The Dressage - Brannaman nexus: Can we talk about particulars?

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7250302]

Buck is certainly a gorgeous rider, but if someone is attempting to “bridge” the gap between vaquero riding and classical dressage, he is not the best guy to go to. Eventually you have to decide which way to jump if you desire to get serious about either discipline…because there IS a difference other than just the tack and the spandex…[/QUOTE]

That bridge/nexus/comparison thing was my fault-- and the reason for starting this thread.

My intention in learning anything from the vaquero guys was to get different pedagogy (and perhaps some difference exercises for the horse) than classical dressage offers. What I take from classical dressage is the biomechanical stuff.

To be more specific (but also to speak in some short-hand stereotypes).

I want a horse to be uphill, adjustable, symmetrical and light. I take this goal and feel from dressage, but I had assumed that vaquero-style bridle horses would give the same feel in the body.

I don’t want to have many pounds of pressure in my hand (like some styles of dressage, but not all of 'em). And I really don’t want to grind around on a 20 m circle fussing about this and that small change until the horse just.doesn’t.care. any more. Again, not all dressage does this, but IME too many lessons are taught this way. (And another thing! I don’t see how a clinic totaling 6 hours of work for the horse in one day won’t end in the horse being unable to deliver hind end engagement at the end the way you’d want. But that’s another can of worms).

My point in providing this context was to explain why I started this thread. Y’all’s willingness to get down to a direct comparison between Brannaman-style horsemanship and classical dressage has helped me remember my questions. Remember, too, that I’m not interested in bashing of either side. It’s just not helpful.

That said, here’s my main question:

How do the people doing the Brannaman-style exercises strengthen the hind end enough to do some actual work-- like canter in self-carriage?

I have to say that more traditional dressage work has done more to strengthen the little grade horses I’m riding than has the Brannaman stuff.

Also, I worry about the emphasis on getting that “soft feel”–especially in the bridle-- without emphasis on making the horse strong behind. Doesn’t this open the door to teaching a horse to stay behind the bit (as a dressagist would put it) so that you can’t ever use your hand/aid up front to influence the shoulders?

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7251282]

If you want to win at any of these shows, you can possibly do so using the ‘classical dressage’, or ‘vaquero’ traditions to develop your horse.
But you’re going to ‘do better’ consulting trainers that have big wins to their credentials. More ribbons. And while some cross training will help a bit, you will certainly get to a point where you are going to have to stick with a particular ‘show’ discipline at its highest ‘levels’, to the exclusion of other ‘methods’.[/QUOTE]

I don’t have (much) empirical experience to back this up, but I don’t think this is true.

Look, I made a nice show hunter who was ranch broke as a baby. I know he wasn’t made into a finished bridle horse and then asked to lope and jump on a loose rein, but I don’t see why a horse who was a) taught to take direction; and b) was conditioned to be strong and uphill can’t do a different job pretty darned well.

I guess if you want to talk about upper level tricks specific to a discipline— the reiner’s very fast spin or the dressagist’s line of one tempis-- then, yeah, you need to teach that horse that special thing to do with his body. I think that’s true partly because they take strength and partly because they are so fast-- if the horse doesn’t already have a clue what you are asking for, you can’t just “catch ride” the nicely broke horse into it because you pushed pre-existing buttons installed in him in a new series and he responded.

But below that, I do believe (or merely hope?) that I could use some of what the bridle horse guys do in order to make a show hunter or dressage horse or whatever. Or perhaps if I knew how the bridle horse people made their horse’s strong behind, I’d ditch the dressage and do that exclusively.

[froglander]

[QUOTE=aktill;7257465]
Ignore his head, and reward the horse moving with his hindquarters. Right now he thinks that he can answer most rein questions with his head, and that’s why he over bends. Right now his head is moving faster than his hindquarter. The minute he thinks about moving his hindquarter first, he won’t overbend.

Appropriately to this thread, this is why a lot of dressage horses have sad backups. I’ve helped a few of the riders at my barn with this…pretty much the only time they ask the western guy for help lol. They’re so worried about not overbending the head and neck that they don’t ever get the feet to free up and the horse just wallers back a couple of lama-like steps.

I can remember which Ray Hunt video answers this exact question…think maybe the tribute or fundraiser one? This is Ray’s answer though.[/QUOTE]

He’ll back however far, he just tucks his nose so much. Do I ask for less steps? More steps? Last night I kind of was trying to ‘hold’ his nose from tucking in, but would release as soon he took a couple steps back. He looked annoyed…

[froglander]

[QUOTE=mvp;7257599]
But below that, I do believe (or merely hope?) that I could use some of what the bridle horse guys do in order to make a show hunter or dressage horse or whatever. Or perhaps if I knew how the bridle horse people made their horse’s strong behind, I’d ditch the dressage and do that exclusively.[/QUOTE]

Hehe, maybe it’s all the backing

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Wirt;7252577]
The backing exercises of Bucks, for instance,are important to a stock horse, because we want him to get on his hocks fluidly so he can sweep over the other way, and stop a cow, hold a cow, or help you rope a cow. The content is that the horse can help you do these things. But the context is different than what a jumping horse needs to do, and understand, or some other discipline. [/QUOTE]

Thanks for explaining that. I’ll remember to put the Brannaman backing stuff into this context. Still, having made jumping horses, I can’t help thinking that I, too, want a horse who knows to rock weight back onto his hocks and is also strong enough to do that.

[aktill]

[QUOTE=froglander;7257627]
He’ll back however far, he just tucks his nose so much. Do I ask for less steps? More steps? Last night I kind of was trying to ‘hold’ his nose from tucking in, but would release as soon he took a couple steps back. He looked annoyed…[/QUOTE]

I’d wager that the fact that he looked annoyed is because he thinks he’s being really good and answering your questions. In his mind, the backing steps are secondary to making sure he yields to the bit…ie, the bit question is the most important.

As such, this isn’t about backing. It’s about the fact that his feet are more sticky then his head. When his feet free up, he won’t need to overbend because his head won’t get trapped between the rein and his hindquarter. It’s not about speed, it’s about the degree of yield.

If you want to look at it from a backup perspective, develop the ability to back him without a rein cue.

If you want to look at the bigger picture, I suspect you’re rewarding him for yielding his head too much. You’ve rewarded him too often for giving his head without getting to his feet OR his feet just aren’t freed up enough to match the yield in his head and neck. As such, you might not solve the overbending issue by working on backing.

More questions have to be answered by yielding to your body cues before this will go away.

[froglander]

Okay, thanks

Mostly been playing with it on the ground right now (getting over being sick) but he does tend to over-tuck his head towards his chest when backing under saddle too

And he does generally yield his head before his feet now that I think about it, both under saddle and from the ground.

I shall keep working at it!

[QUOTE=aktill;7257660]
I’d wager that the fact that he looked annoyed is because he thinks he’s being really good and answering your questions. In his mind, the backing steps are secondary to making sure he yields to the bit…ie, the bit question is the most important.

As such, this isn’t about backing. It’s about the fact that his feet are more sticky then his head. When his feet free up, he won’t need to overbend because his head won’t get trapped between the rein and his hindquarter. It’s not about speed, it’s about the degree of yield.

If you want to look at it from a backup perspective, develop the ability to back him without a rein cue.

If you want to look at the bigger picture, I suspect you’re rewarding him for yielding his head too much. You’ve rewarded him too often for giving his head without getting to his feet OR his feet just aren’t freed up enough to match the yield in his head and neck. As such, you might not solve the overbending issue by working on backing.

More questions have to be answered by yielding to your body cues before this will go away.[/QUOTE]

[aktill]

[QUOTE=froglander;7257694]
Okay, thanks
Mostly been playing with it on the ground right now (getting over being sick) but he does tend to over-tuck his head towards his chest when backing under saddle too

And he does generally yield his head before his feet now that I think about it, both under saddle and from the ground.

I shall keep working at it![/QUOTE]

All good! Most people (myself included) tend to “think with our hands” moreso than with any other of our aids, so our horses learn to answer most questions by doing something with their heads. It’s an ongoing challenge for me, I know.

[re-runs]

“I have to say that more traditional dressage work has done more to strengthen the little grade horses I’m riding than has the Brannaman stuff.
Also, I worry about the emphasis on getting that “soft feel”–especially in the bridle-- without emphasis on making the horse strong behind. Doesn’t this open the door to teaching a horse to stay behind the bit (as a dressagist would put it) so that you can’t ever use your hand/aid up front to influence the shoulders?”

Throughness means throughness no matter what discipline or tack you are using or even the task that will be asked . You have to complete the circle of energy whether that is direct (hand on the mouth(direct contact) and all the way to the feet) or indirect contact (float in the rein but connected through contact of seat/energy/the life in the body that Ray talked about) and mind (human) to mind of (horse) which is that illusive “feel” that is talked about).

Circle of aids/circle of energy should be the same. No kinks in the hose. A horse too far behind the bit/vertical puts in a “kink” getting in the way of the circle and all the way down to the feet.

Which brings me to froglanders problem of horse getting too far behind the vertical and horse not backing with enough energy. Are you sure that you are totally and instantly releasing to the horse lifting a foot to back? Many people hang on too long and if you are at all pulling, then the horse will match your pull with drag. He gets stuck. Remember to reward the slightest try by releasing as soon as that horse starts to bring his foot off the ground and you will know when this is going to happen because you will feel the horse starting to shift backwards. It may not be perfect the first couple of times but, if you get there early enough, then you then can build upon that because the horse will be hunting that release.

Dont fall into the trap of putting in a little pull and trying to release when the foot is all the way up or on its decent downward and back…that may feel right but it is way too late.

“Work on yourself.”… and I don`t mean that in a judgemental way. We all have to work on ourselves because “The horse is never wrong.” He is only responding to what he “thinks” you want because you are not being clear whether that is because of poor timing, or lack of energy or understanding or etc.

[aktill]

[QUOTE=mvp;7257574]
My intention in learning anything from the vaquero guys was to get different pedagogy (and perhaps some difference exercises for the horse) than classical dressage offers. What I take from classical dressage is the biomechanical stuff.[/QUOTE]

Do you want to limit the discussion to Brannaman’s teachings only? They’re only one specific branch of the bigger tree of vaquero horsemanship.

@mvp;7257574

I want a horse to be uphill, adjustable, symmetrical and light. I take this goal and feel from dressage, but I had assumed that vaquero-style bridle horses would give the same feel in the body.

From my experience, this is true.

@mvp;7257574

And another thing! I don’t see how a clinic totaling 6 hours of work for the horse in one day won’t end in the horse being unable to deliver hind end engagement at the end the way you’d want. But that’s another can of worms).

As in he’ll be tired? Depends on how in shape he is, and what you’ve been doing. Sheer endurance is something that’s more of a priority in a ranch horse than in a dressage horse, for sure. That said, if you can do that much work and have your horse still trying, it says a lot about your horsemanship. Whether he’s physically too tired to collect matters less than whether he’s trying to do so. Being able to taylor your requests to his state of energy is valuable too, after all.

@mvp;7257574

How do the people doing the Brannaman-style exercises strengthen the hind end enough to do some actual work-- like canter in self-carriage?

Well, the first thing I’d point out is that making the horse more responsible for his own balance is less common in the dressage world. Buck’s notion that you have no business adjusting headset in trot before getting in walk (or canter before getting in trot) isn’t something I’ve heard from any dressage instructor’s to this point.

Strengthening exercises before balance exercises is a French vs German discussion in the dressage world too.

Remember too that my understanding is that Buck doesn’t spend hours drilling exercises before heading out to do a day’s work. Remember the adage that “day 1 he costs money, day 2 he breaks even, and day 3 he’s on the payroll”. Those days can be ALL DAY days, not a half hour of playing in the sandbox. That does more to build strength and endurance than any set of flatwork arena work.

@mvp;7257574

I have to say that more traditional dressage work has done more to strengthen the little grade horses I’m riding than has the Brannaman stuff.

Such as…?

@mvp;7257574

Also, I worry about the emphasis on getting that “soft feel”–especially in the bridle-- without emphasis on making the horse strong behind. Doesn’t this open the door to teaching a horse to stay behind the bit (as a dressagist would put it) so that you can’t ever use your hand/aid up front to influence the shoulders?

Soft feel isn’t about headset, it’s about softness and a response to the bit. Ducking behind isn’t soft feel, when done by a master. A horse can’t get too soft to the bit.

It sounds like semantics, but see the above discussion about backing for an example.

I think people get into trouble because they try to make the reins do things that reins aren’t supposed to do (ie, not every question can be answered with a rein response).

On the flip side, I think a lot of people like the feeling of being able to have weight in their hands (ie more weight on the forehand) because it’s a safety thing for them. They feel the horse is more likely to run off if they don’t have a feel of his mouth. To me that’s like wanting to ride the handbrake to avoid going too quickly, but not to everyone. Reins shouldn’t be for stopping, but if people were honest, I think a lot of people see them that way.

[froglander]

Sorry to keep bringing this back to backing, but the more I read, the more I feel like if I could just grasp better what I am doing wrong, it would be a bit of a turning point for me.

Over the past few days, with trying to not overdo it and get over being sick, I’ve been watching the 7 Clinics dvds. So from the ground, I’ve been asking him to back how I understood it to be shown in those dvds. I basically grasp the knot of my rope halter, with my thumb pointed downward, and use a gentle kind of back and forth motion. He tucks his head towards his chest and takes steps backwards. Since this isn’t his first introduction to backing, I’ll often have him back a few steps before releasing. He’ll also back from a distance from a small shake/wiggle of my leadrope.

Last night, I was playing with backing and stuff, and at one point was having fun with kind of walking back and forwards a few steps with a loose lead and he would for the most part stay with me. It’s like, he’ll back better by using nothing?

Should I go back to asking for just a single step before releasing?

[re-runs]

When the horses head is too far behind the vertical it is biomenchanically impossible for the horse to be able to step through, letting go of his topline and use his abdominal muscles and raise the shoulder/ the forehand to properly balance the combined weight of horse and rider as is needed in self carriage/ true collection.

A person should educate themselves to what looks like true collection and compare that to false collection. Study a zillion horses and riders, such as riders and horses going round and round at a horse show and get an eye for that overall perfect balance. If you get an eye for that perfect balance at least you know what you want for your own horse. How can a person ask for something if you don`t know what it looks like.

[aktill]

[QUOTE=re-runs;7257845]
When the horses head is too far behind the vertical it is biomenchanically impossible for the horse to be able to step through, letting go of his topline and use his abdominal muscles and raise the shoulder/ the forehand to properly balance the combined weight of horse and rider as is needed in self carriage/ true collection.

A person should educate themselves to what looks like true collection and compare that to false collection. Study a zillion horses and riders, such as riders and horses going round and round at a horse show and get an eye for that overall perfect balance. If you get an eye for that perfect balance at least you know what you want for your own horse. How can a person ask for something if you don`t know what it looks like.[/QUOTE]

While I agree with this, it’s not particularly important for a rider. Why? Because it’s more important to FEEL what’s going on when the horse has a free poll.

The only reason we even have this discussion is because people are trying to judge the master’s horse. The master’s horse has a vertical head because when the muscles overlying the poll are in release and there is no tightness or brace there, gravity pulls the head to the vertical.

Why do we want a free poll? Because then a rein request is able to move from the tongue to at least the neck. If the poll locks, then the request truly stops at the poll.

We then free each and every joint down the spine until the rein TRULY reaches to the hindquarter without a brace in the way.

You can’t hunt a look, because looking down messes up your own balance. You can hunt a feel though.

[re-runs]

"Last night, I was playing with backing and stuff, and at one point was having fun with kind of walking back and forwards a few steps with a loose lead and he would for the most part stay with me. It’s like, he’ll back better by using nothing?

Should I go back to asking for just a single step before releasing?"

In my opinion, you should always ride one step at a time. Sounds like your horse is nice and soft with you on the ground. Sounds like grasping your knot and rocking back and forth with it is too much for him…you might be over doing it.

“As much as it a takes but as little as possible”. Afterall what we are trying to work towards is “lightness.”

We all have to experiment to get to that place where it feels good to both horse and rider and the horse is responding and the person gets to feel what it like to have the horse light. Luckily horses are mostly forgiving (although I have had horses that do not suffer foolishness but those are pretty rare) and tolerate us while we figure it out. If a persons “intent” is right, then the horses don`t see us as demanding monsters and get through our experimenting sessions without damage.

Experimenting is something that we all have to do, all of our lives, if we want to progress.

[aktill]

[QUOTE=froglander;7257839]
Sorry to keep bringing this back to backing, but the more I read, the more I feel like if I could just grasp better what I am doing wrong, it would be a bit of a turning point for me.

Over the past few days, with trying to not overdo it and get over being sick, I’ve been watching the 7 Clinics dvds. So from the ground, I’ve been asking him to back how I understood it to be shown in those dvds. I basically grasp the knot of my rope halter, with my thumb pointed downward, and use a gentle kind of back and forth motion. He tucks his head towards his chest and takes steps backwards. Since this isn’t his first introduction to backing, I’ll often have him back a few steps before releasing. He’ll also back from a distance from a small shake/wiggle of my leadrope.

Last night, I was playing with backing and stuff, and at one point was having fun with kind of walking back and forwards a few steps with a loose lead and he would for the most part stay with me. It’s like, he’ll back better by using nothing?

Should I go back to asking for just a single step before releasing?[/QUOTE]

If you release when the horse takes a good, soft step with the hindquarter, you’ll get further. Doesn’t matter how many steps it takes to do that, since that makes little difference.

The balance is that you have to reward the horse for trying. You may need to release on poor steps to get him thinking about backing, but if he’s consistently thinking about backing, then you can release for quality.

Without seeing your timing or what you’re releasing for, it’s hard to be more specific. I suspect you’re releasing for relatively poor quality steps, so he’s not understanding that you want him to release the brace in his loin.

Alternatively, he may not be longitudinally free enough (which you build through lateral flexion). Backing may have to be merely an obedience exercise right now until he’s free enough through his body to give you the quality you want.

[Fillabeana]

It’s like, he’ll back better by using nothing?

Well, yes.
This is a little tiny window into realizing that a horse would MUCH rather operate ‘on a feel’ than on a mechanical, pressure-and-release level.

So, really, you aren’t using ‘nothing’, you are using intention. The horse understands your request, he is mentally ‘with’ you (not trying to be somewhere else because he’s upset).

He’ll also back from a distance from a small shake/wiggle of my leadrope.

Work from here, too, getting to the point where your shake/wiggle doesn’t put any actual motion into the leadrope. If that doesn’t get a response, make the wiggle big enough that it moves the lead/halter and gets a step backwards. In other words, if the intention doesn’t work make sure you get big enough to get a response.

So many people miss this, they get the ‘pressure, then release’ right…and never get to where the ‘gesture’, ‘intention’, ‘ask’ with NO pressure works.

And the horse would much rather live in that polite world, where he can operate on a feel.

[aktill]

@re-runs;7257866

“As much as it a takes but as little as possible”. Afterall what we are trying to work towards is “lightness.”

This is where world’s divide. I think this is where some devotees of Buck’s school prioritize light at the expense of soft unless they have Buck’s timing. What he DOES in this area is different from what he vocalizes and/or emphasizes. I think it’s because a dull, unresponsive horse is completely useless, where at least a light horse you can do something with.

You can build a horse that’s light and instantly responsive, but hard and bracy as all get out. Once a horse is light and braced, it’s VERY difficult to get him soft.

If you get him soft first, you can then get him as light as you want. If you make him light before he’s soft, it’s HARD to get soft because it’s like trying to have a conversation with someone who keeps walking away from you. This is why there are a bunch of threads in the dressage forum about people complaining that they can’t get contact from a poor western retraining project because the horse keeps ducking behind the bit…light but not soft.

http://www.joshnichol.com/articles/Taking_Softness_Jun2010.pdf

Light is how quick he responds, but soft is how he feels when he’s responding.

A horse that’s light but not soft will feel empty. That’s still a brace, just in the mind.

[aktill]

@Fillabeana;7257877

Well, yes.
This is a little tiny window into realizing that a horse would MUCH rather operate ‘on a feel’ than on a mechanical, pressure-and-release level.

So, really, you aren’t using ‘nothing’, you are using intention. The horse understands your request, he is mentally ‘with’ you (not trying to be somewhere else because he’s upset).

YES! If anyone’s worked with Dr Deb, this is where she talks about the greater and lesser path. In the one you work the body to get the mind, in the latter you work the mind directly. Both have the same goal and net result, but only a true horseman can do the latter.

[Fillabeana]

Wha? Are you telling me you never explicitly taught your horse to scoot the stirrup over to where your left foot is?

I explicitly taught him to move his HQ over toward me (while I was on the fence, o na mountng block, stump, etc), and stand while I got in the saddle.

After that, I had a very deep and profound experience with him, in which he got mentally ‘turned loose’ with me.

The next time I went to get on him, I climbed on the stump (with him facing me straight on) and not only did he move his hindquarters without being asked, but he lined the stirrup and saddle horn up very carefully with my body on the stump, so that it was PERFECTLY positioned for me to get on.

Before, he’d get ‘close enough’, and only when I’d ask. But he would do it when I asked, no fussing or anything.

After, he’d put himself in the optimum spot for me to get on, every time he was mentally ‘with me’, as soon as I climbed on something -stump, 4-wheeler, pickup tailgate, trailer fender, tractor… without me asking. (A few times, he wasn’t very ‘with’ me, so I had to ask.)

[re-runs]

“The next time I went to get on him, I climbed on the stump (with him facing me straight on) and not only did he move his hindquarters without being asked, but he lined the stirrup and saddle horn up very carefully with my body on the stump, so that it was PERFECTLY positioned for me to get on.”

Such a good feeling to be invited !!!

I never take that for granted.

Their invitation, my gratitude…creates the atmosphere for both of us for the ride that comes after. There is no better way to start out a ride.
JMO