurance claim/etc., any lawyer worth their salt will point that out.

[eqsiu]

I haven’t read all the posts, but why is the barn buying the tack and such? shouldn’t the owners do that themselves? and pay the vet and farrier directly? At least that was you know there’s no middle man mark up.

[quietann]

[QUOTE=eqsiu;7038537]
I haven’t read all the posts, but why is the barn buying the tack and such? shouldn’t the owners do that themselves? and pay the vet and farrier directly? At least that was you know there’s no middle man mark up.[/QUOTE]

Search this forum, and you’ll see that at the really Big Name H/J barns, this is the norm. The horse is completely managed by the barn; all the rider does is show up and ride. Some barns will not LET you have your own vet or farrier. This seems to also be true at a lot of breed-show focused barns.

Mark-ups are part of the package.

I haven’t seen anything quite like this in dressage barns. Maybe it’s because dressage riders tend to be a bit older and lot more fussy? :lol:

[eqsiu]

[QUOTE=quietann;7038564]
Search this forum, and you’ll see that at the really Big Name H/J barns, this is the norm. The horse is completely managed by the barn; all the rider does is show up and ride. Some barns will not LET you have your own vet or farrier. This seems to also be true at a lot of breed-show focused barns.

Mark-ups are part of the package.

I haven’t seen anything quite like this in dressage barns. Maybe it’s because dressage riders tend to be a bit older and lot more fussy? :lol:[/QUOTE]

Grew up on Pony Club and eventing. First thing you learn is how to tack up yourself. My barn is an eventing barn, but the IHSA team rides there and some of the team girls are, for lack of a better word, amazing. I am shocked by how little they know given how much “experience” they have.

And let’s face it. Trusting your trainer is one thing. Blind trust is another.

[eqsiu]

[QUOTE=CBoylen;7019822]
That’s a very typical show schedule. Quite a few weeks off and 20 shows a year.[/QUOTE]

There was a semi to-do in eventing land over last year’s Novice horse of the year. 16 events at 3’ where you ride 3 phases each class. Now, that’s what, like one division per weekend at a hunter show? I realize that the terrain is different, but it’s interesting to see what different disciplines think “normal” show schedules are.

[Phototoxicity]

This might have been mentioned, but who on earth is paying $350 for one fly sheet?! I hope its diamond encrusted and wards fly’s off from a 3 mile radius for that kind of money.

[trubandloki]

I wish people would read the thread instead of just posting that they were not willing to read the thread and want to bring up a topic that has already been discussed several times.

[eqsiu]

[QUOTE=Phototoxicity;7038615]
This might have been mentioned, but who on earth is paying $350 for one fly sheet?! I hope its diamond encrusted and wards fly’s off from a 3 mile radius for that kind of money.[/QUOTE]

The fancy custom color embroidered ones, probably. I looked at Triple Crown prices a year or so ago and went :eek: at the price to get a green irish knit sheet.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=eqsiu;7038537]
I haven’t read all the posts, but why is the barn buying the tack and such? shouldn’t the owners do that themselves? and pay the vet and farrier directly? At least that was you know there’s no middle man mark up.[/QUOTE]

Don’t assume there’s anything (too) unfair to the client going on in the invoices for equipment. You need to learn the biz or read the posts that explain it.

Many clients don’t know what stuff or size their horse needs. Many don’t know what to buy and would have to spend a lot of time learning about that. They either can’t do that or don’t want to. Maybe they think the prices for equipment plus the expertise in choosing it plus the convenience factor is fair. Maybe these clients are getting ripped off. Maybe they care, maybe they don’t.

[FineAlready]

[QUOTE=trubandloki;7038621]
I wish people would read the thread instead of just posting that they were not willing to read the thread and want to bring up a topic that has already been discussed several times.[/QUOTE]

I didn’t read the whole thread, so this may have been mentioned, but wouldn’t the x-rays have showed the rotation? Why isn’t the vet being sued? Why isn’t the pony being sued? This seems like his fault, really.

[vxf111]

Why not sure god for making ponies in the first place?