[QUOTE=alibi_18;7240910]
From the 3 pages long thread, apparently not! 
What are your questions?[/QUOTE]
Well, I did, although it fell in deaf ears, as I expected.
[QUOTE=Bluey;7240960]
Well, I did, although it fell in deaf ears, as I expected.;)[/QUOTE]
Not sure what you mean by this? Also, it didn’t seem as though the OP had posted specific questions yet, to me the thread had been a useful discussion of how the concepts can work together towards good horsemanship.
[QUOTE=Bluey;7240960]
Well, I did, although it fell in deaf ears, as I expected.;)[/QUOTE]
I don’t think it’s so much that it fell on deaf ears, as it is that you did no more than mvp said the dressage and western people do–you said a resounding yes and no, but no specifics. But, then again, mvp never cited the specific movements in question, so your answer was entirely appropriate. (I thought aktill did a pretty good history lesson at one point that spoke to the original question. You had to dig for it a bit, though).
[QUOTE=froglander;7240982]
Not sure what you mean by this? Also, it didn’t seem as though the OP had posted specific questions yet, to me the thread had been a useful discussion of how the concepts can work together towards good horsemanship.[/QUOTE]
It is interesting to see how cross training helps, but there are limits to that, limits demanded by what you are doing.
I thought the question was, where are those limits and where are some trying to blur them and is it really possible to do so without losing what either discipline is all about?
Take one example, the idea of a horse in the bridle will eventually be in a spade bit.
Think about that, what those bits do, they require a horse to hold it’s head and neck a certain way for the bit to hang right, or it pokes them into the palate if they don’t.
That is the balance of that bit and what the old timers were after, to get a horse to eventually work like that, holding themselves stiffly within the confines of those bits.
That is one reason Don Dodge tended to question some of that kind of training, you ended up with a stiff horse, compared with others, less demanding ways of training western horses.
That was one reason he thought the “texan” cutters used to come into the West competitions and win.
Their horses, while not technically as well trained by far, were trained to true self carriage and being able to use themselves so much better, without the constrains put on them by the vaquero tradition of training, so obvious in the old drawings.
There are trade-offs to all we do.
Today the vaquero tradition of training has loosened way more than the old type trainers thought to bring forth in their horses, thanks to being exposed to other riding.
But, to want to train and mix the way we train dressage horses, that is a valid way to train for that purpose and then ask a horse to move as a western horse, well, it really requires different horses to start with, just by conformation and the way of going, to make that, for most horses, maybe not the best.
I am short and squatty, compared with some other long leggity human.
It would seem that, while I can cross train, to want to become a long distance runner, or one of those a sprinter, well, we can do it, but not well.
Some may be middle of the road and do decent at both, but the better ones for the task at hand will always be those talented for it.
The same with horses.
Taking a Hollywood Dun It horse and trying to make it a Totilas or Secretariat, or the other way around, well, you can find common ground at some level, but for what each one is bred to and does best, there really are differences.
I understood the OP’s questions to be, “is there a line there we are trying to cross, should we be doing that and how far should we cross it?”
My answer, only to a certain point, or we may lose what we really are after with each already well established way of training and riding and purposes for those and end with no fish or fowl, but a confused horse and rider.
[QUOTE=Bluey;7241038]
Take one example, the idea of a horse in the bridle will eventually be in a spade bit.
Think about that, what those bits do, they require a horse to hold it’s head and neck a certain way for the bit to hang right, or it pokes them into the palate if they don’t.
That is the balance of that bit and what the old timers were after, to get a horse to eventually work like that, holding themselves stiffly within the confines of those bits.[/QUOTE]
Again with this…YOUR opinion only. That’s just not true. If a horse is holding a bit, how can it poke them anywhere? Why on earth would someone who has to have a horse hold up for a whole day want them to be stiff and wear out quickly? That doesn’t even make sense, and yet this is at least the third time I’ve seen you write that.
We get it, you’re not a spade bit fan, but come on!
Bluey is absolutely right. If you are training for the high end of a particular discipline, you’d do well to stick to the tried-and-true methods of that discipline.
But most of us are not trying to train a Totilas or a Hollywood Dun It or a Secretariat, nor are we necessarily working with purpose-bred horses. We’re just trying to cobble together the best of several horsemanships (not the same as “disciplines”), to do the best for our multi-purpose horses. In that context, borrowing isn’t a bad thing, if you have enough perspective to pick and choose what to borrow and what to leave behind. That’s where the problem comes in–many of those trying to do the picking and choosing don’t have the perspective to do it as well as it might be done.
However, if there’s one thing that age has taught me, it’s that learning doesn’t happen overnight. It’s a process, sometimes a long one. From that perspective, as long as we keep asking good questions, we’re doing the best we can. So, the discussion is very valuable, no matter where it wanders, as long as the questions are sincere.
[QUOTE=aktill;7241044]
Again with this…YOUR opinion only. That’s just not true. If a horse is holding a bit, how can it poke them anywhere? Why on earth would someone who has to have a horse hold up for a whole day want them to be stiff and wear out quickly? That doesn’t even make sense, and yet this is at least the third time I’ve seen you write that.
We get it, you’re not a spade bit fan, but come on![/QUOTE]
Here, rest my case about the older type vaquero tradition.
We really should not try to re-write history, but learn from it by understanding it in context, not make it what we want it to be in today’s context:
I don’t think it is so much as “I’m going to train my dressage horse in the vaquero fashion”, as looking to other methodologies and disciplines and learning from the good horsemanship involved. Finding ways to create a lighter, less resistant horse. Finding ways to keep the horse interested and curious and a willing partner. I like how in the Buck documentary Betty Staley talks about working cattle with her dressage horse. It’s about looking at things and figuring out for yourself what makes sense.
I especially liked this comment made earlier in the thread:
[QUOTE=Murphy’s Mom;7239314]
This is covered in the book that Betty Staley and Ellen Eckstein wrote - Bringing It Together: An approach to a lighter and happier dressage horse (available on Betty’s website). They cover three basic exercises. The first one connects your rein to the hind leg and teaches the horse to go forward starting with the hind end. The second exercise goes backwards and the third works on individual steps. I think this book, Buck’s 7 Clinics DVDs, and some of the French dressage stuff by Philippe Karl go well together.[/QUOTE]
For me, this is the kind of thing I am looking for.
Also, in regard to the spade bit, after some of the posts by aktill about Martin Black I went and watched some youtube videos and I liked how a spade bit was described as a “signal bit”. It’s not meant to be used as a leverage bit which infers forces applied, but as a signal. Other things I’ve read have also described how balanced a well made spade bit is.
And as I was hitting post I saw this and I think this kinda sums up what I was trying to say 
[QUOTE=Bluey;7241054]
Here, rest my case about the older type vaquero tradition.
We really should not try to re-write history, but learn from it by understanding it in context, not make it what we want it to be in today’s context:[/QUOTE]
From one source comes all history, absolutely.
http://media.independent.com/img/photos/2007/11/06/Five_Vaqueros.jpg
Especially in light of the fact that it was written long after the period where the vaqueros were really in their hayday. PLUS it was written by someone who believed that the legs should play little part in a bridle horse’s education, which isn’t shared by even most folks who have had the traditions passed down to them.
[QUOTE=aktill;7241104]
From one source comes all history, absolutely.
http://media.independent.com/img/photos/2007/11/06/Five_Vaqueros.jpg
Especially in light of the fact that it was written long after the period where the vaqueros were really in their hayday. PLUS it was written by someone who believed that the legs should play little part in a bridle horse’s education, which isn’t shared by even most folks who have had the traditions passed down to them.[/QUOTE]
Ok, pick your drawing of that time and you will see, no matter where it comes from, vaquero tradition of that time obviously was not aware of the concepts we take for granted today and some want to think they had then.
Just not so, just as so much we know today we didn’t decades ago, it is the way knowledge and information works.
No need to be defensive, it is the way it was and is.
We need to acknowledge and move on, but not try to do what “they” did, the way they did it, because our understanding of those concepts are considerably greater today, as it should be.
[QUOTE=froglander;7241070]
Also, in regard to the spade bit, after some of the posts by aktill about Martin Black I went and watched some youtube videos and I liked how a spade bit was described as a “signal bit”. It’s not meant to be used as a leverage bit which infers forces applied, but as a signal. Other things I’ve read have also described how balanced a well made spade bit is.[/QUOTE]
exactly. If they were such horrible things that jabbed horses in the palate and forced them to hold their heads in place, why on earth would most photos show these sorts of poses:
http://www.easphotography.com/Tindur/TindurTwoReinPhoto.jpg
I’m not touching the bridle reins here obviously, so it’s only the bit in play.
[QUOTE=aktill;7241124]
exactly. If they were such horrible things that jabbed horses in the palate and forced them to hold their heads in place, why on earth would most photos show these sorts of poses:
http://www.easphotography.com/Tindur/TindurTwoReinPhoto.jpg
I’m not touching the bridle reins here obviously, so it’s only the bit in play.[/QUOTE]
Kinda off topic, but what an adorable little horse/pony!
Thank you all for giving this thread legs, even while I was AWOL. My questions were clear while I was in Brannaman Guy’s clinic, but they faded. I’ll try to get them back in an articulate form.
[QUOTE=aktill;7236880]
Bring it on. I respect Buck immensely, and understand what he’s doing for the most part, but declined to even audit this time around when he comes to town.
I get more from the dressage lessons I take weekly then I did from the clinic I took last time he came around. My dressage instructor can’t help with the nuances of building a spade bit horse, so I’ll go to some western folks for that, but it’ll be Josh Nichol and Bruce Sandifer (and Martin Black for the cattle work side).[/QUOTE]
The biggest/constant one is still what I have asked before: Classical dressagists teach the horse to raise its shoulders using a relationship with the bit that maintains contact. Western guys, too, care about raised shoulders. But every move they do ends with a loop in the reins.
So:
-
Do you need to commit to one system or the other? (Right now, I’m mixing them in a way I’ll explain if you like, but I’m not sure what’s making any of it work).
-
Does using the Brannaman-style system depend heavily on the rider being able to feel a horse who is uphill or who has really reached under with his hind end?
One of the tough things about dressage theory is that it presumes a good rider. IMO, that’s why there are so many bad dressage horses out there. The Brannaman clinics make it seem that you don’t need quite so much feel-- the time to let go and praise the horse is much more obvious.
I know the local Bannaman acolyte has something I want. He explained what the spade bit was for, demonstrating with his horse in a snaffle. He said it was only for asking the horse to lift up his front end. All else-- including lateral bending-- came from your body.
The guy shows us by lifting up his hand to the snaffle with a drape in the reins and I’ll-be-damned, the horse raised his rib cage up between his scapulae. So clearly that guy trains in a way that’s about getting legitimate “uphill” into a horse.
[QUOTE=froglander;7241070]
I don’t think it is so much as “I’m going to train my dressage horse in the vaquero fashion”, as looking to other methodologies and disciplines and learning from the good horsemanship involved. Finding ways to create a lighter, less resistant horse. Finding ways to keep the horse interested and curious and a willing partner. I like how in the Buck documentary Betty Staley talks about working cattle with her dressage horse. It’s about looking at things and figuring out for yourself what makes sense.
I especially liked this comment made earlier in the thread:
For me, this is the kind of thing I am looking for.
Also, in regard to the spade bit, after some of the posts by aktill about Martin Black I went and watched some youtube videos and I liked how a spade bit was described as a “signal bit”. It’s not meant to be used as a leverage bit which infers forces applied, but as a signal. Other things I’ve read have also described how balanced a well made spade bit is.
And as I was hitting post I saw this and I think this kinda sums up what I was trying to say :)[/QUOTE]
Well, yes, curb bits are both, leverage, as how they work and signal bits, as one way you can use them for that, along with other you may put at the ends of the reins.
In general, snaffles are defined as a bit with direct action, curb bits as your generic leverage bit with a straight bar, with or without any kind of port, not articulated like a snaffle, working by leverage achieved with shank and purchase and a curb chain.
In western riding, because of how curb bits work thru leverage, they generally are not considered good to use for training with direct reins, but one handed.
Using them two handed would make the bit move in the horse’s mouth in ways that may confuse a horse, thus the “signal” bit name, when you don’t direct rein with them, but just signal, something you by the way can also do with any other, snaffles or bosals.
No one I think is trying to say a spade bit is not a leverage bit and works thru leverage, just because they are also used to signal?
The spanish word for generic bit is “bocado”.
That translates as “bite” or “mouthful”.
Some also use “freno”, that translates as “brake”, for all bits, but it is also used for “curb”, because yes, it is intended, by it’s use, as a more serious leverage, braking tool than a snaffle.
Spade bits are considered one of the more severe of such leverage bits.
We know the hands behind the reins is what makes any we use on a horse more or less severe.
Many consider spade bits are in their own category as how special their use is, as even accidental misuse or getting hung in something can cause that more damage than other types of bits.
Even old timers used to recognize that not many horses or riders would ever make good spade bit candidates.
Quoting Aktill:
—“We get it, you’re not a spade bit fan, but come on!”—
Just because of knowing what I know about spade bits and mentioning it here and there, that doesn’t make me, as you said, “not a spade bit fan”.
That doesn’t has anything to do with being a fan.
[QUOTE=froglander;7238735]
I agree with whoever in this thread that said their english reins have no life in them. I rode a couple times last week with my western headstall with a snaffle bit with slobber snaps and rope reins and then rode in my dressage bridle (sans noseband) last night and the western setup I just felt like I had a better feel with the reins. [/QUOTE]
So this “life” really means the reins have weight to them, preferably with more weight near the bit? Or the slobber straps add, too, a little bit of stickiness at the loose ring?
For these guys trying to be plain-spoken, they aren’t very plain-spoken.
[QUOTE=froglander;7238861]
Sorry, should I stop asking questions?[/QUOTE]
Being late to the party, perhaps you guys have resolved this by now.
My .02.
-
No, you shouldn’t stop asking questions. And among the people talking here, offense is not intended. If you feel that and want to pick up your toys and go home that’s on you.
-
JMHO: High Theory Brannaman might indeed have no issues to reconcile with dressage. But boy-howdie there is a ton of talk, rider position and feel that sounds different from Dressage Lore.
Part of the reason I started this thread is because I felt a little bit the way you did, froglander. I’d ask one of those Clinic Guys a technical question that comes from dressage land-- they say “Aww shucks, ma’am, I don’t know about that. I just ride the way I believe in.”
That’s not helpful.
[QUOTE=mvp;7241276]
So this “life” really means the reins have weight to them, preferably with more weight near the bit? Or the slobber straps add, too, a little bit of stickiness at the loose ring?
For these guys trying to be plain-spoken, they aren’t very plain-spoken.[/QUOTE]
It’s not just the weight (I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately, lol), the rope just has a better “feel” to it.
The best way I’ve come up to describe it is like the difference between a standard, multi-colored nylon leadrope, and the yacht braid type most ground-work clinicians recommend.
eta: I had started a thread on another forum asking about “heavy english reins” and have a dressage rider thoroughly confused. But from the playing around I’ve done over the last week with my grippy web english reins vs my yacht braid with slobber straps western reins, I feel like I have to have “more” contact with the english reins to have that open line of communication with my horse. I have enough contact on the western reins that the slobber straps around swinging all over the place, but it’s not so much that I am “pulling” on the bit? I don’t know if that makes any more sense 
[QUOTE=mvp;7241292]
Being late to the party, perhaps you guys have resolved this by now.
My .02.
-
No, you shouldn’t stop asking questions. And among the people talking here, offense is not intended. If you feel that and want to pick up your toys and go home that’s on you.
-
JMHO: High Theory Brannaman might indeed have no issues to reconcile with dressage. But boy-howdie there is a ton of talk, rider position and feel that sounds different from Dressage Lore.
Part of the reason I started this thread is because I felt a little bit the way you did, froglander. I’d ask one of those Clinic Guys a technical question that comes from dressage land-- they say “Aww shucks, ma’am, I don’t know about that. I just ride the way I believe in.”
That’s not helpful.[/QUOTE]
I like what I see when I watch things like the Buck documentary, and look up stuff like that on YouTube and whatnot. I loved what Betty Staley had to add to it.
But like you say, it’s the details where things get hazy! For awhile, after having seen the Buck movie a few times and getting the 7 Clinics dvds for Christmas last year, I was working on turning in the way he talked about, using the inside leg to ask the haunches to step over/under and the outside leg to ask the shoulders to move over. But then I could get all kinds of confused when I’d be working on circles and the amount of “contact” I /should/ be using, and I started taking dressage lessons, and I kind of let things slide.
This thread has giving me the motivation to question things, and seek to learn answers to I think some of the very questions you are looking for as well
I don’t have a dedicated “dressage show horse”, I have a horse, he’s my pal, and I want to learn and have fun and develop a light horse in the process. (I mean, to put it into words, my day-dream goal is to someday make it as far as a USDF bronze with him, but he’s only 7 and I figure we have plenty of time )
[QUOTE=mvp;7241276]
So this “life” really means the reins have weight to them, preferably with more weight near the bit? Or the slobber straps add, too, a little bit of stickiness at the loose ring?
For these guys trying to be plain-spoken, they aren’t very plain-spoken.[/QUOTE]
Honestly, I don’t know what it is - your speculation above is as good as anything I could come up with. The reins have weight. I pick up the rein and while it (the mecate) weighs more, it feels lighter somehow. I guess the weight of the rein itself transmits a message when one first takes a hold of it. If I extrapolated to some other sort of material, a thread of dental floss probably has less feel in it (because it is so lightweight) than an electrical cord. Obviously, that is a bigger weight difference, but if you had one strand of each under your foot, you’d feel the cord before you would the floss.
If we’re talking generalities and what can BB’s style of teaching do for your dressage training, I can answer that one.
With my most recent dressage instructor, 99% of my time was spent on a 20-m circle. It felt like endless drilling. It was physically demanding for me and I worked harder than I should have to get my horse “round” and “on the bit” and “through” on the 20-m circle. The only ground work we did was lunging in side reins . . . again on a 20-m circle.
Now I am willing to accept that perhaps I just wasn’t “getting it” and that there was something missing in my own riding that was making it so difficult for me and my horse.
But. I found that on my own, when I mixed it up a bit, I’d have better rides where the horse felt lighter to me. I’d use the whole arena, I’d do cavaletti exercises and mix it up a lot, and through those exercises, my horse became more supple faster than spending an hour on a circle.
When I got royally bucked off in spring of 2012, I quit my dressage lessons altogether. I needed to find a different way to get to my horse’s brain and body. I found a NH person that I worked with a little bit over the summer, but I found the techniques to be too aggressive for my taste. I kept riding on my own.
Early this year I finally treated myself to the “7 Clinics” DVDs, after hearing about them for so long. I was intrigued right away and started the ground work exercises and got myself a flag (gasp!). It was ugly at first - Mac was very snorty at the flag, would toss his head around a lot, would stomp in protest, and we had some explosive moments on the ground. But I tried to emulate Buck’s calm and patience that I saw in the videos and it really helped me to not get my hackles up when things weren’t going right. With patience we just moved along. On a whim I signed up for his clinic in March (April?) and got in (really, I thought I wouldn’t because I was so late in sending in my entry). I went and absorbed everything I could.
What has the training done for me and my horse? Well, I’d say our training progressed more quickly since starting with this stuff. His suppleness has improved, his try has improved, his gaits have improved, his responsiveness has improved, and our fun has improved!
Let’s face it, the majority of us are not going to make bridle horses or GP dressage horses. There are a lot of different tools out there for us to put in our tool boxes to help us improve our horses and our own riding. Frankly, these tools (and I use simple ground work exercises and under-saddle exercises mostly at the walk) have expanded my education and improved me and my horse immensely.
My feel has improved so that any sort of lateral work is easier for us (not necessarily easy, but easiER) because I have a better idea of when to time my aids. I’ve worked on releasing more so he better knows what the right answer is. I am more aware of my seat and leg position so that I can try to work on making the right thing easy (opening or closing energy spaces to ask him to move in a certain direction - vs. just always having both legs clamped on). If I were to talk about “levels” in dressage, I’d say we’re schooling 1st level and working on some 2nd level stuff (simple changes, counter canter, starting to think about a bit of collection). I think had I stayed with my last dressage trainer, we’d still be working on Training level on a 20-m circle, just because of the way her program is.
That’s what the BB work (and it could be anyone who is a good teacher and breaks down exercises into easily-understandable and useful tools - I’ve done a Bryan Neubert clinic and just audited a Gwynn/Dave Turnbull clinic and learned from each of them, too) has done for me in my dressage training. I still ride in my dressage saddle and bridle and breeches and boots. My goals aren’t showing for the sake of showing. My goals are to improve my horse’s movement, suppleness, willingness, way of going, and our partnership. And with this training, I’ve been able to do so more than I thought possible.
This was one of my questions/confusions exactly, the question of contact.
In my discussions with Betty, she helped me tremendously. She said that it is up to me how light I want my horse. That she has found a place where the horse is light, but the slack is completely taken out of the reins. That is what I have been looking for I think, something that ‘looks’ like dressage contact but doesn’t feel like it.
She also encourages self carriage of the horse early on and says the degree of collection will change as the horse progresses. I asked her about the ‘long and low’ stage, the stretch circle and all that. She is not a fan of the stretchy circle as why would you want a horse to basically take the reins out of your hands?
With my mare, who is still Training Level and jumping a little bit, I am working on self carriage and lightness through exercises, not contact. We back up a lot, something traditional dressagists usually do not do much and certainly not early on in training. Buck also went into getting the hind leg to leave first (going forward). Betty’s ‘reach forward’ exericse is a bit like Buck’s ‘drifting’ but straighter.
When my mare is where I want her to be, the contact is very light but it is not empty, as in a loose/slack rein. I have decided that works for me and that’s what I’m going for. She wears a regular cavesson and goes in a french link. She just did her first cross country over the weekend in the same snaffle and noseband with no issues even though there was a LOT to see and she was excited. We used all of our “Buck exercises” (short serpentines, hind/front yields) to get from the trailer to the xc warmup area because she was definitely on the muscle a bit (yes, started on the ground first).
So, that’s where I am personally in my own world regarding incorporating this philosophy in what I like to do. To me the MOST important thing has been the shift in thinking, outside the normal (my former) box, in everything, introducing to jumping, banks, water to how to handle groups of horses in the warmup (still very scary).
Here is a pic of her xc from Sunday.
