Such a good feeling to be invited !!!
I never take that for granted.
Their invitation, my gratitude…creates the atmosphere for both of us for the ride that comes after. There is no better way to start out a ride.
You put that so well, to be invited.
And then your own gratitude, wow.
When you can express those things to each other, and both parties can ‘hear’ the intentions for each other, that is pure magic.
[QUOTE=froglander;7257627]
He’ll back however far, he just tucks his nose so much. Do I ask for less steps? More steps? Last night I kind of was trying to ‘hold’ his nose from tucking in, but would release as soon he took a couple steps back. He looked annoyed…[/QUOTE]
Yes, ask for fewer steps and go slower. You can reward just one step with one leg going backward. Go so slowly with increasing the pressure of your “ask” with the rope that you can let go and stop when the horse moves a foot.
Part of ignoring his head is not fixing his nose’s position. During some effort, he will “make a mistake” and not give first/too much with his head and move a foot first. Praise that profusely.
By the way, this “broke in the face, but not from the shoulders back” is what I’m always worried about.
[QUOTE=aktill;7257660]
I’d wager that the fact that he looked annoyed is because he thinks he’s being really good and answering your questions. In his mind, the backing steps are secondary to making sure he yields to the bit…ie, the bit question is the most important.
As such, this isn’t about backing. It’s about the fact that his feet are more sticky then his head. When his feet free up, he won’t need to overbend because his head won’t get trapped between the rein and his hindquarter. It’s not about speed, it’s about the degree of yield.
If you want to look at it from a backup perspective, develop the ability to back him without a rein cue.
If you want to look at the bigger picture, I suspect you’re rewarding him for yielding his head too much. You’ve rewarded him too often for giving his head without getting to his feet OR his feet just aren’t freed up enough to match the yield in his head and neck. As such, you might not solve the overbending issue by working on backing.
More questions have to be answered by yielding to your body cues before this will go away.[/QUOTE]
This is a really, really important point that I think can get missed in the teaching of all this.
What does the rider reward? When do you let go (with your hand, or allow the horse to stand still or walk forward on a long rein or whatever)? What did you feel in his body that you rewarded? What does “soft feel” mean to you in terms of physical sensation? Is it in your hand, what you are sitting on, a degree of responsiveness?
IMO, all the talk about feel and lightness causes our manually dextrous species to focus on the feel in our hands. But that’s not the part of the horse that matters. Seeing the Brannaman types do their stuff, it seems to me that what matters is the hind end. They talk about feeling what the feet are doing. That’s a good (and different) start on the problem of getting riders to feel what a horse is doing with his whole body.
[QUOTE=mvp;7258174]
What does the rider reward? When do you let go (with your hand, or allow the horse to stand still or walk forward on a long rein or whatever)? What did you feel in his body that you rewarded? What does “soft feel” mean to you in terms of physical sensation? Is it in your hand, what you are sitting on, a degree of responsiveness?
IMO, all the talk about feel and lightness causes our manually dextrous species to focus on the feel in our hands. But that’s not the part of the horse that matters. Seeing the Brannaman types do their stuff, it seems to me that what matters is the hind end. They talk about feeling what the feet are doing. That’s a good (and different) start on the problem of getting riders to feel what a horse is doing with his whole body.[/QUOTE]
Sometimes I do let go because of what I feel in my hands. But what I’m looking to release for isn’t the feeling of “squeeze on rein, tuck nose” - what I feel in my hands is a reflection of what’s going on in the whole body. For example, the feeling of lifting at the base of the neck and self-carriage. It does filter to my hands, but it also comes over the back and through my seat and into this sort of floating feeling. So I don’t exclude my hands from the feeling equation. And like most other people, I probably rely on them too much, but they are a mode for receiving feedback that is most readily available and understandable, especially when first starting to understand the concept of feel.
“IMO, all the talk about feel and lightness causes our manually dextrous species to focus on the feel in our hands. But that’s not the part of the horse that matters.”
The part of the horse that most matters is the inside. See my post earlier about working my young horse over the cavaletti and what it meant to him for me to let my energy come down out of my body at the right moment. It is that “thing” that Joe Wolter is so good at and talks about and demonstrates in his clinics. If you watch him ride, he is doing it over and over again so the horse is always hunting up that good feeling and getting feedback from Joe. I am sure it is something that Tom and Bill D. passed along to him. It is absolutely a lovely thing to watch. Makes you feel good…well…right down to your toes.:winkgrin:
Most people dont see the big thing that this is to a horse. Let me tell you, ITS a BIG thing.
It does filter to my hands, but it also comes over the back and through my seat and into this sort of floating feeling.
I`m not there to see it but it sure sounds like THAT is your awareness of the circle of energy that I was talking about.
Yes, we do too much with our hands…we are humans afterall, and we tend to try to manipulate the part of the horse we can see, the front. If one can begin to feel the whole horse, then one gets a feeling for balance and the circle of energy/ circle of aids. We become less dependant on our hands when we consider the whole horse.
Some good things here to ponder. 
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Ray-Hunt-Horseman/375889052428523?directed_target_id=0
Been lurking on this thread for awhile. It is interesting, cuz I am much more into working off of FEEL. My friend in an upper Dressage rider, that I am not sure has much understanding of that.
She rides very well, just NOT the way I would want or do.
Not sure if this helps the thread, but will mention some stuff from the Martin Black clinic I just audited. I have been to several of his clinics, along w/several other very good horseman, audited Buck, ridden w/Mark Schwarm several times over last summer. Plus, I take lessons from a VERY good horsewoman, so, I have been exposed to much of this often.
I think the main difference between FEEL and Dressage riders (making huge generalizations, I understand) is as Martin Black speaks of, giving RELIEF and RELEASE.
I thought this was easy to understand. Most people know of RELEASE. That is what people do and feel.
RELIEF is what the horses feel.
Imagine someone poking you in the arm w/a pencil, over and over. RELEASE is the time between the pokes. Could be long or short, but the pencil could still poke you. You are still aware and worried about getting poked again.
RELIEF is if the person put down the pencil and walked away. The chance of getting poked isnt there anymore.
Sooo, Martin Black’s point is not to just release your horse, but REALLY offer relief, ie, QUIT NAGGING.
I really like Fil saying she may quit 100 times in ONE ride. That is really true.
Let your horse relax and not worry about getting socked in the mouth or his side.
So, it really isnt just the contact, but way your horse can perceive your future actions.
I do NOT think a horse can have enough RELIEF.
Probably everyone knows and does this, but you ask once nicely, then if no result, ASK in a way that WILL get a result. No nagging, make it black and white, after a few times, your horse will not wait until the 2nd time.
That is much better for the horse than asking, asking, asking, hence, nagging. That just makes the horse dull.
Spend time riding w/our reins dropped, start slow, work on getting response from your seat, energy and legs. You can always grab your reins, but will help to quit just depending on them.
Martin probably said over a 100 times “work on accurancy, THEN add speed”.
Those were a few things from the clinic that may or may not help people
PP - what I would try would be riding w/a VERY loose rein, like on the buckle, reins swinging side to side. Would just direct direction by lifting rein w/a straight arm up and out, like you were doing the breast stroke. Once horse follows the feel, drop rein, then use your legs to have the horse reach up under himself.
I would totally ignore the head, just get him used to moving out w/his hind end. I agree that horse sounds bottled up and moving more on his forehand.
After several rides, you could start to use the reins lightly, but not if horse is still tucking his head, that would show me that I still need to get him used to moving out on a loose rein.
This will help you get used to using your legs instead of your hands. That alone will help him reach up underneath himself.
Just a thought… Good Luck!
[QUOTE=re-runs;7258318]
Some good things here to ponder.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Ray-Hunt-Horseman/375889052428523?directed_target_id=0[/QUOTE]
If you go down the page a bit there’s a video of Joe Wolter speaking and he said something like “no matter how bad I wanted it, I was still thinking of other things.” I know I have that problem, myself.
Edited to add: Look at the picture of Ray below that video. His horse’s legs match the cow’s legs! Tell me that a ride like that wouldn’t do well in the dressage arena. Soft, forward, straight, engaged, not overflexed, lovely rider position, “submission,” attention. Considering that most riders don’t even get to second level, I should think anyone would be pleased to present such a lovely picture.
When I was working with one trainer, I struggled with this because I remember learning as I grew up doing h/j to release when the horse softened. Using the mouth as an example, I would tend to do that. Give a half halt, or have a period of contact, and release when the horse responded. The dressage trainer I was with at the time taught me not to release. She specifically instructed to maintain (what to me seemed to be heavy) contact and that the horse would find his own relief by releasing his brace. I suppose it is possible that I completely misunderstood her, but I don’t think so. I really didn’t enjoy riding that way and felt like it wasn’t fair to my horse. Her opinion was that releasing (a la BB’s “soft feel” exercise) was just teaching the horse to set his head and give a sort of programmed response, but that he wouldn’t hold it because the circle of energy wasn’t coming through his body, it was just in his head. I can understand what she’s saying on one hand, but when I put the concept of releasing back into my riding, my horses improved more quickly and our rides were much more pleasant.
[QUOTE=Shermy;7258333]
PP - what I would try would be riding w/a VERY loose rein, like on the buckle, reins swinging side to side. Would just direct direction by lifting rein w/a straight arm up and out, like you were doing the breast stroke. Once horse follows the feel, drop rein, then use your legs to have the horse reach up under himself.
I would totally ignore the head, just get him used to moving out w/his hind end. I agree that horse sounds bottled up and moving more on his forehand.
After several rides, you could start to use the reins lightly, but not if horse is still tucking his head, that would show me that I still need to get him used to moving out on a loose rein.
This will help you get used to using your legs instead of your hands. That alone will help him reach up underneath himself.
Just a thought… Good Luck![/QUOTE]
Is this addressed to me? I don’t think I said I was having a specific problem that makes your comment understandable to me.
I start all of my rides on the buckle, seeing how light I can use the rein aids (if at all). Of course I’m not perfect, but I strive to improve daily. What is really fun is going on trail rides and looping my reins around the horn of my saddle (well, my old one that I sold - I have a new one on order!) and steering through the forest and doing lateral work and transitions with no reins. I’m pretty sure my friend thinks I’m boring because I don’t go galloping hell bent for leather down the trail. Maybe I am, since I can find so much to do at just the walk…:winkgrin:
Sorry, I may have gotten the name wrong, was for the whoever’s horse was overbent.
AND YES!!! That is how my friend rides and most Dressage riders at my barn. That said, my friend does trail ride and plays w/cows, so is probably on the calmer side of Dressage, no rollkur, lol.
I just wish she could FEEL the feeling of her horse feeling back to her, her to him, etc. It is when the horse feels the RELIEF that most the time, he will start licking and chewing. It feels good to him, he is getting a hit of endorfins and replaying it in his brain. That is how they really learn.
As Martin said, horses may learn 10% from the release, but will learn 90% from the RELIEF.
The Dressage people I see rarely release, let alone, offer RELIEF.
I wish they could know what they are missing, but like my friend, most are pretty closed minded 
I think their horses just learn to brace, and in time, that is normal for the riders. I would NOT want to feel a brace, period. I like light, soft and responsive to my body.
Edited to add: Look at the picture of Ray below that video. His horse’s legs match the cow’s legs! Tell me that a ride like that wouldn’t do well in the dressage arena. Soft, forward, straight, engaged, not overflexed, lovely rider position, “submission,” attention. Considering that most riders don’t even get to second level, I should think anyone would be pleased to present such a lovely picture.
I agree, Pocket. Lovely picture.
Too many people don’t understand these reins- they are not ‘completely released’ (ie thrown away) nor are they ‘constant contact’ (ie x pounds of pressure).
If the horse is feeling back to you, through the reins, he has his ‘circle of energy’ through his feet and body. Ray’s horse is feeling back to Ray, through the reins. While you can have this contact physically, most people aren’t quite up to it. You have to have only enough contact to feel the bit on top of the horse’s tongue, not enough to pull his lips back. Most people don’t have the ‘chops’ to physically do that. But it is possible. And it is NOT ‘contact’ as most Dressage folk understand and use the term. If you do not provide a release, a relief, a ‘right’, the horse will set his head in a permanent brace. And that is, by definition, a mechanical, programmed response in which the horse’s energy is blocked and cannot flow through his whole body.
It isn’t ‘loose’ reins. It isn’t ‘tight’ reins. And it isn’t some perfect balance between ‘loose’ and ‘tight’…it is the place where the horse has released any braces in his head (tongue, lips) and neck (and really, through his whole body) and is using the reins and bit (or sidepull or bosal) to feel back to YOU and your hands.
The feeling is so extraordinary that I cannot help but think that many of the ‘Dressage Masters’ were trying to describe this, as the ‘correct contact’ that you cannot achieve collection without.
Also, I worry about the emphasis on getting that “soft feel”–especially in the bridle-- without emphasis on making the horse strong behind. Doesn’t this open the door to teaching a horse to stay behind the bit (as a dressagist would put it) so that you can’t ever use your hand/aid up front to influence the shoulders?
Mvp, if you have the soft feel right, you will have the brace gone in the horse’s whole body. And therefore, he will be able to bring his life right up as you ask. That IS accessing the horse’s strength, without a brace.
And you should be able to use a ‘dressage’ half-halt, any time, when you need it. Just a ‘hey, listen to me here!’ or a ‘come back to me mentally’ or a ‘bring your shoulders up’…I don’t see a conflict at all.
And while I HOPE I can ‘quit’ 100 times during a ride, re-runs gets the credit for that one.
Buck talked in the last clinic I rode in, about NOT ‘training’ your horse. Your horse should not ever feel drilled, trained. He should participate, learn, and then go on to the next thing.
I’m working on getting my horse to ‘give’ to me, mentally and physically, bunches and bunches of times during a ride.
Been thinking about the stuff in this thread a lot lately, hoping no one minds if I bring it back up?
I have a sinking feeling I tend to “drill” things too much I mostly just have an arena to ride in, especially since I usually ride after work when it’s dark. So I spend a lot of time going in circles (with lots of changes of direction) because I don’t know what else to /do/ I’d like to feel more comfortable loping around the arena, but there’s always this little voice wondering “what if he spooks again?” and so I tend to canter in circles in the better lit part of the arena. They aren’t circle after circle in the same spot over and over, it’s more wandering circles as I work on getting him to turn by stepping under with his inside hind.
Last night did have some fun with backing, and by the end his feet weren’t sticking when I’d ask him to back! So for those who had offered suggestions on his backing and getting overbent, I think we’ve made progress.
I guess I was just wondering if anyone had suggestions on how to keep arena riding from becoming “drills and constant training”?
Thanks
First off, you can’t think of it YOURSELF as drills or you’ll pass that feeling along to your horse. Having watched other folks, I firmly believe that most people who have horses that “hate riding indoors” are actually horses who have people that hate riding indoors. While there is a certain amount of impulsion that comes from following a trail, no doubt, a good rider can create most of that in an arena too.
One thing you need to do is to give your horse a series of little jobs to do. Wandering around in circles chasing a particular feel is okay to a point, but try to make up little tasks to do. If you want to work on stepping over behind, even opening the arena gate or stepping over to pick up a slicker or jacket works fine too, after all.
Next (and I sympathize here), you can’t ride with a “what if he spooks again” thought. It sucks to hear, I know, and having a horse with a little bit of a bolt in him, I get it. Mine hasn’t done that in YEARS, and yet I got a little behind the motion a few days ago, he took off, and I hit the dirt HARD. I ache ALL over right now, but I’m getting back on tonight and riding like it didn’t happen.
Why? Because it’s part of riding. Not in a macho sort of way, but in a way that acknowledges the horse’s needs for leadership. Ray Hunt once said something to the end that, before you step up into the stirrup, you have to be 100% okay with the horse doing absolutely anything. If you’re not, you’re likely to get in trouble. You may not be able to ride it, but you’re okay with horse doing it if he feels he has to. It’s not something I can personally claim to be able to do to the degree I want to, but I strive towards that goal.
In a nutshell, if you have a thought of spooking, your horse may well start out fine and then say “hmm…mum’s worried, and so I must be missing something worth worrying about!”. You can create a “spooked at nothing” reaction like this.
In terms of spicing it up, why not get one of the 101 Western or Dressage excercise books? Those can be good for ideas. Even on the “just doing circles” front, why not see if you can get your counterbends as good as your regular bend circles, with no “hitch” in between? There’s lots to do.
If you’re worried about taking off down the long side, just start riding circles with tiny (and eventually increasing) flat middles down the long side (ie, add a stride of straight when you hit the rail). Build up to a full lap slowly. Nothing wrong with circles, because after all, they make it easier for the horse to stay in balance.
You’re in an arena. It’s not like the horse can run you into traffic on a road if he spooks. He’s confined to the arena- embrace it and use it. Challenge yourself to drop those reins and see how good your leg and seat are at steering the horse in serpentines and such. Good for sharpening your skills and for enhancing communication with your horse. Likewise see if you can get downward transitions without touching those reins- all parts of getting that soft feel. Challenge yourself to make geometric shapes of any kind. Ride the diagonals, see if without the reins you can pick a spot where you want your horse’s left or right front hoof to touch and see if you can consistently meet that ‘target’ just by riding correctly. I find, when I challenge myself to examine my position and aids at the three gaits, and focus on ‘me,’ not the horse, that the horse in turn focuses on carrying me and responding to the aids, not worrying about the quail lurking in the bushes. But spooks are a learning opportunity too, should they arise, if as is often the case there is one horse eating side or corner to an arena, it’s great to use that to improve both rider and horse. Things like doing serpentines at walk and trot, can you keep them consistent and keep the horse paying attention to you through that area, if the horse wants to cut that corner, just work your way back to it periodically and see if you can get him to bend and move laterally toward that corner. things like that.
I admit I hate arena riding and so yeah, my gelding feeds off that, we’d both rather go admire views. Curiously though my little mare really likes repetitive work in the arena, which is to say, not necessarily backing 20 times in a row or turns on haunches incessantly, but repeating those movements as we work on or off the rail around the ring. I do have to change it up constantly with her because she is a little anticipater.
I don’t go out to the arena with the idea of “drilling” things, more with the idea of “practicing”? I enjoy riding, and working towards improving, so I don’t usually get bored in the arena that often really.
Maybe I could set some cones up or something to give direction a little more focus? There are usually 4 jumps set up in the arena that I will practice turning around.
I do have the 101 Dressage exercises book, I even have the Kindle version of it I realized yesterday so I can get to it from my phone while at the barn.
We have a good sized outdoor arena at the barn where I board, and there are lights, but only part of the arena is well lit. I have no problem trotting around the whole thing, it’s just cantering he gets a little zoomy in some corners, or he feels like he wants to glom onto the rail, and one time kind of cantering across the back part of it off the rail he zigged and I zagged and while I’ve gotten a lot of my confidence when it comes to cantering back from that, I still get a little nervous unless we are riding in the daylight on the weekends. Guess it’s one of those things I just need to keep working on, eh?
That gives me some ideas, thank you
How big is your arena? Is it a dressage court or a jump arena? Do you have tools at your disposal (jump standards, poles, cavaletti)? There are all sorts of fun things you can do!
If you are worried about spooking, do you do groundwork first? If not, I suggest starting with that. I only do w-t in my groundwork, but it is more than enough to get Mac mentally and physically warmed up if I think we might need it. Circles with proper bend, stepping over with the hind, moving the forehand, figure 8s (took me a while to figure this one out but I picked it up at a Bryan Neubert clinic), backing, transitions, modified leg yields, dropping the head, flexions, shoulder in, haunches in, small circles at a letter (then back to going straight, then back to a small circle), working over poles . . . I do all of that in-hand and it is really helpful for getting the brain in the right place and getting the body to soften. Some days I’ll use all of it in 20 minutes or so, and some days I’ll just check in and do a couple things, and some days I may not use it at all.
I always start my rides on a loose rein and do moving forehand / moving haunches turns - first focusing on one, then focusing on the other, then putting them together. Then I work on smaller circles (10 m or so) with a bend and counter-bend (work in true bend in one direction, and through a figure 8 keep that same bend - which becomes a counter-bend - and do a circle in the other direction). Some TOF, TOH, halting, backing, walking. Flexions while standing, flexions while walking. Back to a TOH. Leg yield, SI, HI. Heck, I could spend all my time doing exercises at the walk and work for an hour! I don’t like to stay on the circle, so I use the whole arena for my work . . . but my whole arena isn’t very big so it isn’t like we can get into too much trouble.
With regard to the spooking thing, I get that. Mac finds silly things to spook at . . . like the orange tabby cat that lurks in the bushes, or the bunny rabbit hiding under a tree, or the deer tromping through the deer trail. While it isn’t fun, I assume it is probably going to happen, but we’ll get through it and over it and then we can go on with work. The good thing about him is he gets over it pretty quickly. I have learned to go from a passenger holding on and hoping for the best to a rider taking control and managing the situation, sometimes preventing a spook, but not always.
To get away from the drilling feeling, put some variety into your ride. Spend a whole ride at the walk and see what you can come up with - you’ve got options to move forward, back, side, side. How many different ways can you put that together in a gymnastic workout? Set up some ground poles a la the wheel of death or cloverleaf pattern and see how many ways you can change it up. Think of it as playing, not drilling or training. How can you make it fun for both of you?
Enjoy that cute horse of yours!!!
It /is/ more fun when we play around with putting stuff together. Like the other night a couple other people at the barn were riding too, and after I was playing with walking down the rail, stopping, backing, 1/4 turn while backing and then walking the front end around the rest of the way to face the opposite direction of when I’d stopped and then trotting off, one gal asked if he’d go from backing straight into a canter, so of course I had to try it. I think Cody had fun with it. He also likes following the geese that sometimes hang out at the barn around the arena, lol.
As for spooking, for him, it’s more stuff on the ground. Like a random stick/branch that he happens to step on, or lines from something dragging. The canter spook that dumped me on the ground I’ve still never figured out what it actually was he spooked at, had felt like we were having a nice canter around, and then all of a sudden there was no horse under me And ground poles, it’s like, the first time or two that we go over them in a ride (even if he’s gone over them before I get on) it’s like he’s surprised to find them under his nose. Guess I will just need to work on that more.
The arena is pretty good sized, slightly more rectangle than square, not sure of actual dimensions though. I’d say it’s big enough to fit two standard dressage rings (20x60) side by side plus some maybe?
I don’t get bored riding in an arena, either. Nor do I differentiate between what I do in an arena and what I do outside (unless I’m doing an assigned task with the horse). I also don’t do exercises, per se.
I ride a horse the way you’d polish a diamond. I look around for the rough spot and fix it…. again and again. That means I find a brace and remove it. That might be in my hand, that might be heavy to my leg. I ride whatever shape or speed takes care of that. I often think about what a horse is doing with his legs (or feet) in order to create that “lean” I feel on a hand or a leg (of mine).
When the horse is good, right in “the box” of my aids, I leave him alone. Then I might ask him if he can keep that balanced lightness while we go faster or slower, bend more or less, go sideways or change gaits.
Really, that’s all I do every day on every horse everywhere. Learning particular exercises is useful only insofar as it tells me what movements with the horse might best polish whatever edge of the diamond I think I need to work on.
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