I need to look up some of the people that have been mentioned in this thread, but this was someone I’d come across awhile ago, never seen them or anything though. Anyone know anything about this guy?
Mark Russell
http://www.naturaldressage.com
DLee, to be fair, Buck said that Mindy’s horse was a previously messed-up/ruined restart sort of deal, and I took it as though it was not particularly recent.
Buck said she did make a useful horse out of him by most people’s standards, but Buck said that there was no way he was going to make a bridle horse. He just lived in the bosal and made a living being a cowboy-type using horse. So he got salvaged/repurposed, but never to the higher standards that Mindy is capable of.
If I recall correctly, Betty Staley’s horse Murphy is a Tennessee Walker, and had some sort of physical problem that prevented his show career from progressing.
One thing I know for sure…IF you go there, you better be prepared to bring the horse all the way through or you will end up worse. Not many people have the patience or the knowledge to bring a horse all the way through. Which is why I always chose clinicians wisely and audited their teaching styles before I would ever ride with them or let them touch my horse, both dressage or buckaroo type horsemanship.
re-runs, I’m pretty sure you’re talking here about what Tom Moates (via Harry Whitney) calls ‘The Razor’s Edge’.
I don’t know many horseman who can do this with a horse.
Yes, you have to get a horse ‘facing his demons’, the horse will be upset…and if you do it right, you get a profound effect on the horse. If you do it wrong, you pretty much traumatize the horse and build in fear and mistrust. And you may not EVER get back what you could have had, if it had been done right.
If you’ve ever watched Ray Hunt’s Turning Loose video, you’ll see Ray seemingly going after troubled horses, where all previous ‘feel’ will tell you he should be backing off, not going harder. And yet the horse comes through it profoundly turned loose. I’m just starting to get a feel for this…you have to sort of press on, almost harass the horse further, yet allow the horse to come back to you. My mentor says, ‘you have to take them over into the Dark Side.’ Hard to describe, for sure.
And something that I would let Buck or Harry or my own mentor/helper do with my horse…but not anyone else. There are definitely other folks that would likely be able to do so (Joe Wolter, Martin Black, Buster McLaury, Tom Curtin, Lee Smith), but the potential to really convince that horse that you really DO mean it harm is pretty big. So I’d want to see them work horses, in person, before I sent my own horse to the ‘razor’s edge’ with them.
I will say I have ‘gone there’ with certain horses- id’ing an issue and picking a day when I know I’ve got all day, if that’s what it takes to get through something. Hard to concisely articulate all of the possible reasons- but a two fold purpose, first, letting the horse know that (s)he just has to do ‘it.’ The other purpose, yes, finding out what a really pressured horse will do. Overwhelmingly what they’ll do isn’t as bad as one imagines they might do.
On the whole though, the best path to success is to avoid what we are all guilty of- a horse gets to a tarp or a jump or some sticky situation, or pauses to ponder loading in a trailer, and the tendency is to smother them with aids or on the ground stimuli- more active leg and other communications that I think the horse takes as ‘hurry up and deal with this,’ when the horse usually just needs a little time to process info. My current gelding had a thing for cracks in the asphalt and road stripes. And others have similar issues with, say, crossing water. When they want to put their heads down to get a better visual, I let 'em- where some might fear that giving them their heads means losing control. With the freedom to have a good look and then the second request, they generally pass with flying colors.
The ideal though, remembering the mantra of rewarding the try, is as has been previously described- you don’t expect every horse to cross a tarp at first exposure, just like you don’t expect a horse to jump 3 feet at the first schooling session. And- drummed into me in France 40 years ago- always end on a good note and dismount at that moment, it’s part of the reward.
[QUOTE=Beverley;7247881]
And- drummed into me in France 40 years ago- always end on a good note and dismount at that moment, it’s part of the reward.[/QUOTE]
Agree, always quit when your horse feels like a hero. We are done any time something special shows up, even if it is only a few minutes into the session. No sense in screwing up something nice, it is our humanness that always wants more.
[QUOTE=airhorse;7247997]
Agree, always quit when your horse feels like a hero. We are done any time something special shows up, even if it is only a few minutes into the session.[/QUOTE]
Yes, but that didn’t mean to quit completely, just to give the moment a long break, make it memorable, then go do something else maybe, like hand grazing, walking around, change the subject completely.
Some I have seen understand quitting when a horse did very well as quitting completely and putting the horse up, which maybe fits if you had worked to that point, or maybe not.
Do mark the moment to the horse in a big time, that is the idea and, like all else, in moderation, where it doesn’t become less effective as a reward if it is overused.
I probably “quit” a hundred times within an hour ride.
On the whole though, the best path to success is to avoid what we are all guilty of- a horse gets to a tarp or a jump or some sticky situation, or pauses to ponder loading in a trailer, and the tendency is to smother them with aids or on the ground stimuli- more active leg and other communications that I think the horse takes as ‘hurry up and deal with this,’ when the horse usually just needs a little time to process info. My current gelding had a thing for cracks in the asphalt and road stripes. And others have similar issues with, say, crossing water. When they want to put their heads down to get a better visual, I let 'em- where some might fear that giving them their heads means losing control. With the freedom to have a good look and then the second request, they generally pass with flying colors.
I get a ton of practice on this, with our cows.
If they stop at something, you really have to wait, and block them if they turn around.
You very rarely, though, ‘ask again’, unless they get stuck/shut down. And they don’t ususally get stuck/shut down unless they’ve already been chowsed/bullied through something before. If they’re trying to turn around or find a different way through (which you would block), they have all the ‘ask’ or energy they need, there is no need to add pressure.
Yet most people’s response, when they stop, is to add pressure. And thus the critter learns that he will be pushed through the ‘area of least pressure’. At that point, he will either learn to shut down mentally, or get more ‘difficult’ or ‘crazy’ in an attempt to find the option of NO pressure, of complete release.
Anyway, I use a flag, and get JUST enough response that the cow is searching for something to do, somewhere to go. And then use the flag to block them coming back the wrong way. Sometimes, you have to let them come back 20 or 30 feet toward you (you back up ). If they are panicked then a flag waving won’t stop them, so you have to take pressure off by coming away from the trailer or chute or whatever, until a flag wave turns them around. Try to keep them ‘right there’ and you’ll invariably get run over eventually.
If instead, you keep the pressure down enough that you can direct them with a flag, they’ll step in the trailer or go through the gate to the corrals, and once they make that choice CALMLY (rather than having no other choice but to go in the direction of less pressure), they’ll stay on the trailer without twirling and spraying poop, or go into the corral without trying to jump out.
It’s that CHOICE that makes it work. If you compel a horse by offering him two options, one of which sucks, and the other sucks more, the horse will choose the lesser of two evils. And he knows he was ‘made’ to do it. And it will come back and get in the way of a true partnership. The horse will either bury a part of his true self in order to be obedient, or he will get ‘crazy’ and ‘unpredictable’ in an effort to find the option that is his own free choice, the one that doesn’t suck at all. (And if it’s a cow, she’s either labeled ‘stubborn’ because she won’t hardly GO, or she learns to jump the fence and run away if ever people arrive to gather cattle.)
I probably “quit” a hundred times within an hour ride.
Five stars, re-runs!
Yes, but that didn’t mean to quit completely, just to give the moment a long break, make it memorable, then go do something else maybe, like hand grazing, walking around, change the subject completely.
Some I have seen understand quitting when a horse did very well as quitting completely and putting the horse up, which maybe fits if you had worked to that point, or maybe not.
Do mark the moment to the horse in a big time, that is the idea and, like all else, in moderation, where it doesn’t become less effective as a reward if it is overused.
Right on, Bluey.
I personally would not often get off the horse, but I almost never ride in an arena. There’s usually more to do. And with work (cow work, especially) the horse begins to understand that he has succeeded in helping you make something work. Now, a border collie might understand more, your relief that the cows finally went through the right gate. But the horse does, too. And all the horse really needs at that time, is for you to acknowledge to him that you appreciate what he did to make that happen.
Honestly, if I got off my horse in the forest, he’d wonder why (if I didn’t stop to pee!) I climb a stump, the trailer fenders, the 4-wheeler rack, and he’s BUSY getting the saddle as close as he possibly can to help me on. And I have a hold of the mecate rein, but I don’t tell him what to do. He wants me on his back, with him. (He knows I can’t go very fast, and he loves to cover ground!) There is a profound difference between a horse obediently standing quietly at the mounting block (or at the fence, so you can get on) and the horse doing his best to position himself so you can most easily get on.
And if your horse really WANTS you on his back, getting off as a reward, isn’t that much of a reward!
Obviously, in the beginning, your sessions would be less intense, shorter, and you would stop at good points. With a youngster, you might indeed get off and quit at an opportune time. But if that horse really wants to be with you…getting off and putting the horse away as a reward doesn’t make sense any more.
It took me a LONG time to get an inkling of what Tom Dorrance meant, where he said (paraphrased), ‘You want it so the horse would rather be with you than anywhere else in the world.’ I think I have an inkling now, and if the horse feels any PART of that, leaving him makes no sense.
[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7248199]
It took me a LONG time to get an inkling of what Tom Dorrance meant, where he said (paraphrased), ‘You want it so the horse would rather be with you than anywhere else in the world.’ I think I have an inkling now, and if the horse feels any PART of that, leaving him makes no sense.[/QUOTE]
Wow, that’s what I would love to accomplish with my youngster! I think I had that with my Old Appy until a rotational fall wrecked both our confidences. I will try to read Tom Dorrance’s book…I really have a hard time understanding what it is he is trying to say, though…I guess being as visual as I am I should try to find some videos.
It’s that CHOICE that makes it work. If you compel a horse by offering him two options, one of which sucks, and the other sucks more, the horse will choose the lesser of two evils. And he knows he was ‘made’ to do it. And it will come back and get in the way of a true partnership. The horse will either bury a part of his true self in order to be obedient, or he will get ‘crazy’ and ‘unpredictable’ in an effort to find the option that is his own free choice, the one that doesn’t suck at all. (And if it’s a cow, she’s either labeled ‘stubborn’ because she won’t hardly GO, or she learns to jump the fence and run away if ever people arrive to gather cattle.)
This is a statement where the person had experience far beyond “making the right thing easy, the wrong thing difficult”. When we start out on this journey, I think we do just what you talked about…we give the horse a choice between two options that suck but as we get more experience, we find a way to set things up so that there is an option where the horse feels like we are helping him out with a good offer that he sees as saving him. (even if it be ever so simple)
There is a profound difference between a horse obediently standing quietly at the mounting block (or at the fence, so you can get on) and the horse doing his best to position himself so you can most easily get on.
And if your horse really WANTS you on his back, getting off as a reward, isn’t that much of a reward!
This is so important in growing a partnership where the horse will come from their side to help the person out and I am sure…very sure…that it sets the stage for the ride that comes after. It is a way of leveling the plane and the horses appreciate it.
And your last statement:
“And if your horse really WANTS you on his back, getting off as a reward, isn’t that much of a reward!”
You just opened my eyes to something.
re-runs, you made me cry.
Point of clarification, no, what I meant is ‘at the end of that ride,’ whether it’s 30 minutes or hours, quit on a good note and dismount on a good note. As others as noted, you for sure have to take breaks when riding a horse or you fry them mentally and physically in no time at all. In fact it’s one of my little pet peeves when I see people- including trainers- drilling for too long and just going from one exercise to another in succession without just ‘quitting’ for a spell and letting the horse understand it’s okay to relax and ‘veg out’ under saddle. Likewise I always follow the old rule of ‘walk the first mile and the last mile,’ whether on the trail or in the arena, just letting them warm up and cool down ‘on the buckle.’
I love reading this thread. I’ve had my gelding for almost 5 years now, got him as a recently gathered 2-1/2 year old (mustang) who wasn’t even gelded yet. After watching some videos, and reading this thread, I feel like there is something missing 
froglander, I got Mac when he was 5. He had been gelded and “started” in that he was used as a pack horse and on some nose-to-tail trail rides. Mustangs are different. You’re working with a horse whose self-preservation instinct is VERY strong and the longer they ran with a herd, the more they’d revert to that mode, I’d gather.
I look back on when I first got him and am amazed that he didn’t kill me! Ground work consisted of lunging in the dressage fashion (eventually with side reins), and there would be moments of rearing and striking and leaping in the air. (As an aside, I didn’t just start him in side reins, because he didn’t even know how to lunge. First I taught him the basics of going around me in a circle, voice commands, transitions, etc., but eventually we moved to using side reins.) Under saddle, he really didn’t do anything bad at all (not like on the lunge), until we were in a situation where he felt he needed to take care of himself and I wasn’t helping him. Before then I was just getting lucky, stealing easy rides but not developing the partnership that is so important to him. That’s when I realized I needed to make a change - like you, I felt there was something missing and I wanted to do better for my horse.
If you feel there is something missing, the good news is maybe you have an idea of what it is that you’re looking for. And there are lots of tools available to you. If you’re a visual learner, then good news - there are lots of DVDs you can rent at Giddyupflix. I do think the “7 Clinics” DVDs are a worthwhile investment and that’s where I started. You can audit clinics, you can read books, you can ask all the questions you want to get the help you need.
You have the power to make the change you want and to create the kind of partnership you want to have. There are lots of ingredients - time, patience, teachers, patience, practice, patience, study, patience, observation, patience . . . you get the idea. 
Show us your mustang! I love sharing pictures of Mac and seeing pictures of other mustangs! 
Here are a couple pics of my goofy guy 
And it’s not totally lacking, I just feel like it could be better?
This pic was from 3-1/2 years ago, Wedding Pony
Ooooooh, he’s SO handsome!!!
Where did he come from?
And yes, it can always be better - no matter who you are or who your horse is. It can always be better!
On the other hand, we started many feral horses and they were just like any other horse that had not been handled before, no mystique to them, really.
To believe that “mustangs are different” is setting the ones working with them for trouble, unnecessarily so, because, well, they just are not.
Feral horses are not that far from the domesticated horses they come from to be any different.
We had one here that was one of our best ranch cutting horses, caught in a Nevada feral herd at five and gelded and trained just like any other horse.
The only difference was that, as per our vets, he had rickets in his knees from probably having been in a drought at the time those were forming and closing and with poor nutrition, well, those just didn’t form as well as they should have.
We were careful and never did use him very hard and he was fine for many years, until we finally had to retire him because his knees started bothering him.
He also had big, platter feet and some draft horse in him, maybe, as he was one of the taller ones in his bunch at 15 hands, the bay here with the bald face:
You`ll always feel like there is something missing. Embrace it, as that is the fun of having the lightbulb moments, peeling the onion… Tom Dorrance at the end of his life was wanting to know more about “the spirit” of the horse and Bill Dorrance said that it took more than one lifetime.
I tell people…we were not born knowing this stuff. My Native American friend says that “each animal is born in touch with their original instructions. They are spirits having an equine experience, we are humans, having a human experience.”
We are trying to figure out and come as close as possible to understanding the animal having an equine experience.
I have spoken over and over again with others on this journey and most say it was a difficult horse that brought them to this kind of horsemanship. If you were getting along with your horse, then perhaps there was no need to explore anything else but some of us found out that what we knew was not enough and we didn`t want to give up on that horse so…we sought out someONE that could help us, which ended us up with someTHING instead. We became committed to take the first step on a long, never ending journey. The “thing” being something very personal, a mind shift, knowledge…being able to step into another creatures skin… in never ending degrees. The discovery of “feel”.
I never really went about it as “omg, he’s a mustang so must be different”. It was still a neat day when I was able to touch him, and a bigger deal was getting him to let me stand on his right side, he was very protective of that side and would maneuver himself so that he always had me on his left. But on the flip-side, stuff like spray bottles and clippers have never bothered him.
He was gathered in November of 2008 and I adopted him the first weekend in December of that same year.
(going through my old blog that I haven’t updated in forever, fun to look at pics)
Here he is a couple weeks after I got him
And the day I brought him home
