I always thought the strike off foot for the canter was the outside hind?
Bluey- let me try it again. I am simply noting the origin of the word.
The French phrase for ‘to train a horse’ is ‘dresser un cheval.’
The French word for ‘training’ is ‘dressage.’
It’s really easy to get into the nuances of dressage, the horse sport as it has evolved, etc. But, if I am in France, planning on doing a training my cowpony to rope, I would be saying ‘je vais DRESSER mon cheval.’
Hope that clarifies.
[QUOTE=froglander;7251111]
I always thought the strike off foot for the canter was the outside hind?[/QUOTE]
As the inside comes forward.
When you cue with the outside leg, the stride ends up falling heavily on the inside shoulder, if you didn’t prepare the horse with a half halt.
Fine on a hunter round as the horse canters around, that I think is why that was acceptable there.
[QUOTE=Beverley;7251153]
Bluey- let me try it again. I am simply noting the origin of the word.
The French phrase for ‘to train a horse’ is ‘dresser un cheval.’
The French word for ‘training’ is ‘dressage.’
It’s really easy to get into the nuances of dressage, the horse sport as it has evolved, etc. But, if I am in France, planning on doing a training my cowpony to rope, I would be saying ‘je vais DRESSER mon cheval.’
Hope that clarifies.[/QUOTE]
Yes, you are right.
That is where the word dressage we use today came from.
It is also correct that it has evolved to mean more than just training, but training a certain way and not another one of many ways to train horses out there.
I haven’t ever had a mustang.
I have, however, had the pleasure of riding two horses that were raised outside, in a herd, (pastures measured by square mile section rather than acre) seeing humans but not otherwise handled until they were halter broke. One at two years old, the other at five.
Disposition, basic temperament, ‘easy’ versus ‘difficult’, those will always vary. So there are definitely easy mustangs, easy ‘domestics’, ‘rogue’ mustangs, ‘rogue’ domestics.
That said, I think there is very often a huge difference in handled-since-birth horses, who have had mediocre or poor handling, and very little herd exposure, as compared to herd-raised horses.
If you are Bluey, you have a lot of feel and understanding of how a horse’s mind and body work. So a ‘captivity raised’ colt that has been halter broke at mama’s side, and likes a scratch, really won’t be all that far ahead of a mustang once you gain the trust of the mustang.
If you don’t handle the young horse well, and it learns a few dreadful things like ‘I can move my handler’s feet’ (which is one of the most common things you will ever find in racetrack horses) and ‘I’ll just mentally check out here because I’m being ‘desensitized’ and there’s nothing I can do about it’…then you often get an obedient horse but not one that wants to connect with you.
A ‘wild-raised’ horse will generally TRY to connect with you, to tell you about things, that hey, I’m NOT comfortable here! until you prove to the horse that you’re not listening, or not taking him seriously.
So yes, I think there can be a big difference in wild-raised versus domestic raised, but temperament aside, it is more in the handling of the horse, and the preservation of the horse’s basic horse-ness.
Maybe there hasn’t been enough of a distinction made between “dressage” and “Dressage” in this thread?
And for a canter depart, I had been taught you need to free up the inside shoulder so you aren’t blocking the canter, and that by using your outside leg you are kind of asking that outside leg to step under the body to push off into the canter depart.
I no longer have the book, but the first Cross-Train your Horse book by Jane Savoie , she talks about asking the horse to canter, and how it starts with a commonly taught (I’ve seen it in a number of books anyway) “inside leg on, outside leg back” to ask for the canter, and gets more and more refined as the horse progresses. Maybe the next step is you can ask with just the inside leg, or a scoop with a seatbone, or whatever works for you. Gal that owned a barn where I used to lease a horse mostly rode western and she took outside lessons herself to keep up on things, would have people use their outside leg back to ask for a slight haunches in and then ask for the depart with a slight nudge of the inside leg and release of the inside rein. This again would weight that outside hind so there would be something to push off.
I dunno, I’m still playing with the canter depart on my horse right now.
Personally what I do; and that encompises both Vaquero horsemanship and dressage, does not conflict with eachother but then, I came from the “old school” because of the teachers that I chose.
Thank you for that, re-runs.
There IS a big difference between “classical” dressage (and certainly between modern, competitive dressage) and the vaquero style of ranch riding that Buck teaches.
It is NOT just a change of tack as BB states in his DVD. It just confuses people and does a dis-service to both disciplines to state otherwise.
Yikes.
How a horse moves, correctly, to perform any athletic maneuver with a rider on his back, in a way that keeps him sound well into his 20’s, does not change according to his tack.
Polo, jumping, working cattle, dressage, the horse has three gaits, lateral moves, halts, accelerations, turns.
How you can develop that athleticism, muscle, muscle memory, and most importantly that connection, that joy in performing the maneuvers shared by horse and rider…that has NO division between tack preference or rider wardrobe.
And I will not judge someone’s horse credentials by what they have, or have not won. I will judge them by how the horse feels about their person. And assuming the person has managed to get that horse ‘where he’d rather be with you than anywhere else in the world’ (including his herd), I’m going to judge credentials by how that person can help me get MY horse feeling that way about ME.
DLee, I really love your story about schooling cross-country. Not ‘just’ because you’re ‘showing someone how to do it right’ but rather how you are able, by example, to set something up with a person, as well as a horse…to fix it up so they can find it, and recognize how the horse feels about it. Well done!
Froglander, that is one beautiful bay mustang.
What is rewarded, in today’s Dressage Shows, or today’s Reining futurities, or today’s Whatever Hunter shows, Team Roping, Barrel Racin, is quite often not ‘correct’ according to how a horse can perform athletic maneuvers and stay sound doing so.
It is common as dirt to have horses under 10 years old with joints regularly injected.
If you want to win at any of these shows, you can possibly do so using the ‘classical dressage’, or ‘vaquero’ traditions to develop your horse.
But you’re going to ‘do better’ consulting trainers that have big wins to their credentials. More ribbons. And while some cross training will help a bit, you will certainly get to a point where you are going to have to stick with a particular ‘show’ discipline at its highest ‘levels’, to the exclusion of other ‘methods’.
But if that is your goal, you’re reading the wrong thread.
"If you want to win at any of these shows, you can possibly do so using the ‘classical dressage’, or ‘vaquero’ traditions to develop your horse.
But you’re going to ‘do better’ consulting trainers that have big wins to their credentials. More ribbons. And while some cross training will help a bit, you will certainly get to a point where you are going to have to stick with a particular ‘show’ discipline at its highest ‘levels’, to the exclusion of other ‘methods’.
But if that is your goal, you’re reading the wrong thread. "
Love that Filiabeana…I think that is bang on!
[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7251282]
What is rewarded, in today’s Dressage Shows, or today’s Reining futurities, or today’s Whatever Hunter shows, Team Roping, Barrel Racin, is quite often not ‘correct’ according to how a horse can perform athletic maneuvers and stay sound doing so.
It is common as dirt to have horses under 10 years old with joints regularly injected.
If you want to win at any of these shows, you can possibly do so using the ‘classical dressage’, or ‘vaquero’ traditions to develop your horse.
But you’re going to ‘do better’ consulting trainers that have big wins to their credentials. More ribbons. And while some cross training will help a bit, you will certainly get to a point where you are going to have to stick with a particular ‘show’ discipline at its highest ‘levels’, to the exclusion of other ‘methods’.
But if that is your goal, you’re reading the wrong thread.[/QUOTE]
On the other hand, we need to be aware that, without having other to learn from and compare with and/or compete with, we may end up not knowing what we don’t know we don’t know.
There are plenty of examples of NH clinicians that are utterly clueless about the more technical parts of riding, because they never went there, missed those lessons.
One very well respected one still has his RFD-TV introduction to his program happily doing coke-bottle spins, has not realized yet that a well balanced, correctly spinning horse is supposed to turn over it’s hind end, not swap ends over his middle.
To become more and more educated and keep learning, truly learning, not just thinking we are, we need some other “eyes on the ground”, we need to be getting around, seeing how others do what they do, some we may like, some not, but the rules are there for all and we learn from seeing how others follow them and train for them and where appropriate compete under them.
Horsemanship has advanced by leaps and bounds with the information age, so have plenty of misconceptions, see some of the more extreme goofy things some do.
I think that the better horsemen, no matter what they do, are the ones that can do what the task at hand is, sensible or goofy, in the best way for the horse in front of them and make it look correct and effortless and the horse happy.
I do not believe there is any aid so physically compelling to a horse as to bypass his mind.
There seems to be a law of nature, that the more we learn, the larger our horizons become, the more pause that gives us, as we realize how much more there is out there that we knew and have to catch up with.
I am amazed at how really small what we know and will ever know is, compared with all that is out there to know.
The more questions we get answers for, the more questions those answers bring.
All I know is that horses and the horse world, in all it’s ways, is full of wonders, if you look for them.
To get back on topic here, I will say that comparing what different horses/trainers/disciplines may do is very interesting.
I like to do that while giving each we are comparing their due, not assuming one or the other is automatically better because it may be the one we prefer at that time.
We should not dismiss one because we choose another, because by now it ought to be clear that is the execution that makes what we do right, not what saddle we use.
[QUOTE=Wirt;7250593]
I have to agree with you, and your other post. Why do we need to connect what Buck does with dressage in the first place" What Buck does is create a fantastic ranch and working stock horse. The moves required are nothing like the moves required for dressage horse.
That being said, the spirit of excellent horsemanship is there, which should ,but does not always exist, in dressage today. People use the word Dressage as if it implies some sort of sublime perfection and purity. Hardly. Take Buck for what Buck is, and who he is. He doesn’t need to be something else.[/QUOTE]
Agree totally. I think many of his principals can be completely embraced by riders of ALL disciplines. He is an elegant rider and I admire so much about his horsemanship.
However I AM disappointed in him “dissing” dressage…sounds like something Parelli would do…:no:.
There are good & bad riders in ALL disciplines and I’m guessing that would include western riding…BB has often said he thinks alot of George Morris. Well, watch GM instructing a clinic full of young riders…he will NOT be telling them the same thing as BB would.
Why? Because their styles of riding ARE different. Period. Save yourself some headaches and admire BB because of what he is…but if you are actually trying to learn DRESSAGE, neither he nor BS are the people to teach you.
Then you are not training the horse to do anything but be your buddy. If that is goal, than that is wonderful, but if you actually want to ridr horse CORRECTLY in a certain discipline, you will have to go deeper than just how a horse FEELS about you and if they want to hang around w/you.
As for developing a fitness routine…I’ve watched all of BB’s videos, including his 7 Clinics, and I’ve found no regimes in there that outline a fitness routine “to keep a horse sound well into their 20’s”. Did I miss it? (BTW, many dressage horses stay sound well into their teens, while many western horses do not, so not sure what the point is there).
Contrary to people who like to believe otherwise, there is no ONE ANSWER. Not to the question “What is correct riding?” or “how do you develop a (fill in the blank here) riding horse?”
“Correct” depends on the discipline. One has to compare apples to apples after all.
Just in the short amt of time I have been following the sport (about 20 years) there has been quite an evolution in the style(s) of dressage riding that has been winning at the International level.
This sort of thing is not limited to just dressage. I’ve heard from experienced western riders that what we see today in the WP ring is WAAYY different that what was winning some 20-30 yrs ago. Fashions change.
It was the popularity of the Anky V.G. and the “crank & spank” school of dressage riding that first made me look at folks like BB, who promoted more lightness. I was not alone in thinking this made for a very ugly picture despite the fact the judges thought she was god’s give to the sport.
Luckily, many, MANY people disagreed, and they spoke up. Now (thank goodness for the sport), things are slowly turning around and riders like Carl Hester & Steffen Peters are starting to be the ones who are emulated (about time, IMHO).
However, if you say that BB is riding more like the “classical” guys of yore…I say, “No, he doesn’t.”
Look at any videos of riders of the SRS (about as classical as you can get) and then watch BB ride a finished horse. While there are SOME similarities, there are far more differences.
And none of this is “good” or “bad”…just different. I consider Steffen Peters to be a very good, considerate dressage rider and I’m certainly not alone in my views. In general, he is held in very high regard by most – in both the areas of actual dressage riding and simply as a horseman.
Here is a clip he posted himself on YT…he is schooling his 6yr old mare “Rosie” (Ravel’s replacement).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkx_fb00k2s
I can guarantee he knows where every one of Rosie’s feet are at any given moment, he is perfectly in balance w/his horse at all times…I’m sure there are other facets of BB’s training philosophies he agrees with and/or even practices.
Both are (IMHO) superior horsemen. Both have much to offer ANY “Student of the Horse”. But if you want to learn dressage CORRECTLY you go to SP, not BB.
If I want to know how to teach a horse to do a spin, I would ask BB. If I wanted to know how to teach a horse to do a canter pirouette, I would go to SP.
As for BS, her show record is not what would keep me from respecting her as a dressage teacher. It’s the fact that she did not learn from a Dressage Master. Simple as that. These things ARE passed down from Master to Teacher, right?
I would not go to George Morris for advice on how to make a solid working ranch horse. If someone asked you for resources on how to raise/train/fit-up a good, dependable cowhorse, would you recommend his books or videos? Of course not! He would be pretty low on the list of folks you would list.
So why expect BB or Ray Hunt to teach you how to"make" a dressage horse?
All of these men are master horsemen, but…
Then you are not training the horse to do anything but be your buddy.
Wow.
All I can say is, you apparently have never had a horse do everything he possibly can to help you get something done. (And by something, I don’t mean deliver the feed to his bucket.)
The ‘exercises’ are not only about getting a horse using his body properly.
If you go back to Ray Hunt, he is talking about a troubled horse, saying that ‘If his mind is troubled, his muscles and his tendons and his ligaments are troubled, too’. The horse’s mind is as important as his athletic development. These horses stay sound not just because they’re using themselves properly, but because the are not ever getting ‘burned out’, going through the motions.
And again, if you think that having the horse ‘where he’d rather be with you than anywhere else in the world’ is about the horse ‘being your buddy’, you’re in the wrong thread.
I’m so sorry.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7252086]
THere is a clip he posted himself on YT…he is schooling his 6yr old mare “Rosie” (Ravel’s replacement).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkx_fb00k2s[/QUOTE]
I’ve been following this thread with interest, as it’s something I’ve wondered about a lot. I’ve ridden with Ed Dabney, who has worked a lot with different dressage instructors.
Can anyone tell if Rosie in that video is barefoot? I know the Peters(es?) have taken a lot of their horses barefoot. Either way, she is beautiful. I do wonder about her front legs slanting back under her (base narrow) in the piaffe. I’ve always wanted to ask someone like him, or Carl Hester, why that happens. From what I’ve read, I thought the front legs should be straight down?
Not trying to de-rail the thread!
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7252086]
Then you are not training the horse to do anything but be your buddy. If that is goal, than that is wonderful, but if you actually want to ridr horse CORRECTLY in a certain discipline, you will have to go deeper than just how a horse FEELS about you and if they want to hang around w/you.
As for developing a fitness routine…I’ve watched all of BB’s videos, including his 7 Clinics, and I’ve found no regimes in there that outline a fitness routine “to keep a horse sound well into their 20’s”. Did I miss it? (BTW, many dressage horses stay sound well into their teens, while many western horses do not, so not sure what the point is there).
Contrary to people who like to believe otherwise, there is no ONE ANSWER. Not to the question “What is correct riding?” or “how do you develop a (fill in the blank here) riding horse?”
“Correct” depends on the discipline. One has to compare apples to apples after all.
Just in the short amt of time I have been following the sport (about 20 years) there has been quite an evolution in the style(s) of dressage riding that has been winning at the International level.
This sort of thing is not limited to just dressage. I’ve heard from experienced western riders that what we see today in the WP ring is WAAYY different that what was winning some 20-30 yrs ago. Fashions change.
It was the popularity of the Anky V.G. and the “crank & spank” school of dressage riding that first made me look at folks like BB, who promoted more lightness. I was not alone in thinking this made for a very ugly picture despite the fact the judges thought she was god’s give to the sport.
Luckily, many, MANY people disagreed, and they spoke up. Now (thank goodness for the sport), things are slowly turning around and riders like Carl Hester & Steffen Peters are starting to be the ones who are emulated (about time, IMHO).
However, if you say that BB is riding more like the “classical” guys of yore…I say, “No, he doesn’t.”
Look at any videos of riders of the SRS (about as classical as you can get) and then watch BB ride a finished horse. While there are SOME similarities, there are far more differences.
And none of this is “good” or “bad”…just different. I consider Steffen Peters to be a very good, considerate dressage rider and I’m certainly not alone in my views. In general, he is held in very high regard by most – in both the areas of actual dressage riding and simply as a horseman.
Here is a clip he posted himself on YT…he is schooling his 6yr old mare “Rosie” (Ravel’s replacement).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkx_fb00k2s
I can guarantee he knows where every one of Rosie’s feet are at any given moment, he is perfectly in balance w/his horse at all times…I’m sure there are other facets of BB’s training philosophies he agrees with and/or even practices.
Both are (IMHO) superior horsemen. Both have much to offer ANY “Student of the Horse”. But if you want to learn dressage CORRECTLY you go to SP, not BB.
If I want to know how to teach a horse to do a spin, I would ask BB. If I wanted to know how to teach a horse to do a canter pirouette, I would go to SP.
As for BS, her show record is not what would keep me from respecting her as a dressage teacher. It’s the fact that she did not learn from a Dressage Master. Simple as that. These things ARE passed down from Master to Teacher, right?
I would not go to George Morris for advice on how to make a solid working ranch horse. If someone asked you for resources on how to raise/train/fit-up a good, dependable cowhorse, would you recommend his books or videos? Of course not! He would be pretty low on the list of folks you would list.
So why expect BB or Ray Hunt to teach you how to"make" a dressage horse?
All of these men are master horsemen, but…[/QUOTE]
What you are talking about is content versus context. The content of a universal horsemanship is there, understanding the horse, what makes him tick, how to keep him from getting troubled.How to get him to be with you, nd how to get with him.
Where many get bogged down with this is having no reference point, no context. The context would be what you actually want to do with all of this. The real context of what Buck does is related to a stock horse, and a horse that can rope cattle, and the moves that go with that. So if you have a series of movements you are working with, if is being able to do them with some form and quality and smoothness and in a harmonious way. That could be the content of good dressage too. But the context of dressage are very prticular movements. There is a form to a half pass, for instance. You can get it done, and it could be ugly, or you could do it with all the other qualities of good connection, and calmness, and through-ness, and all of the rest that go with a good movement. But the movement is specific. The backing exercises of Bucks, for instance,are important to a stock horse, because we want him to get on his hocks fluidly so he can sweep over the other way, and stop a cow, hold a cow, or help you rope a cow. The content is that the horse can help you do these things. But the context is different than what a jumping horse needs to do, and understand, or some other discipline. There is no reason you cannot do all of these things with the same horse, if you understand the movements and context in which to use them. But the exercises become meaningless without application. It is the application many do not understand.
Wirt, again well said.
I like to get horses from unusual places, the race track, or someone elses reject. My last two were pmu foals, they were only 3 months old when I got them. We used to call them our 'grab bag ponies" because even though you get to see them on a video at 2 months old or so, you still don`t know what you are getting until you see them before you when they arrive and then it takes awhile to get to know them.
The two that I got last time were totally different and at about 4 years old, they told me what they were going to be best at. One is a Cheval/tb cross and one is a Cheval/tb/percheron cross. One was very cowey and agile and the other screamed “dressage horse” because of his lovely movement. They both got the same foundation, they both learned the same basics. Suppleness in mind and body is not a bad thing no matter what sport you are going to pursue.
A horse is a horse, the tack the horse wears does not make them anything else but an equine. All horses, as my native American friend said, “Come with their original instructions” (instinct). The idea is to work with and understand those original instructions the best you can, it is what makes them a horse compared to any other species.
Now, if one plans on competing, well then that person would have to learn the rules of that particular competition and they would then go to the person that could best teach them the rules and what the criteria was to compete but…how much easier would it be if the horse was already committed to their rider and the rider committed to their horse and the two already had an ideal communication going between them.
So may I add the sum of my thoughts…and opinion…that the teachings of Tom Dorrance and Bill Dorrance is the best way to base that foundation upon because it works with the horses “original instructions” better than any other philosophy I know and I am an old sod and have been around the block of disciplines and started horses other ways before I came upon this type of horsemanship.
So well said, wirt, so very well said.
I’m a bit confused because I don’t think anyone here has said “I want to study with Buck Brannaman so he can teach me dressage.” 
I thought the question was about how to take useful bits of teaching from BB (or someone else who is a good horseman, but this thread’s title has his name on it) and apply it to dressage training (or really any other discipline). The tools that he offers are extensive, yes. But if one is interested in studying horsemanship (not the “NH”, but all-around horsemanship that includes diet, exercise, management, veterinary care, hoof care, tack fitting, physical development, etc.), then BB would be just one of a number of people to learn from.
It is easy to say “dressage horses stay sound into their teens and western horses are broke down by ten” - yet I’ve seen plenty of dressage horses ruined by poor training methods, endless 20-m circles, being holed-up in box stalls 23 hours a day, etc. Let’s not say that one discipline is inherently better or worse than the other, because it is the application of horsemanship in any discipline that dictates the success of the horse (and I don’t necessarily mean in the show ring).
