The Anglo-Arab for sport? Predominantly eventing?

[Nadia1990]

Ive been looking through the breeding of some the recent stars of eventing and am seeing the Anglo-Arab is popping up quite consistently particularly on the mare side, I myself have a 2 young Traks who have AA blood through the dam and the show a lot of quality (only 3 & 4 old at this stage). Im wondering on everyones opinions on AA blood in a sport horse?

for example

FischerTakinou out of an AA mare (1/2 AA)
Opgun Louvo 1/4 AA
Tenareze same as Takinou Jaguar Mail over AA mare
The lovely stallion Upsilon 1/2 AA
Telstar de Bordenave 1/2 AA

These are just a few example and it seems to be predominantly fresh bred horses but they are all world class horses? Is AA maybe the missing ingredient for eventing breeding in other countries?

[Nadia1990]

Sorry meant to say predominantly french bred horses but for some reason won’t let me edit

[vineyridge]

The French AA is almost exclusively in France.

Some of the British event horses were AA–Tamarillo for WFP was a very successful 4* horse about twelve years ago and his clone, Tomatillo, is being stood in GB by the same folks who bred Tamarillo. They also stand a homebred AA named Persiflage from the same AA lines. They been breeding Arab TB crosses for many, many years. But these horses have very little connection to the French AA breed

There was an horse whose name I have forgotten who won Le Lion at the age of 6 after a year of never finishing a competition below 1st place. He was injured at seven and seems to have disappeared. His sire was Sarastro who was also the best eventing sire in France for a couple of years, and Sarastro had a AA dam and an SF sire. The horse I’m thinking about has an SF dam with almost no Arab, if any, IIRC.

Then there is Bonaparte N who was bred Germany and is all Shagya and TB with no true Arab anywhere close. He’s done show jumping, and is currently standing in Germany. They call him an Anglo-Arab but he’s a Shagya-TB cross registered as an AAR (whatever that is).

In the main the “true” AA is French, has its own separate French studbook, and doesn’t travel often. I’m under the impression that the modern eventing AAs are the byproduct of AA racing in France both over Fences and (maybe) in their own flat circuit (?).

[TrueColours]

Ive long been a fan of the Anglo Arab in modern Sport Horse stallions (and mares too!)

A stallion I stood years ago - the Polish bred “Winner” - was Anglo Arab through both his sire and dam lines

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10608699

He competed and won up to the GP and Nations Cup levels in Europe and North America and a huge percentage of his offspring end up in the GP ring winning as well. And in North America, winning in the Eq and Hunter rings at the biggest shows …

Redwine is another - Anglo Arab through the damline and it really seems to solidify that very typey head and build he seems to throw …

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=Redwine&sex=&color=&dog_breed=any&birthyear=&birthland=

The Royal Beach Farao stallion is another. GP and World Cup winning stallion in Europe, Canada and the USA under multiple riders over a show career that spanned almost 2 decades and then a consistent winner in the Hunter Derbies and Adult Eq classes in his later years … Anglo Arab through his damline …

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=royal+beach+farao+&sex=&color=&dog_breed=any&birthyear=&birthland=

They all seem to descend from the Shagya Arabian - a purpose bred Anglo Arabian usually originating from the Eastern European regions. When I did my exhaustive research on Winner in the beginning (he came to me with no papers, no pedigree information, no show record - nothing. Just the information that he had apparently jumped in the “Big Ring” in Europe at one time, and was imported to Canada by the Elders and was the featured horse in the movie “Big Spender”). In the literally hundreds if not thousands of hours I spent finding out who he was and what he had done and what he had sired, I came across an incredible amount of upper level horses that shared the Anglo Arabian connection. In the jumper, eventing and dressage disciplines in Europe, and in the Hunter and Jumper rings in North America

When you look at stallions like Winner and Royal Beach Farao that competed successfully and soundly into their late teens / early twenties, you HAVE to recognize the influence the Arabian has on that soundness and show record. As a breed, as a whole, they are well known for the incredible toughness and their longevity. For them to live well into their late twenties or early thirties is the norm - its not the exception

Other than Winner having melanoma issues (he was grey) his legs were as clean as could be and he was incredibly sound as well. Royal Beach Farao is the same. There is not a single mark on any leg anywhere and I cant even begin to fathom how many huge jumps he has jumped in his career …

As a whole, these stallions and the offspring of these stallions seem to be incredibly versatile and “user friendly” I got so many pictures from owners of Winner offspring that would show them this weekend at the biggest show and winning a Championship in the hunter or jumper ring and then next weekend they slapped a Western saddle on them and went on a cattle drive and finished off by swimming with the other horses in the lake . And with Farao, jumping around a course with a leather strap around his neck only - bridleless …

I think for so long, because of the PERCEIVED image of Arabs being these “little crazy horses that you cant give away for free” they steered away from them in droves. Its only when you really look into the pedigrees of the purpose bred horses with Arabian blood in them, you really see and appreciate the strong contribution they offer

In closing, many years ago I bought this Anglo Arabian yearling from the late Les Ehrlick - a good family friend and horse dealer. He matured to about 15.2 but you’d never know he was “size compromised” at all … He won with a very young Markus Fuchs at the Junior International and I then sent him to the late and incredibly great Gord Kirton and his daughter Kim rode him in the Junior Jumper ring to Championship after Championship and he was then sold to Mario Deslaurier as his first Open horse. There was nothing faster in the ring in the Speed classes and Mario won class after class on him. He could land and spin and be heading off in another direction in the blink of an eye and cut corners and jump clean from impossible angles that no one else could attempt. He was unbeatable in his day in the Open Speed classes. This little 15.2hh Anglo Arabian …

IMO they are truly the most UNDERrated influence on performance horse pedigrees out there …

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

A French AA available to the US is Querdolan Vitarel, via Chatsworth Stud. Bonaparte N is also available via Superior Equine Sires… And that semen works… Expecting a foal in June.

Another very nice stallion who was 50% French AA and is still available frozen is Edelweiss de Bonce. Bred like a jumper, but went on to be a Grand Prix dressage horse.
My guess is he could produce a fabulous event prospect if used with a nice TB mare.

And Persiflage is available to US breeders. Love him… But Bonaparte N is a pretty unique stallion, so he was my choice.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Another thing to look at when researching top notch Anglo Arab performance stallions, is the degree to which they are line bred. Not all, Ramzes was an F1 cross as is Persiflage, (neither being French AA, but both being interesting performance stallions) - but some are VERY linebred. Anyway, I find it interesting… And perhaps a strong factor in the genetic “punch” some of these stallions have packed. A few examples…

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/matcho
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/inschallah2
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/querdolan+vitarel
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/bonaparte+n

[Nadia1990]

This information is great Thankyou!! hugely appreciated!!

[Jmarcan]

One of the important French Anglo-arab sires, Denouste, can also be found in the bloodlines of many modern purebred Arabian racehorses both in North America and abroad…through horses like Dormane, sire of the champion Arabian sporthorse Oration who goes to Denouste several times. And there are purebreds of many lines who really like to jump if given the chance…some of them Crabbet, others Egyptian(think Gharib at Marbach) and Polish. Combine that with endurance ability…and I think the Arab still has something to offer as an outcross if chosen and blended carefully.

[vineyridge]

I don’t think there has ever been any question that Polish Arabs are sporty, far more as a group than the other types of Arabs except maybe the French ones who are, in the main, bred for different pursuits (except for endurance) than most modern day Arabs in the West.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Any opinions on specific TB lines that seem to have worked well in terms of an AA cross?

Primitive Rising comes to mind given Persiflage, but perhaps that’s more a matter of straight up excellent sport horses (sire and dam) than a great cross. Bonaparte N is line bred on a mare who was a steeplechaser (Maerchenfee) and goes back to Neckar.

At the end of the day, great blood is great blood, but it’s neat to look at the crosses that REALLY worked. Biddesden Stud has an amazing line up of stallions… clearly this blood performs at the highest levels. I just thought maybe better researchers than myself might be able to spot some consistent TB lines which have made for great Anglo Arab crosses. It seems like these discussions often lead to everyone analyzing which types of Arabs are good or not so good for sport… But perhaps we aren’t looking enough at which TB crosses well vs. which doesn’t.

[vineyridge]

Do you want TB x Arab (or Shagya) or do you also want the French AAs which may have been mixes for generations with no new either TB or Arab blood. All it takes, for the French, as I understand it, is a certain percentage of Arab blood in the pedigree as a whole to qualify as an AA (and now an SF-AA cross can qualify as an AA of some variety.)

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

I want both, but probably more TB x Arab or Shagya (F1). My assumption with French AA is that they have used the same few lines over and over, as they have bred AAs for multiple generations in their own studbook…so I assume you tend to see some really specific foundation lines in terms of TB s, and those lines heavily repeated and doubled, given the propensity for line breeding and cross duplicates in French pedigrees.

I think it would be a good thing to know for the idealistic breeders here in America dreaming of doing a good AA cross… Something along the lines of Biddesden Stud. Their horses blow me away - but clearly a TON of thought and careful selection has gone into the Arabs they use.

Speaking of Biddesden… I saw this young mare on their sale page. Partbred Arab crossed with TB. But what an INCREDIBLE pedigree packed with top performing blood. That’s the sort of mare that makes you wish you had an unlimited budget…

http://www.biddesdenstud.co.uk/stock/thevetia/

[TrueColours]

I loved the Anglo foals that Guaranteed Gold produced. They were all so similar in type out of some very different mares … and have gone on to dressage careers, hunter careers and one is being pointed towards an endurance career and her owner hopes to go in the Tevis Cup with her which would be absolutely amazing!

http://www.truecoloursfarm.com/guaranteed-gold---arabian-cross-foals.html

[NoDQhere]

I’m curious to see what folks think of this mare’s pedigree: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/willow+bez
Willow was a working ranch horse when we bought her as a broodmare. She is retired from breeding but produced some nice Sport Horses. We always thought the Anglo-Arab brought a lot to the table and had two mares by Bezalla from the same ranch. They bred AA’s as ranch horses on their 80,000 acres.

[OBdB]

Do you want TB x Arab (or Shagya) or do you also want the French AAs which may have been mixes for generations with no new either TB or Arab blood. All it takes, for the French, as I understand it, is a certain percentage of Arab blood in the pedigree as a whole to qualify as an AA (and now an SF-AA cross can qualify as an AA of some variety.)

some of the recent changes are :

a foal out of a AA-mare with a father who is approved but not AA is a AAcr, AA de croisement (= an AA-halfblood)

before, to be a registered french AA, a horse had to have at least 25% of Ar-blood, I think this was changed to 12,5%. they are called AAc, AA de complément.
When these AAc were bred to a stallion and the foal had more than 25% (12,5%) they were fully inscriptible in the AA stud-book.

[chector]

In this article I talk to breeders and Anglo Arab officials / experts about the breed, you might find it helpful http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2017/01/french-eventing-part-two-the-anglo-arab/

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

[QUOTE=chector;9028532]
In this article I talk to breeders and Anglo Arab officials / experts about the breed, you might find it helpful http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2017/01/french-eventing-part-two-the-anglo-arab/[/QUOTE]

Great article! Thanks for writing and sharing it here. The French AA is definitely quite different than an F1 cross, but I am curious if they have a strong position or rational against using F1 crosses, or pure TB or Arab stallions on the remaining mare base in an effort to expand the gene pool, while not compromising in terms of blood? It seems like the French AA could be revived and survive as a unique breed with a few specific blood outcrosses, rather than introducing with warmblood horses which really change some of the defining characteristics of an Anglo Arab…

[OBdB]

Thank you chector very interesting article !

[OBdB]

Great article! Thanks for writing and sharing it here. The French AA is definitely quite different than an F1 cross, but I am curious if they have a strong position or rational against using F1 crosses, or pure TB or Arab stallions on the remaining mare base in an effort to expand the gene pool, while not compromising in terms of blood? It seems like the French AA could be revived and survive as a unique breed with a few specific blood outcrosses, rather than introducing with warmblood horses which really change some of the defining characteristics of an Anglo Arab…

they also still have the reservoir of the race section …

and, at one of the auction liquidating the HN-stallions, two pure-bred AA stallions were sold to Belgium.
And evidently, there are TBs and some ‘original’ AA-stallions (original in the sense of a direct TBxAr cross) who are very very interesting.
I remember one of them, a white stallion stationed at the time at Le Pin. Daswam was already 20 years old but was the archetype of an AA, just as described in the article.
And he was a performer in eventing … with a honorable performance (ICC 130 or something). Unfortunately, he returned to the south-west before I could use him (even if it would have been on a WB-blood mare with much blood).

[vineyridge]

Fascinating, Chris Hector. And it’s pretty obvious that the changes and near extinction of the “true” AA have all occurred in the last fifteen or so years. The market giveth and the market taketh away.