The Dressage - Brannaman nexus: Can we talk about particulars?

To me they are different because of how they were brought up. Instead of being a purposefully-bred horse, who was handled since birth, taught to lead, tie, stand, etc., with the intention of riding or driving or being used, they had a different start of running with a herd, fleeing (with all the room necessary to do so) or fighting (for dominance / mating privileges) - not having to do what a person says they have to do.

But of course, I also have one whom I was told “this is the most difficult horse I’ve ever worked with” so that might skew my opinion a bit. :winkgrin:

Here’s Mac when I first picked him out, living in his herd on 100+ acres:

http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s654/PrincessFishCheeks/Big%20Mac%20%202005%20BLM%20mustang/Horseshopping032.jpg

Here’s Mac last October (2012):

http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s654/PrincessFishCheeks/Big%20Mac%20%202005%20BLM%20mustang/MacOct8013.jpg

re-runs, thank you, you put that quite well.

I guess I should look at it more as “if there is an elusive something missing, just all the more reason to keep going”, right?

[QUOTE=re-runs;7249808]
You`ll always feel like there is something missing. Embrace it, as that is the fun of having the lightbulb moments, peeling the onion… Tom Dorrance at the end of his life was wanting to know more about “the spirit” of the horse and Bill Dorrance said that it took more than one lifetime.

I tell people…we were not born knowing this stuff. My Native American friend says that “each animal is born in touch with their original instructions. They are spirits having an equine experience, we are humans, having a human experience.”

We are trying to figure out and come as close as possible to understanding the animal having an equine experience.

I have spoken over and over again with others on this journey and most say it was a difficult horse that brought them to this kind of horsemanship. If you were getting along with your horse, then perhaps there was no need to explore anything else but some of us found out that what we knew was not enough and we didn`t want to give up on that horse so…we sought out someONE that could help us, which ended us up with someTHING instead. We became committed to take the first step on a long, never ending journey. The “thing” being something very personal, a mind shift, knowledge…being able to step into another creatures skin… in never ending degrees. The discovery of “feel”.[/QUOTE]

I’ve been following this thread and find it very interesting. I’m an English rider, never ridden western. As I’ve grown older, I’m looking at different training techniques with new eyes. I’m mulling all this info. I just wanted to thank all of you for this thread. Gives me something else to think about.

Again, I have to say that, as much as I admire BB, there IS a difference, and it’s wrong to say there is not.

There IS a big difference between “classical” dressage (and certainly between modern, competitive dressage) and the vaquero style of ranch riding that Buck teaches.

It is NOT just a change of tack as BB states in his DVD. It just confuses people and does a dis-service to both disciplines to state otherwise.

Again, I adore BB, and he is a Master horseman…but he has no background in classical dressage.

Example: the discussion on this thread about backing the horse up. In ranch work or reining backing up should be done at speed (correct me if I am wrong). In a dressage test, the rein back is NOT supposed to be fast. It is actually supposed to be a walk, but backwards. In other words, a clear, 4 beat move.

Again, I have the utmost respect for Buck (and Betty S. as well), but Buck does not have any actual dressage training. Not sure about Betty.

Buck is certainly a gorgeous rider, but if someone is attempting to “bridge” the gap between vaquero riding and classical dressage, he is not the best guy to go to. Eventually you have to decide which way to jump if you desire to get serious about either discipline…because there IS a difference other than just the tack and the spandex…

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7250001]
To me they are different because of how they were brought up. Instead of being a purposefully-bred horse, who was handled since birth, taught to lead, tie, stand, etc., with the intention of riding or driving or being used, they had a different start of running with a herd, fleeing (with all the room necessary to do so) or fighting (for dominance / mating privileges) - not having to do what a person says they have to do.

But of course, I also have one whom I was told “this is the most difficult horse I’ve ever worked with” so that might skew my opinion a bit. :winkgrin:

Here’s Mac when I first picked him out, living in his herd on 100+ acres:

http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s654/PrincessFishCheeks/Big%20Mac%20%202005%20BLM%20mustang/Horseshopping032.jpg

Here’s Mac last October (2012):

http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s654/PrincessFishCheeks/Big%20Mac%20%202005%20BLM%20mustang/MacOct8013.jpg[/QUOTE]

Wonderful of you to start a horse that came from that situation, yes it is.
We learn from all, untouched horses also.

We started 15 feral horses every June and they were in our school string, or sold to some other school string by fall.
You could not have picked them out from the other horses in those strings as former feral horses by who they were or how they acted.
They were just like the others, because as horses, they were just like the other horses that were handled when very young by a breeder.

My point was, feral horses are not like a wild animal without any domestication in it’s genes, like a deer or lion, but descendants of domesticated horses and so have practically the same genes.
Just like in domesticated horses, feral horses have large differences in disposition, most amenable to be worked with easily, others less so, for the horses they are, not because one may or not be feral.
It is the nature of the beast.:wink:

It is actually supposed to be a walk, but backwards. In other words, a clear, 4 beat move.

I have to disagree with you there. I have a deep backround in classical dressage, even showing some :eek: when that was important to me. The reinback is a trot backwards, even in dressage (diagonal pairs of legs moving backward). There used to be a lovely movement that was asked for at about third level, it was called the schaukel or see saw, where one would ask for a reinback for a designated amount of steps (three I think as I remember) and in midstep backwards on the third step, a trot forward, which was a beautiful movement because there was no hesitation going backward to forward, it flowed when done correctly. No stop in between, having already using the diagonal gait ; one going backward, then continuing with one going forward. They took it out of the tests because it was too revealing, some of the rollkur bunch were flunking it.

I used to get nines on that movement so I remember a lot about it. :winkgrin:

[QUOTE=hank;7246708]
I can’t say what dressage instruction Betty Staley has had, but she has shown…

http://www.centerlinescores.com/Rider/Details/18792#filterBy=scores[/QUOTE]

Again, if you just want to enrich your knowledge of dressage, but you plan for your primary discipline to be vaquero/ranch riding, then I can see where she could be helpful.

But if you actually want to learn about dressage as a primary discipline, Betty is not your gal. Her show record is extremely unimpressive. Her last show was 7 yrs ago, she barely made it to 3rd level (not even FEI) and most of the time her scores seldom broke 60%. Per those scores, it sounds like she should have actually been riding 2nd level. (in general, if you can’t break 60%, then you shouldn’t move up a level…). Second level is really no big deal…I’m willing to bet many of the COTH readers are riding at that same level…

Again, let me be very clear…I am not dissing either BB or BS. But neither are successful, well-educated dressage riders.

I’ve spent 15 years trying to find that “bridge”, and I can tell you that (eventually) you need to decide which way to jump, because they ARE different disciplines/style/techniques.

They just are. Period. If you want to be successful in either discipline, you can be (I suppose)…but they DO require different styles of riding…and it’s unfair and confusing to state otherwise.

In my search, the closest I have found in terms of dressage vs vaquero riding (unwieldy term…:sigh:) is the Portuguese/French schools of dressage. The Port. school also has it’s base in cattle work IIRC, and also puts far more emphasis on lightness.

As I mentioned before, Lester Buckley seems to be the only person I’ve found so far who actually has formal training & experience in both NHS (via Ray Hunt) AND modern dressage (via his licensure/schooling in Germany…and they don’t just give that stuff away).

[QUOTE=re-runs;7250324]
I have to disagree with you there. I have a deep backround in classical dressage, even showing some :eek: when that was important to me. The reinback is a trot backwards, even in dressage (diagonal pairs of legs moving backward). There used to be a lovely movement that was asked for at about third level, it was called the schaukel or see saw, where one would ask for a reinback for a designated amount of steps (three I think as I remember) and in midstep backwards on the third step, a trot forward, which was a beautiful movement because there was no hesitation going backward to forward, it flowed when done correctly. No stop in between, having already using the diagonal gait ; one going backward, then continuing with one going forward. They took it out of the tests because it was too revealing, some of the rollkur bunch were flunking it.

I used to get nines on that movement so I remember a lot about it. :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]

You are correct – I mis-typed (its what I get trying to think about 2 things at once!:eek:). But the move is NOT supposed to be fast…speed is not the ultimate goal in a dressage test. I think we can agree on that…

What is rewarded in the showring today is not what was rewarded in the showring of yesteryear. Perhaps (Betty S.) she is still following the principles of the old masters and it is not being rewarded in todays sandbox; the reason why I gave up showing, and I showed and won a lot, even bringing my homebred up to GP. I will still clinic with dressage teachers following classical principles simply because the conflict is not there between dressage and the journey I am on now; Vaquero horsemanship. It makes the horses better, one complimenting the other. I wouldn`t give up what I learned in my early dressage life for anything, it has helped me figure a lot of things out.

I have never met Betty S., all I know about her is what I saw on the Buck movie. I just thought I would throw that out there, maybe the reason for few low scores.

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7250302]
Again, I have to say that, as much as I admire BB, there IS a difference, and it’s wrong to say there is not.

There IS a big difference between “classical” dressage (and certainly between modern, competitive dressage) and the vaquero style of ranch riding that Buck teaches.

It is NOT just a change of tack as BB states in his DVD. It just confuses people and does a dis-service to both disciplines to state otherwise.

Again, I adore BB, and he is a Master horseman…but he has no background in classical dressage.

Example: the discussion on this thread about backing the horse up. In ranch work or reining backing up should be done at speed (correct me if I am wrong). In a dressage test, the rein back is NOT supposed to be fast. It is actually supposed to be a walk, but backwards. In other words, a clear, 4 beat move.

Again, I have the utmost respect for Buck (and Betty S. as well), but Buck does not have any actual dressage training. Not sure about Betty.

Buck is certainly a gorgeous rider, but if someone is attempting to “bridge” the gap between vaquero riding and classical dressage, he is not the best guy to go to. Eventually you have to decide which way to jump if you desire to get serious about either discipline…because there IS a difference other than just the tack and the spandex…[/QUOTE]

I have to agree with you, and your other post. Why do we need to connect what Buck does with dressage in the first place" What Buck does is create a fantastic ranch and working stock horse. The moves required are nothing like the moves required for dressage horse.
That being said, the spirit of excellent horsemanship is there, which should ,but does not always exist, in dressage today. People use the word Dressage as if it implies some sort of sublime perfection and purity. Hardly. Take Buck for what Buck is, and who he is. He doesn’t need to be something else.

[QUOTE=Wirt;7250593]
I have to agree with you, and your other post. Why do we need to connect what Buck does with dressage in the first place" What Buck does is create a fantastic ranch and working stock horse. The moves required are nothing like the moves required for dressage horse.
That being said, the spirit of excellent horsemanship is there, which should ,but does not always exist, in dressage today. People use the word Dressage as if it implies some sort of sublime perfection and purity. Hardly. Take Buck for what Buck is, and who he is. He doesn’t need to be something else.[/QUOTE]

That is what I posted, several pages back, but didn’t say it that well.

I think that cross training is great for all, horses and riders, but we need to understand the particulars of each discipline will be specific to that one.

One example, I started in this BNT dressage barn and was right off training one horse to do the spanish walk.
Boy, did I hear about it being a big no-no, because it was a disuniting movement and as such didn’t have any place in what we want in a “true” dressage horse trained for what dressage was going to require from that horse.

We may agree or not that we need to train so single mindedly, or that we can introduce other without harm.
The idea behind this is that, if you have a goal in mind and dressage at the higher levels is a very specific goal, that is really where your focus should be.

While there is so much in common with proper riding, a horse is a horse after all, once we get into the technical details of what we want and are doing, then there will be differences and that is ok.

Gentle reminder…‘dressage’ is after all nothing more than the French word for ‘training.’ :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=Beverley;7250632]
Gentle reminder…‘dressage’ is after all nothing more than the French word for ‘training.’ :)[/QUOTE]

Nope, dressage is much more than that.

I grew up where dressage was all training there was, is what you do when you learn to ride and later learn to train horses, so yes, to me it is training itself.
To many, that didn’t grow up with that, no, dressage is a different way of training that they learned, if they were western or gaited riders or whatever.

Once past the basics, dressage definitely becomes a discipline of it’s own, different than even those others that start with dressage training, like jumpers.

[QUOTE=re-runs;7250378]

I have never met Betty S., all I know about her is what I saw on the Buck movie. I just thought I would throw that out there, maybe the reason for few low scores.[/QUOTE]

I have not met her either, and don’t really care about showing, but the reason for the “low” scores may be the part where the horse is a TWH without extravagant movement.

Also, I am old enough to remember when 2 scores of 60% meant you were done with that level. Old AHSA rules. By that rule, Betty S and Murphy are done with 3rd… I really take exception to calling 60% “low”. You only need 2 60% scores at GP to get your Gold Medal. Low scores are below 50%.

Maybe there are those of us who aren’t trying to create a ranch horse, those that like dressage but embrace the approach to /horsemanship/ people like Buck take. No one is trying to say they are the “same”, but that you can take those elements of good horsemanship, of creating a well rounded horse, and incorporate them into developing that well-rounded dressage partner.

My goal is to incorporate the thought, the feel, the timing, the philosophy into riding my horses. Whether we are working on dressage, or learning about banks, drops, water, cows, roping, tarps, picking me up off the fence, leading with quality, dealing with insane warmup arenas at horse shows, dealing with wide open warm ups before cross country, trailer loading, flagging… the list is endless, of course, and it is what I am here for.

I honestly don’t care so much (right now, anyway) about some of the details brought up on this thread (such as which way to back, for example). I already back my horse much more and much better than I did before, and more than anyone I ride with in the English world. It is working for me in how I want it to work.

My contact may not be Buck’s contact, but it’s a heck of a lot closer than the majority of what I see in the competition arena. The way I am asking her to go forward is different than the way I used to ask her to go forward… as per Buck.

I don’t care if Betty Staley ever rode with a “true” dressage trainer, or ever got a ribbon. Some of the horses I see winning in dressage I would not like to be in the company of. I don’t usually like what is getting rewarded these days. I do know she knows a lot, we are on the same page, she is willing to share and has helped me even long distance.

I believe we all have to put our own stamp on our own horses. The biggest thing to me is that we are working WITH the horse and not against him. That people I ride with are starting to see how I get my horse in the water jump for the first time (or fourth time) with no battle (“she’s done this before, shouldn’t she just go IN? Use your stick”… and me still taking the time). Getting asked by a fellow rider who’s horse just kicked out at the whip refusing to go up a tiny bank he’d already done before “What would YOU do?” and me being able to channel Buck or Mindy a bit and give her a solution that (quietly) worked. That was very cool. To have her say “I’m thinking differently about how I’m riding this horse” because of that.

 I have no interest in making a bridle horse.  But I do have interest in everything that Buck has to say, and so far I have yet to hear anything that didn't apply to what I was doing or hoping to do, in some way.

“That being said, the spirit of excellent horsemanship is there, which should ,but does not always exist, in dressage today. People use the word Dressage as if it implies some sort of sublime perfection and purity. Hardly. Take Buck for what Buck is, and who he is. He doesn’t need to be something else.”

Well said.

And lets not forget that there is a BIG difference between haute ecole; classical dressage of yesteryear, and the training for dressage competition of today…as different as apples and oranges. I see that Buck uses quite a few exercises from the old masters such as haunches in, leg yielding, all helping to create a more flexible animal. Why not?
(Dr. Deb has a very interesting article in this months Eclectic Horseman about the spin vs. rollback and the pirouette using drawings of Buck Brannaman as her model.)

It still kills me though when everything sideways in western is called a halfpass.:no::wink:

Remember, modern horsemanship is still evolving and how it goes depends on the acceptance of philosophies. Saddle seat riding actually is an offshoot of Baucherism, believe it or not, and of course grew into something not even resembling where it came from.

Personally what I do; and that encompises both Vaquero horsemanship and dressage, does not conflict with eachother but then, I came from the “old school” because of the teachers that I chose.

Modern competitive dressage is not based on the classical principles of the haute ecole. It is an entirely different creature. Actually it more like saddleseat riding than what La Guerinere wrote about and practiced. But that has been talked about and talked about in the dressage forum. Just put “rollkur” in the search and you will get an education.

Have you ridden with Buck?

[QUOTE=Beverley;7250632]
Gentle reminder…‘dressage’ is after all nothing more than the French word for ‘training.’ :)[/QUOTE]

100% true.

The basics of dressage give you the skills to ride any horse properly, because you are working with what the horse is.

With those basic dressage principles, you can take a colt in it’s first ride and already ask it correctly to move for you the way you want.

That is different than the principles of so much of western riding or gaited riding, because they are after different goals than dressage is.

One example, in dressage training you ask a horse to canter with the inside leg, because as you touch the horse on the side that hind leg comes forward and start the canter depart correctly, physics at work.
Try it on yourself, walking along, poke on your side and you will feel that hip want to come forward in your next stride more strongly.

When I first came to the West, I was able to get a horse in the proper lead regardless of how it was trained, because if you poke there, that is the way any horse will respond.

Others were having trouble getting some horses to take the right lead, Ann Kursinsky has a whole chapter on that problem.
Why is that even a problem, I wondered?
Then I realized people were using the OUTSIDE leg to cue for canter, so the horses were learning to canter from a specific aid, like a trick, not because their body was set to do what asked.

There are important differences in how each discipline does things, each region does things, even in dressage, in Europe, while most is the same, there are some differences and that is fine.

My point, while sensible cross training is a wonderful way to become more skilled (not that sensible to want to, say, train a dressage or cutting or roping or polo horse to pace or big lick) for horses and riders, we really should honor those differences, is what makes what we choose to do at any time that and not something else.:yes: