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That pony lawsuit...OMG you have to see those Heritage Invoices

Hunter/Jumper
#141

[QUOTE=chunky munky;7018449]
Would that get the toe too, where it seems rotators seem to have significant pain? And would an abaxial sesamoid block not cause significant visual swelling of the ankle? I would think that would be tough to hide. Plus you would need to do it every day the thing went to the ring…unlikely.
By the way unless there is something i never heard of, any substance i know of to block a horse isn’t expensive.[/QUOTE]

It should.
Depending upon what was injected, there might or might not be noticeable swelling.
Most, if not all, substances used to block feet are D&M violations.
I expect the cost of the more exotic (read “untestable”) medications would be high.

Mind you, I’m not saying that was the case with this pony.

My position on the entire issue of better ribbons through chemistry is pretty well-known on this bb, though, I expect.

Any horse or pony requiring medical assistance in that price bracket is probably not fit to be competing, IMHO. Of course, that might depend on what one defines as “required”.

#142

[QUOTE=War Admiral;7017775]

Don’t be intimidated by the money factor. Reality is, most of these people don’t ride that well. Why else do you think the whole mag thing got started? Why else do you think Heritage is billing out mysterious line items like “Supplies” and “HS Meds”?[/QUOTE]

Agree. The truth is, the “top” ($) levels of the sport are cultivating some pretty awful riding, training, and horsemanship in general. This is not just a “they have $ and we don’t problem.” This is an “our industry is in deep do-doo” problem.

Reflective of American culture at large, really.

#143

I don’t have a dog in this fight but I was struck by how consistent, professional, and complete the invoices are. It’s not our place to judge whether its “worth it” or whether “that’s ridiculous”, etc regarding their fees. This is a business that is top in it’s field, catering to high end clients competing at the top level of the sport.

Board price is really a function of location and amenities. In that area of the country- yep, that looks about right. Training for the top team in the business? Sure, that looks about right. Day care at $100 per day- not too bad. I charge a supply fee myself. The supply fee pays for the shampoo, fly spray, ear plugs, extra saddle pads, towels, poultice, ice, etc, etc, etc that we buy for every single show. I thought the shipping fees looked reasonable.

Many training businesses such as this don’t itemize invoices , or don’t invoice regularly. These folks look like they run their business- like a business.

#144

[QUOTE=Isabeau Z Solace;7018512]
Agree. The truth is, the “top” ($) levels of the sport are cultivating some pretty awful riding, training, and horsemanship in general. This is not just a “they have $ and we don’t problem.” This is an “our industry is in deep do-doo” problem.

Reflective of American culture at large, really.[/QUOTE]

Mentioned this on another thread, look at what happened today in baseball. Not that it’s a huge surprise but, sad reflexion on organized sports across the board.

#145

[QUOTE=mvp;7018487]
Are we talking about the same lawsuit?

The one about a PPE not doing the job for a client isn’t a silly cause IMO.[/QUOTE]

A PPE not doing the job is one thing, suing someone for selling you a botched pony when you actually bought it from someone else is. That’s the part I don’t understand, and yes, I find silly and a waste of time

#146

[QUOTE=War Admiral;7017913]
Plenty of names mentioned are BFFs with Our Friend Maggie, so let’s get real and cut the cr*p, and if those riders really want to be perceived as the best, maybe they better have a very frank discussion with their trainers.[/QUOTE]

Call me blonde if you want, but what the heck does “Our Friend Maggie” mean? I have never seen that expression before.

It has been an interesting discussion so far. Hope it stays civil :yes:

and add me as someone is wants to know what a $3500 Meridien stall is…

#147

If you hire an agent to procure a horse for you even if they don’t buy it first themselves, you’ve hired a person who has certain legal duties towards you. If they breach those duties, they can be sued for their own omissions and commissions. It’s really very simple. They had a job to do for you and they botched it.

[QUOTE=comingback;7018532]
A PPE not doing the job is one thing, suing someone for selling you a botched pony when you actually bought it from someone else is. That’s the part I don’t understand, and yes, I find silly and a waste of time[/QUOTE]

#148

Really, for a top program (and I say this as someone financially improbable to ever be in one), none of those charges seem out of line to me, except for the “HS Meds” ones. The nit-picky things, like box fans and buying 3 wraps instead of 4, seem silly at this level, and small potatoes.

But I do have to wonder, when meds like Adequan, Legend, Depo, Gastroguard, SMZs, Gentocin and even Quiessence are broken out separately, what those other meds could be to run even $600 a month on a horse who’s sound enough to be competing with the kind of regularity those were. Even a months supply of bute, banamine, and robaxin all together wouldn’t be that much, and I’d think something like massage/chiro treatments would be billed as a separate item, not as a “med.”

Presumably these were released to counter the idea that the client was a beginner who didn’t know how the program worked, as they’d obviously spent months as part of it?

#149

I assume it’s magnesium.

#150

[QUOTE=comingback;7018532]
A PPE not doing the job is one thing, suing someone for selling you a botched pony when you actually bought it from someone else is. That’s the part I don’t understand, and yes, I find silly and a waste of time[/QUOTE]

If you read the complaint, you’ll see that the plaintiff is unhappy with Heritage Farm and the trainer involved and the vet who did the PPE because their job was to advise their client about buying the pony.

Sellers get to represent their goods however they with-- good, bad or ugly. The PPE done by experts you hired and therefore “on your side” were the gate-keepers who didn’t let a dishonest seller fool you.

So the “blame” for the botched pony doesn’t lie with the seller precisely because the PPE convention exists.

#151

I was looking at the “Credits” sections, and noticed a lesson was $250!!! Is that normal with a BNT? The most I have ever payed for a lesson was $90 and that fee seems more like a clinic…

Some of the charges seem expected, but I still can’t imagine spending $50,000+ on my horses even if it was for more than one. At some point it is like they’re just paying for the popularity that comes with showing on the big AA circuit.

And I know she is little, but can her mother really justify giving the ponies Adequan, Legend, Depo Provera…and the list goes on. Is it really normal for a show horse to be getting so many medications/injections with a BNT? My horse is just about to start Adequan but that is it! And he was previously a 130+ jumper before I bought him so I understand its use. But in a 6 year old pony. Maybe I’m mistaken, but it seems a bit ridiculous to me.

#152

You cannot compare prices in dancing to horse showing. No way, no how. But thanks for trying, again…

#153

[QUOTE=mvp;7018594]
If you read the complaint, you’ll see that the plaintiff is unhappy with Heritage Farm and the trainer involved and the vet who did the PPE because their job was to advise their client about buying the pony.

Sellers get to represent their goods however they with-- good, bad or ugly. The PPE done by experts you hired and therefore “on your side” were the gate-keepers who didn’t let a dishonest seller fool you.

So the “blame” for the botched pony doesn’t lie with the seller precisely because the PPE convention exists.[/QUOTE]

I did read the complaint, and I read the responses to the complaint. I don’t disagree that acting as an agent gives you certain responsibilities to your client. However, it just doesn’t seem like she has legit proof/law to substantiate this.

I am not saying I am right or wrong. I am not a lawyer so I could be missing something in all the legal-ese. I’m just saying my interpretation of the response to the complaint is such that it doesn’t seem she has a case. Of course I guess that is the job of the defending lawyers to cast that doubt. Again…my lay person interpretation.

The cynical side of me also calls BS on having this pony for that long (medications/blocking/etc), having it become unridable, and then saying the vet performing the PPE knew about the pre-existing condition and therefore is responsible. How is she going to prove that? Did I miss where she was able to get previous x-rays and such that were taken prior to her buying the pony and having her own PPE done? I’ll take it back if you can show me where it is documented that such report(s) exist.

Finally…why isn’t the original owner involved in this in any way? Aren’t the laws in place to help protect buyers from dishonest sellers regardless of who the agent is?

Bottom line, yes, an agent must represent you in your transaction, good, bad, and/or ugly. But to me, this just seems like sour grapes over a pony that turned out to be a bad investment and now she wants someone to pay. The fact that she considers a horse (or pony in this case) an “investment” speaks volumes in my opinion. How many people have had their “investments” pan out vs. going dead lame?

Just my opinion…I’ll zip up my flame suit if need be :smiley:

#154

[QUOTE=comingback;7018619]
I did read the complaint, and I read the responses to the complaint. I don’t disagree that acting as an agent gives you certain responsibilities to your client. However, it just doesn’t seem like she has legit proof/law to substantiate this.

I am not saying I am right or wrong. I am not a lawyer so I could be missing something in all the legal-ese. I’m just saying my interpretation of the response to the complaint is such that it doesn’t seem she has a case. Of course I guess that is the job of the defending lawyers to cast that doubt. Again…my lay person interpretation.

The cynical side of me also calls BS on having this pony for that long (medications/blocking/etc), having it become unridable, and then saying the vet performing the PPE knew about the pre-existing condition and therefore is responsible. How is she going to prove that? Did I miss where she was able to get previous x-rays and such that were taken prior to her buying the pony and having her own PPE done? I’ll take it back if you can show me where it is documented that such report(s) exist.

Finally…why isn’t the original owner involved in this in any way?

Bottom line, yes, an agent must represent you in your transaction, good, bad, and/or ugly. But to me, this just seems like sour grapes over a pony that turned out to be a bad investment and now she wants someone to pay. The fact that she considers a horse (or pony in this case) an “investment” speaks volumes in my opinion. How many people have had their “investments” pan out vs. going dead lame?

Just my opinion…I’ll zip up my flame suit if need be :D[/QUOTE]

You should zip up yer flame suit tight.

Or, don’t ever be unhappy when…

Your trusted mechanic does a half-a$$ed job (or doesn’t tell you the seller is is favorite uncle) on a car’s PPE such that a wheel falls off and someone dies. You can have this on your conscience or payables list even though “Damn, I know I don’t know good wheels from bad… that’s why I hired an expert.”

Or run the same scenario with, say, a radiologist looking at pictures of you that relate to your treatment, quality of life or longevity. Are you not concerned that that person be held to best practices of their field when it comes to your life?

There’s a reason that the legal obligations of hired experts are specified and contested when necessary. We depend on them.

#155

[QUOTE=mvp;7018638]
You should zip up yer flame suit tight.

Or, don’t ever be unhappy when…

Your trusted mechanic does a half-a$$ed job (or doesn’t tell you the seller is is favorite uncle) on a car’s PPE such that a wheel falls off and someone dies. You can have this on your conscience or payables list even though “Damn, I know I don’t know good wheels from bad… that’s why I hired an expert.”

Or run the same scenario with, say, a radiologist looking at pictures of you that relate to your treatment, quality of life or longevity. Are you not concerned that that person be held to best practices of their field when it comes to your life?

There’s a reason that the legal obligations of hired experts are specified and contested when necessary. We depend on them.[/QUOTE]

I’m not saying that they should not be held to those standards. I am saying where is the proof that this happened? All I see are invoices, some mysterious HS Medication line item and an allegation that the PPE vet knew about previous issues with the pony.

ETA…and using your mechanic example, I would still have to prove that he was negligent. That’s all I’m asking for, is proof that they (vet and agent) knew something was wrong with the pony from the get go.

#156

I have a question - if a horse is blocked or nerved, is there any internal or external scarring that occurs that would show that this had been performed? Or is it all a series of injections?

#157

[QUOTE=comingback;7018640]
I’m not saying that they should not be held to those standards. I am saying where is the proof that this happened? All I see are invoices, some mysterious HS Medication line item and an allegation that the PPE vet knew about previous issues with the pony.

ETA…and using your mechanic example, I would still have to prove that he was negligent. That’s all I’m asking for, is proof that they (vet and agent) knew something was wrong with the pony from the get go.[/QUOTE]

You and I are confused about a couple of things.

  1. How do these invoices relate to the claim that Heritage Farm did no wrong (or some other part of their defense like “Hey man, the client knew the trainwreck of a pony she was buying”?).

  2. Why did Heritage Farms make these documents public? What was their purpose in doing so?

I tried to find them on RateMyHorsePro where I hoped I’d find some kind of contextualizing introduction that would answer my question. I failed.

Anyone?

Otherwise, comingback, you need to read the complaint to figure out why the suit is happening. Nothing about these invoices say anything one way or another by themselves. This thread is just a spin-off generated by the release of those, that’s all.

#158

I apologize if this has already been posted, I did not read every post.

The invoices are very direct, there is usually a “Cost of Living” sheet at big show stables so there are no surprises and upset customers.
All the speculation on this topic written in the Forum is silly. The customer knew what they were getting into cost wise. As for their complaint, I wish I could go back after a period of time and get my money back for a few of the horses I have bought.
I rode at Heritage for several years. I knew the costs associated with riding at the stable by asking questions before I committed. I also bought horses when at Heritage, the team at the stable could not have been more straight forward and professional.
Long before I stopped showing I took my horses to another stable in the same area - I don’t want the speculators to think I am just trying to support my stable.

The owner of the pony thinks she has a case - Why don’t we let the court decide and stop the bashing.

#159

[QUOTE=circus peanuts;7018654]
I have a question - if a horse is blocked or nerved, is there any internal or external scarring that occurs that would show that this had been performed? Or is it all a series of injections?[/QUOTE]

I can’t speak to nerving, but mine was blocked quite a few times when we went through a lameness spell a few years ago, in order to pinpoint where the problem was. It’s temporary, done with something similar to what you get your gums numbed with for dental work, and wears off pretty quickly, but it’s injected into (at?) the nerve. The only time I could see any kind of mark from it is when the horse shifted, the vet didn’t hit it quite right, and it bled a little, which was particularly apparent as my horse had a sock on the leg they were blocking. Otherwise, no, nothing readily visible, and the effects wore off within hours.

#160

I’d hazard a guess that the radiographs taken during the PPE showed rotation, but the buyer was not informed of it.

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