The Dressage - Brannaman nexus: Can we talk about particulars?

[Pocket_Pony]

[QUOTE=froglander;7239639]
Is that something you can describe or point me in a direction where I can try and learn more? I feel like I am almost there sometimes, but it remains elusive to me :([/QUOTE]

It’s one of those “you know it when you feel it” things. But I can tell you that it doesn’t come all at once, like one day you don’t have it and the next day you do. It comes in increments, split-second moments that you try to build on.

Having said that, here are a couple exercises I like on the ground.

(BB’s “7 Clinics” DVDs is where I first started playing with it)
Working on a circle with a rope halter, first start with just asking your horse to go around you in a circle. Personally, I walk with my horse because I don’t like him to go in small circles, although I think some people frown on that. Get a nice, steady circle going, where the feel on the rope is just there and only weighs as much as the rope does. It is harder than you think to get a horse to just walk in a circle and maintain a good bend and not look outside of the circle or lean in with his balance. You want to be with him in terms of body posturing - if you get too far ahead of him, you’ll block his forward movement; if you get too far behind him, you’ll be behind the motion and he’ll be sort of dragging you along (plus, it is a dangerous place to be - especially if he wants to look out and then swing his haunches in and take off). You want to be standing around the girth area, but in the middle of the circle, obviously. When I do it, I face sort of forward - maybe 45 degrees between looking at him head-on and looking in exactly the same direction he’s going. Just walk. See if you can maintain forward, tempo, bend.

Once you have a good circle going and you aren’t pulling on the rope, it is just “there,” then change your body position so you walk back toward his haunches (so you are turning from walking forward at his shoulder to changing the angle of your body to face his haunches). Ideally you want him to yield to your pressure and move his haunches away from you and bring the inside hind leg further under the midline of the body and step across his other hind leg. Now, this isn’t going to happen on the first try, so you’ll need to use the lead on your halter to help him move over, timing a bump or half-halt, so to speak, when that inside hind leg leaves the ground. As he’s picking up that leg, step into his haunches (mind your position so you don’t get close enough to be kicked), bump by giving a little tug on the lead in your direction (depending on how soft he is it could be a bump or just a squeeze of the lead) so he bends toward you and he should step under with that hind leg. If he “gets it” then let him stop and soak it in for a bit and then just start again with the circle and then to the yielding of the hind legs.

I hope I gave that a decent explanation.

Now at first it won’t be pretty and there may be some confusion, but if you stick with it, then just what you do with your hand in the circle (open it up as if to lead him in the direction you want to go - he should move just from a quiet positioning of your hand), or how you change your body position, will mean something to him and he’ll move accordingly. That’s feel.

There are other exercises I do like moving from the circle to the yielding and back to the circle again, then do that mixed in with straight lines so that I do that one lap around the arena (maybe a circle at each dressage letter, for example) in each direction. You can do so much with ground work to develop feel. Then when you transfer it to mounted work you’ll understand it more because both you and your horse have developed a baseline of what you want and how it feels to you.

[Pocket_Pony]

Oh, another thing. In the link to my Yoga FB page below, I addressed this topic a couple weeks ago that you’re welcome to read. I think that feel comes from two things - learning about timing and location. The timing of the aid and the location of the aid. The description of exercises I gave above talks about timing (when to ask the leg to move over) and location (where to give the aid - bump with the rope, or step in with your body). Feel comes as a result of those two things coming together and both horse and human understanding them.

I defined feel as this: Feel is the imperceptible connection between rider and horse that communicates intention of movement.

But that’s just my definition.

[froglander]

That is helpful, thank you Pocket Pony It /is/ fun to play with groundwork, I’ll give that exercise a shot. I need to rewatch the 7 Clinics dvds to refresh everything in my head!

[Fillabeana]

It is harder than you think to get a horse to just walk in a circle and maintain a good bend and not look outside of the circle or lean in with his balance…I hope I gave that a decent explanation.
…
Now at first it won’t be pretty and there may be some confusion,

Yeah, took me about three years. And yes, I did start off in a Buck clinic, and with some VERY good help after the clinic.

I defined feel as this: Feel is the imperceptible connection between rider and horse that communicates intention of movement.

Pocket, I love your definition. except maybe I’d say that feel is not so much ‘imperceptible’…that’s an oxymoron!!! :winkgrin: Maybe ‘transcendent’ or in some way difficult to define by rote, basic terms.
Someone describes ‘feel’ as having a thousand different definitions, each of them correct.

And Monarch, the backing in circles exercise came up for me, too. However, Buck has warned that it will screw up/ruin a horse if you do it much before the horse is REALLY good at ‘leading by’. So best to make sure you can ‘send’ your horse (on the halter) over a tarp, into the trailer, front or back end EXACTLY where you want it to go, before much backing in circles.

[Monarch]

Fillabeana thanks for the caution and I agree. I think he warns against backing circles or otherwise in his tapes before other things are pretty much confirmed.
Hmm needed to go fire up VCR
Lucky you to have clinic with him. He was in our area earlier this year but I was not aware and missed out. Would have loved to have attended.
M

[froglander]

[QUOTE=DLee;7238611]
I finally, FINALLY, got the leg differences in the legs during turns, still have to think way too hard about it, but am doing better. [/QUOTE]

Is there anything you could share to expand upon that? That is something I find I have to think about a lot, and I worry that my thinking is not going in the right direction

[Pocket_Pony]

@Fillabeana;7239902

Pocket, I love your definition. except maybe I’d say that feel is not so much ‘imperceptible’…that’s an oxymoron!!! :winkgrin: Maybe ‘transcendent’ or in some way difficult to define by rote, basic terms.
Someone describes ‘feel’ as having a thousand different definitions, each of them correct.

Good point. I was thinking of “invisible aids” that others might not see, yet which affect the horse’s movement. But you are right, there is a transcendent aspect to it when you are the one riding!

I also find the turning thing hard but useful, especially in controlling the shoulders.

[DLee]

[QUOTE=froglander;7240060]
Is there anything you could share to expand upon that? That is something I find I have to think about a lot, and I worry that my thinking is not going in the right direction :([/QUOTE]

Sure! My lightbulb moment actually came while riding with Mindy Bower this summer. I had ridden once with Buck in 2011 and watched the Clinics dvd’s many times, so I knew what he wanted, but didn’t understand why and it still hadn’t made sense to me so consequently I had pretty much given up on this one thing. :no:

Anyway, I’m riding my mare for Mindy, we are halted, I have my leadrope around her neck (I’m mounted) just to see how well she will stop and turn for me with no reins. Mindy said “turn left”. My first thought is to take my rope, kind of pull back and to the left (kind of neck reining) and use my right leg to ‘hold’ her hindquarters in one spot while we basically pivot left.

Mindy says “use your left leg”. Huh? She said “Just use it”. So of course we ended up doing a turn on the forehand and are facing left. Absolutely backasswards of what I wanted to do, but there we are, easily facing left. And the lightbulb went off in my head. Finally! I said “I need a moment!” lol, it was awesome to finally start to ‘get’ it.

It’s still very difficult for me to remember this during short serpentines, or making a turn to a jump, etc, I KNOW I do not get it right all the time (poor Annie!), but it’s coming. Honestly right now I only use one leg to turn because I can NOT get the positions correct without practically stopping what I am doing to get it. And I’m not stupid! It’s just that I’ve been doing it so very long, that to do something absolutely backwards of how you have been for decades… well, it’s a slow process I guess.

I hope that helps a bit, it’s my own lightbulb moment, so it may not, but wow it was great to understand what I had not been able to comprehend before. I brought it up to Buck this year when I rode for him as well, simply because I still struggle with it. He knew what I was going to say, of course, before I even finished, he hears this so often. And while I don’t think I still totally get the why of it all, it’s starting to feel easier.

Good luck to you!

[froglander]

Thank you DLee, that does help And I think I have a good idea what you mean about using one leg to ask for the turn for now–so hard to untrain yourself from the idea that the horse turns around your inside leg and outside leg keeps their haunches from falling out

When I am trying to think about “turn right means right leg back and left leg forward” I think one of the things I get a bit hung up on is how /far/ forward or back my leg should be going?

[Fillabeana]

When I am trying to think about “turn right means right leg back and left leg forward” I think one of the things I get a bit hung up on is how /far/ forward or back my leg should be going?

To start, I’d just work on my inside leg getting in the effective place to ask the haunches to untrack outward. That might be just behind the girth for you/your horse, or maybe a bit farther back. Once that is established and comfortable, you can go on to the outside leg.

This was a really hard one for me. And I think it is especially hard with a woman’s pelvis (as opposed to a man’s) because I think it makes my seat/pelvis feel unstable when I reach my outside foot forward to bump my horse’s elbow. Once you get it working well, it doesn’t feel unstable. You can watch Reata ride, her seat and legs are lovely. It’s there, you just have to get past the icky weird feelings sometimes before you can get the right pelvis/leg positions working with the horse, so they time right with the aids.

That elbow bump is sort of ‘part two’ of a hindquarters, frontquarters exercise. First, the ‘inside’ leg asks the HQ to move 180 degrees, then you ask the horse to weight the HQ and move the front end across (with the outside leg/foot bumping up on the shoulder/elbow) 180 degrees.

Bumping the elbow with your stirrup will probably feel REALLY weird at first. And it CAN’T be done properly if you are pushing weight down through your heel, like you would with a proper jumping leg. Your foot pretty much can’t ‘slap’ the horse’s elbow if you’re pushing down into your heel, you have to unlearn that, too, before it will work well.

So yeah, watch the videos to see the ‘outside leg forward’ where it is being used, and the horse is responding to it. Know that’s there, and get the inside leg back and working first.

[froglander]

Okay, I think that makes sense if you are turning across the arena or serpentining back and forth.

I seem to have a mental block though on what would be “correct” if you are trying to ride in a circle?

aktill described it earlier in this thread as

You set him up so that the orientation of your body is allowing the turn. If he’s trying to move straight through a “turn” you’ve arranged in your body, he’ll encounter resistance.

but can someone describe “so that the orientation of your body is allowing the turn”?

[Pocket_Pony]

I was at a Gwynn Turnbull Weaver & Dave Weaver clinic over the weekend and when she talked about leg positions, the one to move the shoulder was right at the girth. Neutral position was a tad behind the girth. To move the haunches was a bit farther back. But really, we’re talking a matter of a couple inches - clearly their ability to refine the aids to that small of an area is beyond where I’m at right now. I, too, struggle with getting my leg up by the elbow - especially my left leg.

When I start my ride, I always start with the same warmup exercise after doing ground work. I do small little teardrops and changes of direction starting with turning the shoulders first. Then I move to small circles where I move the haunches over. So I’m separating my legs and working on focusing on one end or the other, repetitively so that I get in the groove. Then after I’ve done each end, I put it together in the haunches/shoulders circles that show me what I may have missed in each of the separate exercises before. Invariably, it is the left shoulder! :eek:

[Pocket_Pony]

[QUOTE=froglander;7240154]

but can someone describe “so that the orientation of your body is allowing the turn”?[/QUOTE]

Adam could respond to what he meant by that statement, but here’s what I take away from it.

Have you ever ridden a horse who motorcycles through the turns? Meaning, he is leaning on that inside shoulder and feels as if he’s counter-bending a bit? If you look at the rider in that situation (or remember what it feels like yourself), most likely their shoulders are oriented in the same fashion - so the inside shoulder is leaning forward and the outside shoulder is back. I actually had a lot of trouble with Mac doing this to the right when I first started riding him and what helped me was to really think about picking up my own shoulder and repositioning it and rotating it back so that I could be properly positioned on the circle.

If you think of just walking on a circle (or get down on your hands and knees and do it in your living room!), there’s going to be a way you carry your body that “fits” with the direction of the circle. You’re not going to be walking around with your head looking to the outside while you weigh one leg more than the other or angle your hips to the outside of the circle. That’s what it means to me to be positioned correctly. Your body says “this is the direction of the circle and we’re going to go there together” - you’re in harmony.

[froglander]

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7240159]
When I start my ride, I always start with the same warmup exercise after doing ground work. I do small little teardrops and changes of direction starting with turning the shoulders first. Then I move to small circles where I move the haunches over. So I’m separating my legs and working on focusing on one end or the other, repetitively so that I get in the groove. Then after I’ve done each end, I put it together in the haunches/shoulders circles that show me what I may have missed in each of the separate exercises before. Invariably, it is the left shoulder! :eek:[/QUOTE]

Okay, I think I have the teardrop idea clear in my head. Does this sound about right? Walking down the rail to the right, left leg a bit forward to ask for the shoulders to move over and around in a teardrop shape and back to the rail, all the while your horse is still walking forward?

For the small circles where you move the haunches over, is that like doing a turn on the forehand but the forehand keeps walking?

What is a haunches/shoulders circle?

[Pocket_Pony]

[QUOTE=froglander;7240182]
Okay, I think I have the teardrop idea clear in my head. Does this sound about right? Walking down the rail to the right, left leg a bit forward to ask for the shoulders to move over and around in a teardrop shape and back to the rail, all the while your horse is still walking forward?

Yes, correct. You need to time your aid so that you are asking as the inside leg is leaving the ground. I combine this with a rein aid (so the rein asks at the same time), but as I’ve practiced, my rein aid has become smaller and smaller. When I return to the rail, I continue walking a few steps, then do it in the other direction.

For the small circles where you move the haunches over, is that like doing a turn on the forehand but the forehand keeps walking?

It is an under-saddle version of the groundwork exercise I mentioned earlier. It is “disengaging the haunches” ala a one-rein stop, so that the horse is bent to the inside and the inside hind steps deeper under the midline of the horse.

What is a haunches/shoulders circle?[/QUOTE]

It is putting those two exercises together and something Buck goes into a lot in the “7 Clinics” DVDs. He starts with bending to the inside (inside leg on and in the position to move the haunches over - don’t do anything with the outside leg; inside rein is bringing the head around) and moving the haunches over (for a 180-degree turn). Then the next 180-degree turn (so the second half of the circle), you change your legs - take pressure off with the inside leg and now use the outside leg to move the shoulders over. The inside rein moves to an opening position to show the horse the direction and to sort of “lift” and move the inside front leg over in the direction of travel.

Buck has said that this exercise sets the horse up for the outside leg to be planted (vs. the inside leg, which is I’m told how reiners spin), which is what you want if you’re doing canter pirouettes in dressage, for example. It also sets you up to strike off onto the correct canter lead, as that outside hind leg is already weighted and in position (the outside hind leg is the first step of a canter stride).

I hope I didn’t botch this explanation and that it makes sense!

[froglander]

@Pocket Pony;7240199

For the small circles where you move the haunches over, is that like doing a turn on the forehand but the forehand keeps walking?

It is an under-saddle version of the groundwork exercise I mentioned earlier. It is “disengaging the haunches” ala a one-rein stop, so that the horse is bent to the inside and the inside hind steps deeper under the midline of the horse.

Just to make sure I understand–the horse keeps walking forward while doing this or no?

eta: I was just reading your write-up of the groundwork version, and I was trying to visualize it, is it almost (position-wise) like the horse is doing a shoulder in?

[Bluey]

I will only say this, you don’t need a get down rope if you use split reins on the hackamore.
Why make the simple more complicated?

As for dressage principles applied to western riding, some work, some don’t, not so you can still call them dressage principles as taught and used for what, 400+ years?

The technical part of some kinds of western riding is not very old and with distinct regional differences.
I think those that want to ride according to the vaquero tradition should understand some of that is from just different to at times antagonistic with other kinds of western riding and definitely with how plenty is done in dressage.

Those important differences are there for a reason and should be respected, just as doma vaquera/high school iberian training is not dressage, or any other we care to classify as a singular discipline with a tradition and ways of doing what it does.

[Pocket_Pony]

[QUOTE=froglander;7240245]
Just to make sure I understand–the horse keeps walking forward while doing this or no?

eta: I was just reading your write-up of the groundwork version, and I was trying to visualize it, is it almost (position-wise) like the horse is doing a shoulder in?[/QUOTE]

Yes, the horse keeps moving forward - forward motion is not stopped. I don’t think of it as shoulder in, I think of it as a small circle with the hind end stepping more deeply under the belly and moving out.

Here’s a video in my blog that demonstrates the ground work version of it. http://mymustangadventures.blogspot.com/2013/03/new-videos.html

That was before I went to the BB clinic and had only just started watching the “7 Clinics” DVDs. I also have a different lead on my halter now - one that is tied on vs. a bull snap, which I hate.

I don’t hold myself up as a pillar of ground work, but this might explain it more than my writing does. These days there’s a lot less head-tossing!

[froglander]

Thank you for the video link! We played with it on the ground a bit and while it took a small circle, there were a few times I think we were getting it So thank you for the detailed descriptions!

Also practiced your tear-drop and the small haunches circles and while they need work, I think I get the idea now that I was able to put the words into action.

I think /he/ is going to pick up turning quicker than I am!

[alibi_18]

[QUOTE=mvp;7236827]
Are any of you willing to answer my questions?[/QUOTE]

From the 3 pages long thread, apparently not!

What are your questions?