Out of curiosity I looked up the rider’s results for the past two years. I counted 10 instances of 20+ SJ jump penalties across three different horses. A total of just over 100 runs across maybe a half dozen horses over the two year period. On the plus side, it looks like they withdrew before XC in those instances (except during long formats where SJ was last) before the CR rule was in effect . I’m glad the one horse in question has found a new lower level home.
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If 10% of your SJ rounds are 20 penalties or more, on multiple horses at many events…you might want to think about getting a new SJ coach. JMO
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I don’t disagree 
And perhaps some of those horses need to move down - sounds like that already happened for one of them.
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May I add a thought in here.
I notice now that since events pack the stadium minutes before Xc that a fair number of riders are riding courses in closed front xc boots. Realistically these boots mute the impacts of any rails lightly tipped and prevent the horse from feeling the full sensation of touching a rail like bare legs or open fronts allow.
Given the propensity of studs in their shoes I would obviously not recommend bare legs, but I do think there could be a correlating factor with what a horse can feel and the number of dropped rails. And for sure there will always be horses that jump by braille and wouldn’t improve no matter what, but I just have watched a fair number and thought they might have jumped cleaner and pulled less rails if they could have felt them.
Em
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That is one reason I hate the set up of SJ right before XC. There is only one or two events in Ontario that do that, but I don’t like showjumping in my XC for me or my horse.
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It could be a factor depending on the horse and type of rails the horse has. When my horse has a rail it’s almost always a hoof that makes contact, he rarely makes contact with his cannon bone unless I really screw something up. Also, a lot of the big events happening down south this time still have a decent amount of time between SJ and XC even for one days.
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If you get eliminated in Dressage (prolonged disobedience, all 4 leaving the arena, etc) you don’t get to finish your test.
If you get eliminated on XC, you don’t get to finish your course (although there are times when the elimination occurs so close to the end that it is logistically impossible to pull them up before finishing).
If you get eliminated in Stadium, I don’t see where it would be any different. Ring the bell and move on. FWIW, I agree with the posters who mentioned that at 20 it is no longer even a schooling opportunity, just a bad day.
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I think there are going to be a lot of stadium CR rounds that get to finish exactly because of the point you make in regards to XC. There are plenty of instances where someone should have been pulled up based on cumulative refusals but it can take multiple minutes to coordinate that happening. Stadium rounds lasting less than 2 minutes just don’t have that kind of time.
If your 5th rail occurs right before or at the start of the last line from home, I doubt the judge is going to risk interrupting your rhythm in the stride or two before a jump (by the time the judge checks and double checks the current penalty number).
Or if you have 3 fences earlier on and then the last two down (entirely possible especially if it’s a combination or related distance).
I actually think there are very few instances where someone would have the requisite number of fences down early enough in the course to be pulled up, though of course I’m sure it has and will happen occasionally.
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Completely agree!
An observation as a ring steward and jump judge: riders need to do better on course when they’ve exceeded maximum numbers of refusals or rails. It’s their responsibility to pull up BEFORE an official has to chase them down. They can count and they know they’ve been eliminated.
This rule is necessary, but I do understand UL riders hating it for the reason that it’s much more likely to happen the higher the fences get… These days the fences are so light and the cups so shallow - especially as the levels progress. At the lower levels, I’d assume if you have 5 rails you are having a spectacularly bad day.
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I’m not so sure about this - I can see not being certain if a rail came down, or being so wrapped up (in a round gone bad) that you forget to count.
I think your point is a good one, @beowulf, just playing devil’s advocate.
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I never know when a rail comes down, I don’t look back. It could have been a really hard rap or it could have come down - I’m never sure until the end.
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I feel like 9 times out of 10 you can hear it. Either hear your horse touch it up front or the soft thud as it hits the ground. No looking back necessary
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I fully support this rule.
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Agree. I try to concentrate on the fences in front of me, not the ones I’ve already jumped.
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Hmmm. I may get roasted for this… I’ve always been told knowing you pulled a rail is a basic, essential skill. You can hear it, you can feel it, and most certainly know based on your approach. You shouldn’t need to look behind you, and given that SJ is always set on open sight lines, you can see whether or not you pulled rail[s] as you go around the course.
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Probably just different coaching or styles. I was taught not to worry about the last fence since you can’t change it, and just to focus on the next fence. If you’re listening to hear whether a rail fell, or you’re looking to see if the rail is on the ground when you go around a turn, then at least part of your mind is on a previous fence.
Obviously in schooling or discussing your course afterwards, you want to understand what about the approach or jumping effort led to the rail, so you need to know it happened. But, as a low-level eventer, it’s not something I’ve ever felt (or been told) was important to know in the middle of my course. Maybe it’s just that all my coaches have recognized that my mind can’t hold very many thoughts at once when jumping a course.
However, I can see where it would be useful to know in a jump-off or other situation where you know how many rails you have over a competitor, and you’re trying to decide whether to be more conservative or go for the time, etc. On my current horse, at BN/N level, I’m certainly never worried about whether I’m going to make the time in SJ. LOL.
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I can understand this from a LL perspective or a beginner rider, but not for someone regularly showing. How are you competitive if you aren’t paying attention to penalties you accumulate? There’s so many times this matters: close scores after dressage, time penalties on XC, etc. We pay attention to our time on XC and SJ - this is another thing to pay attention to, and is frankly an extremely valuable, basic skill.
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Well, I literally said I was currently riding at BN/N. So yes, I am just sharing my perspective as a LL eventer, but one who shows regularly and is at least semi-competitive. I try to be competitive by having the best round I can by paying attention to the things I can control, like my ride to the next fence, not things I can’t, like whether I had a rail down.
I get that you think it is a valuable and basic skill to know how many rails you have down while riding your course, but I have literally never had a trainer who has ever mentioned it. Apparently we have had trainers with different perspectives on the value of this skill or the point in the rider training pyramid where it should be introduced. Perhaps it is a skill my trainers will suggest I learn at some point in my riding. But for now, I don’t see it as a skill I need to work on and I’ll just count on the SJ judge to let me know if I’m eliminated for having too many rails down.
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But… pulling a rail down is within your control.
Do you think Ollie or Jung are going around the course oblivious to whether rails stay up?
I am not attacking you, your riding, your trainer, or your trainer’s program. I am simply pointing out that it’s a valuable skill to practice. No one is suggesting you swerve around in your tack between a combination to see if you pulled the first fence down and this is very likely what your trainer means… but there are plenty of places around the course where you have the time to see if you’ve pulled a rail down. You should also be feeling or hearing it. It’s not exactly subtle.
The problem with your approach is it totally shifts the responsibility of pulling up from the RIDER. Believe me, if you have five rails down… you know. Those rails make noises, the ride feels like crap. The rider should be pulling up.
Most of the stewards are volunteers - don’t make their life any more difficult than it needs to be.
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