The Dressage - Brannaman nexus: Can we talk about particulars?

[katarine]

There is an arty side, that no science can explain.

I hate certain reins because there is no feel to them. They are just dead things. But a heavier leather rein, like a 3/4" split rein, 8’ long, well I can feel those. 1/2" 7’ reins are crap. And I’m snooty about lead ropes, the integrated ropes in the Steele halters are wonderful, I can feel those- but any off the shelf regular lead rope with a snap? Nope, just a dead thing.

I can’t achieve ‘feel’ with my rubber-padded Wintec reins. I still use them for trail riding/throwing the horse away, but I don’t expect ‘feel’. Same goes for any nylon rein ( I have some braided ones for trail riding). But I have a leather laced pair that are quite long and something about their weight works for me. Just depends.

As for how to explain it…Explain art vs porn then we’ll get back to whether ‘they’ are plain spoken or not, folks. and by the way I don’t think you need to worry about slobber straps- I think they can be too heavy and decorative but if they aren’t too fancy, they can be fine.

it’s in HOW it feels and plays in your hand, it just is. And that takes discovery and seeking. Some people just flat don’t have it. They are tone-deaf in that way, that’s ok, but it is what it is.

[froglander]

Pocket Pony and DLee, your posts have been very helpful!

In the other forum where I posted asking about “heavy english reins” I’ve been trying to describe what I mean and I showed that picture of Betty Staley on her horse, and they’ve declared that to be not “correct” contact and a “flutter rein”.

What you just relayed about contact DLee is very descriptive and helpful. I plan to continue with my dressage lessons, but I am going to continue to seek that “light but not empty” contact you mentioned.

I hope this thread is helpful to you OP because is sure has been helpful for me!! I’ve gotten quite a lot out of it and really appreciate the constructive input people have had

[Pocket_Pony]

@DLee;7241339

This was one of my questions/confusions exactly, the question of contact.

In my discussions with Betty, she helped me tremendously. She said that it is up to me how light I want my horse. That she has found a place where the horse is light, but the slack is completely taken out of the reins. That is what I have been looking for I think, something that ‘looks’ like dressage contact but doesn’t feel like it.
She also encourages self carriage of the horse early on and says the degree of collection will change as the horse progresses. I asked her about the ‘long and low’ stage, the stretch circle and all that. She is not a fan of the stretchy circle as why would you want a horse to basically take the reins out of your hands?

Great picture!!! Looks like fun!

I think because of my dressage background, I still like contact. But I want it to be a light and lively contact, not a dull and heavy contact. I think that is possible with the work I’m doing and I definitely feel a difference.

The degree of collection definitely changes - and if you follow the dressage levels, that is part of the progression. Where Mac is now in his training is more “up” in his frame and less “flat” if that makes sense.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7239741]

Working on a circle with a rope halter, first start with just asking your horse to go around you in a circle. Personally, I walk with my horse because I don’t like him to go in small circles, although I think some people frown on that. Get a nice, steady circle going, where the feel on the rope is just there and only weighs as much as the rope does. It is harder than you think to get a horse to just walk in a circle and maintain a good bend and not look outside of the circle or lean in with his balance. You want to be with him in terms of body posturing - if you get too far ahead of him, you’ll block his forward movement; if you get too far behind him, you’ll be behind the motion and he’ll be sort of dragging you along (plus, it is a dangerous place to be - especially if he wants to look out and then swing his haunches in and take off). You want to be standing around the girth area, but in the middle of the circle, obviously. When I do it, I face sort of forward - maybe 45 degrees between looking at him head-on and looking in exactly the same direction he’s going. Just walk. See if you can maintain forward, tempo, bend.

Once you have a good circle going and you aren’t pulling on the rope, it is just “there,” then change your body position so you walk back toward his haunches (so you are turning from walking forward at his shoulder to changing the angle of your body to face his haunches). Ideally you want him to yield to your pressure and move his haunches away from you and bring the inside hind leg further under the midline of the body and step across his other hind leg. Now, this isn’t going to happen on the first try, so you’ll need to use the lead on your halter to help him move over, timing a bump or half-halt, so to speak, when that inside hind leg leaves the ground. As he’s picking up that leg, step into his haunches (mind your position so you don’t get close enough to be kicked), bump by giving a little tug on the lead in your direction (depending on how soft he is it could be a bump or just a squeeze of the lead) so he bends toward you and he should step under with that hind leg. If he “gets it” then let him stop and soak it in for a bit and then just start again with the circle and then to the yielding of the hind legs.[/QUOTE]

On this exercise, a suggestion and a problem I hope you guys can help me with.

The suggestion:

Prioritize the feel of the rope/leading. For these exercises to work (and you not get dragged or trampled someday), the horse has to know that it’s his job to maintain that loop in the rope.

So if, when you change from that “lead him around the circle” position to “I’m by his hip and he should bend and step under with his hind end” position, correct it if the horse lets you keep tension on the lead. If you don’t do this now, you’re training your horse to let you pull on the rope. In other movements, you won’t be strong enough/quick enough to get them done with the horse leaning on you.

2. My problem. I’m doing this with a horse who has 20 years of high-headed/pulling himself around experience behind him. He’s also not smart and gets worried easily. I can get him to yield his hind quarters some. But most of the time, by the time I get my body to that spot, his big shoulder is way, way to close to me. How do I fix this issue?

I suspect that I need to go slower, not faster (I’d like to chase that big, dangerous, lazy shoulder out of my space). Maybe this horse needs to be rewarded with just one step sidesways with the hind end. If so, the idea is that when he’s stronger behind he’ll bring those shoulders with him? (IME, this is how the Brannaman types talk). Sometimes I don’t understand, or I have no faith, or I’m not willing to wait so long to get a horse to lift up his front end.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7240199]

Buck has said that this exercise sets the horse up for the outside leg to be planted (vs. the inside leg, which is I’m told how reiners spin), which is what you want if you’re doing canter pirouettes in dressage, for example. It also sets you up to strike off onto the correct canter lead, as that outside hind leg is already weighted and in position (the outside hind leg is the first step of a canter stride).

I hope I didn’t botch this explanation and that it makes sense![/QUOTE]

I, too, have heard Brannaman talk about planting the outside hind. But Heads UP! This is not how a canter pirouette is done in dressage! No planting of any leg. Priority one there is that the horse maintain the rhythm of the canter. He is “going forward” all the time, just with his hind feet happening to canter forward on a smaller and smaller circle (in training) until they are on one spot.

From DressageWorld, I do keep this commitment to going forward at all times unless I meant to ask for back. That TOF-to-TOH move can be hard because most horses somewhere in the transition start taking steps backward in the TOH phase. How bad is that? I think it’s bad, but the clinicians I have seen don’t seem to worry about it. I can’t tell if they don’t because they are just teaching the move to new students but wouldn’t accept that themselves, or whether its because they don’t think it matters for the purposes of engaging the hind end (and particularly, the inside hind leg) the way they want.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Bluey;7241038]

I understood the OP’s questions to be, “is there a line there we are trying to cross, should we be doing that and how far should we cross it?”

My answer, only to a certain point, or we may lose what we really are after with each already well established way of training and riding and purposes for those and end with no fish or fowl, but a confused horse and rider.[/QUOTE]

Whatsamattayou, Bluey?

If you’ll read my OP and then the posts I did finally get time to come back and make, I think you’ll see that I have particular questions about using various feels/techniques and exercises. That’s what I said and that’s what I meant. I didn’t imply the broader, more general and theoretical question you inferred.

Honest to God, I don’t care. I’m riding some untalented grade horses in East Jesus, PNW. No one is watching. No one is going to the Olympics. And few around me can help me get better, so I’m making it up as I go along because I don’t want to ride the jarring, unhappy, stiff ways of going these horses had before I started reforming them. I just want to figure out a fast and fair way of improving them. It’s totally pragmatic.

[froglander]

[QUOTE=mvp;7241393]
On this exercise, a suggestion and a problem I hope you guys can help me with.

The suggestion:

Prioritize the feel of the rope/leading. For these exercises to work (and you not get dragged or trampled someday), the horse has to know that it’s his job to maintain that loop in the rope.

So if, when you change from that “lead him around the circle” position to “I’m by his hip and he should bend and step under with his hind end” position, correct it if the horse lets you keep tension on the lead. If you don’t do this now, you’re training your horse to let you pull on the rope. In other movements, you won’t be strong enough/quick enough to get them done with the horse leaning on you.

2. My problem. I’m doing this with a horse who has 20 years of high-headed/pulling himself around experience behind him. He’s also not smart and gets worried easily. I can get him to yield his hind quarters some. But most of the time, by the time I get my body to that spot, his big shoulder is way, way to close to me. How do I fix this issue?

I suspect that I need to go slower, not faster (I’d like to chase that big, dangerous, lazy shoulder out of my space). Maybe this horse needs to be rewarded with just one step sidesways with the hind end. If so, the idea is that when he’s stronger behind he’ll bring those shoulders with him? (IME, this is how the Brannaman types talk). Sometimes I don’t understand, or I have no faith, or I’m not willing to wait so long to get a horse to lift up his front end.[/QUOTE]

How does he do if you ask for that one step over with his haunches and then let him walk forward again? Do you use any sort of stick with a string/flag to kind of be an extension of your arm if needed?

Coming from Clinton Anderson’s Downunder Horsemanship book (from when I first got my mustang) he has one where the horse is supposed to yield its hindquarters and I was trying to find a picture to illustrate, but as he’s looking to the hindquarters, he keeps the hand closer to the horse (that is holding the leadrope) kind of more up around eye height as kind of a visual barrier for the horse to not step into him with the front end but to just step over with the hind?

[mvp]

[QUOTE=froglander;7241433]
How does he do if you ask for that one step over with his haunches and then let him walk forward again? Do you use any sort of stick with a string/flag to kind of be an extension of your arm if needed?

Coming from Clinton Anderson’s Downunder Horsemanship book (from when I first got my mustang) he has one where the horse is supposed to yield its hindquarters and I was trying to find a picture to illustrate, but as he’s looking to the hindquarters, he keeps the hand closer to the horse (that is holding the leadrope) kind of more up around eye height as kind of a visual barrier for the horse to not step into him with the front end but to just step over with the hind?[/QUOTE]

Thank you for engaging with my question about the Shoulder Horse.

I haven’t tried asking for one step of sideways with the hind followed by go forward again, per se.

I have done asked him for a leg yield out on the circle (or “drift” in BB parlance)… because I wanted him to pick up that shoulder and move it the hell out of my space. Meh. You have to get pretty big to get that horse to do that. And he gets scared. And it really isn’t getting better fast. For him, I think it’s primarily biomechanics.

I do hold the rope high and what I find is that he’ll move his hind end over, but lose the bend so that he doesn’t move his front end and pretty soon, my little body is way to close to the shoulder of this big horse. IMO, he’s leaving his inside leg planted more or less, or he’s continuing to bear most os his weight on that inside fore. That has been his MO his whole life. This horse used to have the worst high-headed, 4-beat, motorcycling gallop.

I think I need to tune up his commitment to keeping a soft feel on the rope, but any big moves on my part scares him. He’s mentally a fragile flower.

He is much better at lifting up his shoulders and putting them where I want them under saddle. And the short serpentine exercised I finally got to learn while riding was a surprise in how much it helped that “pick up your shoulders and let me move them where I want” issue in this horse.

All that means is that I’m better at getting this under saddle than I am on the ground. But I’d like to fix the in-hand issue, if for no other reason than to learn how to do it.

[froglander]

I seem to recall one of the things mentioned often in the DVDs is timing and how it relates to that elusive ‘feel’?

On the ground, how are you at timing your requests to him to step away from you to his footfalls?

When I was playing on the ground last night with what Pocket Pony had described I found that sometimes he’d lose the forward as I was asking his haunches to step away, so I would point with the hand with the leadrope to get a couple of more forward steps before asking for a step out/over with the haunches again. After he took a few steps, and the circle /did/ get kinda small, and before he lost the forward motion again, I would send him back out on the circle before asking again.

Oh! Another exercise that BB does that I find kind of fun and is neat when my horse Cody starts to get it and really get his shoulders over, is the one where he starts walking in a straight line and sends the horse back and forth in front of him as he walks.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=froglander;7241484]
I seem to recall one of the things mentioned often in the DVDs is timing and how it relates to that elusive ‘feel’?

On the ground, how are you at timing your requests to him to step away from you to his footfalls?

When I was playing on the ground last night with what Pocket Pony had described I found that sometimes he’d lose the forward as I was asking his haunches to step away, so I would point with the hand with the leadrope to get a couple of more forward steps before asking for a step out/over with the haunches again. After he took a few steps, and the circle /did/ get kinda small, and before he lost the forward motion again, I would send him back out on the circle before asking again.

Oh! Another exercise that BB does that I find kind of fun and is neat when my horse Cody starts to get it and really get his shoulders over, is the one where he starts walking in a straight line and sends the horse back and forth in front of him as he walks.[/QUOTE]

I’m pretty good with timing my aids to foot falls. Of course, I can get better. But I have been made a believer in the necessity of asking a horse to move over when he physically can, only.

In another thread on a similar topic, this was one conclusion we dressage-breds came to: The BB school has made a unique and exceptionally worthwhile conceptual contribution in their emphasis on timing aids to foot falls. I don’t recall this being a predominant topic of discussion in DressageWorld, though I did have a few very technical instructors who wanted me to develop a feel for what the hind legs were going and talked about the timing of aids as opposed to just “laying 'em on until I got a response.”

Noticing the responsiveness that BB Clinician guy always got when he took over a participant’s horse, I suspect that I need to get that in the Not Smart/Shoulder Horse. I’d really like to take this horse back to this guy’s next clinic for help with making him sharper without scaring him.

I will try that back and forth exercise you mention. It will either help this horse out, or it will really, really show me how weak behind he actually is.

[froglander]

Good luck and sorry my post was hard to read. There were run-on sentences and it kinda wandered

Argh, if only I wasn’t stuck at work, I want to go play with my pony after reading all of this

[Wirt]

What you need to take into consideration, is that this type of riding is for a working stock horse. The moves, the turns, the backing, the stopping, are all designed and appropriate for working cattle and roping. You might say that the rest of it is teaching it with smoothness and finesse, and a rich understanding of what is taking place in the horse’s mind. As a result, there can be parallels made between the working stock horse and the dressage horse, but the stock horse Buck and the like train have a purpose and a job. It is about doing that job with some quality. A dressage horse today has no job, no purpose,really, other than to show training. There can be techniques that cross over, because, for instance,many struggle with a half- halt, because they really don’t know what a halt is to start with. Backing is not a big part of a dressage test, but backing could be a good gymnastic exercise for the dressage horse. But Buck is not a dressage trainer in the modern sense of the word. I wouldn’t go too far in trying to connect the two.

[DLee]

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7241378]
Great picture!!! Looks like fun!

I think because of my dressage background, I still like contact. But I want it to be a light and lively contact, not a dull and heavy contact. I think that is possible with the work I’m doing and I definitely feel a difference.

The degree of collection definitely changes - and if you follow the dressage levels, that is part of the progression. Where Mac is now in his training is more “up” in his frame and less “flat” if that makes sense.[/QUOTE]

I agree totally, I like contact too, and light and lively is a great description. :yes:

I probably didn’t need to write that the degree of collection changes, as we most likely all know that, but I was reading what she wrote to me and included that. Yes, Mac (and I love your videos of him!) being more up in front and less flat totally makes sense.

I feel like I’m skipping a bit over Training Level dressage stuff and asking for more than I would have in the past, more engagement, walk to canter transitions, backing etc, things that will make her stronger and lighter in front, earlier than I have in my dressage horses past. It’s actually going back a bit to my western background, where walk to canter transitions were just a given, things like that.

This has been a great discussion, it’s always nice to connect with like minded. :yes:

[mvp]

On the body position and turning (and weird legs) topic. Here’s my essay/way of doing it and why:

1. I start with the aid I’ll ultimately want to use with the horse. That is turning my head (or maybe my shoulders, and I wouldn’t mind having my sitting bones give signals, which I’ll get to later). This is true for any horse-- dressager, trail horse, fox hunter, show hunter (especially), bridle horse (if I ever make one), whatever. I want to ride a horse from my body alone because I’m lazy.

2. When I turn a horse, then, I start with the aid I want to be the only on in the end and I layer on harder/more influential aids until I get a response. When I get a response, I go back to neutral. That might mean I allow the horse to finish the turn. Or I allow him to straighten out and go forward.

3. Some day, too, I want to create a signal in my body for “reach under with your inside hind leg and get off that shoulder”. That might be going in a straight line.

For me, that aid has three elements that happen almost simultaneously:

a) I lengthen the distance between the wing of my pelvis and my bottom rib on the inside side.
b) I bring my inside shoulder back.
c) I “check in” or feel with my inside sitting bone. I might “Say, ‘yo!’” to the horse’s back with it for a split second. Or I might “scoop” with that sitting bone for a stride; so the signal feels more purposeful and it has a longer duration.

I do enough to feel the horse “hear me” my reaching more forward and under with that inside hind leg.

2. I have tried to think about how to use this along with the BB way of doing that one-rein stop and their TOF. I understand their explanation about putting the inside leg back to move the haunches over and even the discussion about the haunches always moving out while a horse is bent on a circle. But I can’t see wanting to ride a made horse with my legs flipping back and forth like scissors.

I don’t think those guys intend that either. They sure emphasize it in clinics. So where does that leave the learning rider? Will she end up kicking her leg back forever because she wasn’t told anything else about the leg or seat?

The local BB Clinician guy is good because he does more “Put your hand or leg in X or Y” position that does Brannaman. He’s trying to get a recipe for body position that he can give to his students. But that’s only to a point and it’s not nearly enough for those of us who have had the benefit of riding lessons in EnglishWorld. I haven’t heard this guy talk about what he’s doing with his seat while his inside leg is that far back at all. If he doesn’t talk about that (or know, or care) I don’t think he can develop the kind of aid for “bring your inside hind leg under you” that I want in a finished horse.

To answer the question about how I use my body to turn. The steps I teach my students:

0. (Position) I might ride with split reins bridged in front of me, my hands pretty wide apart, up and in front of the horn. The point is to create a fixed relationship between my hands and my shoulders. Also, and perhaps Brannaman’s “rectangle” relates to this, the horse is even between my sitting bones (and thighs and even calves) and my shoulders (and hands). He’s in a box, hitting any of its corners softly and rebounding. That’s a horse on the aids.

1. I turn my head and shoulders in the direction I want to go. I turn at the waist, my shoulders are even. No dropping the inside one, as with the motorcycle horse mentioned above.

2. Once I have turned pretty far, I know/can feel, my inside sitting one weighted.

3. I use an opening rein for the shortest duration possible. It’s a reinforcement of the request for a turn that I already issued with my body. When he starts to turn, I put my hands back in neutral-- even on either side of his neck.

4. I close my outside leg to sweep him around and finish the turn.

Any of these I can make harder or longer. If I want to be sure I have put my body in the right position, I look around, trying to see the base of the tail. When I feel the horse take a big sweeping step over with his hind end, I know he heard my body and I go back to neutral.

I can use that “look for the base of the tail” to teach me to feel a big step with the hind end and to teach the horse an initial, crude version of that final body-based aid for “reach under with your hind leg.” To the horse, when I lengthen my waist and bring my shoulder back, it’s the thin end of the “I’m going to twist all the way around and look at your tail” move… which causes him to step over with his hind end just to avoid falling over.

Sorry that took so long to explain. If we were in the ring together, it would take 10 minutes for you to start doing.

[monstrpony]

[QUOTE=mvp;7241524]

I will try that back and forth exercise you mention. It will either help this horse out, or it will really, really show me how weak behind he actually is.[/QUOTE]

This is a really useful exercise, and it has enough motion to it that it can be easier (not easy, just easier) to get the shoulder to get out of the way so they can keep moving with you.

When you just do circles (from the ground), and go to change direction (the important part!), make sure that you have a part where you move the haunches, and then a separate part where you move the forehand (you are changing eyes at this point, which can be sticky, even though you’re doing it from the front). It sounds like the forehand is stuck. I have a friend who has a horse like this and it IS hard to get it to move without getting the horse worried. Another thing to work on is just moving the forehand around in a circle (pivot on haunches), from the ground, and, with this kind of horse, really study where the line is between insisting that he move, and him getting defensive. You don’t want to have to get aggressive, because his problem is that he is insecure so he’s using his shoulder as a defense. Have to seek that boundary …

More detail, in case you need it, you may well know this already: you stand on his left, facing his cheek, rope in your right hand (to limit forward movement). Raise both hands, fingers open, and kind of flap them at him, or move your open hand toward his cheek as though you were hitting a volleyball. He should get the idea to move away from you; he’ll probably try to just bend his head and neck, but you have to convince him to step over with his forehand (and not move his haunches). It will be really (really!) ugly at first, but he has to overcome his inclination to bully you with his shoulder, and move it away from you. Reward (release; stop and pat him) for any movement of his feet. Just … do what you have to, to make it happen, without flustering him. It’s okay to bump him on the cheek with the heel of your hand, left hand in this direction (don’t slap him, don’t poke him with your fingers, just bump with the heel of your hand). Possibly bump him high on the neck in the same way with your right hand. Do as much as it takes. This is as much as anything for you to find the boundary, as it is for him to finally break loose and move his front feet. Then, let him walk out of it, into a circle (to the left, in this case), move the haunches to change direction, and come in when he moves the forehand to do the same thing in the opposite direction.

Another thing that Buck insists on, is that when you go to have him circle around you on a halter rope, start by walking toward him and making him move the shoulder out of your way. Say you want him to circle left; you start standing in front of him or even a bit on his right side, and walk toward him, asking him to move his shoulders to his right, away from you, so that he is facing the right way to move into a circle to the left. (this is really hard to explain, sorry). Get that forehand moving. With this kind of horse, it is really ugly at first, but it makes SUCH a difference when you get it working.

Again, I realize you may be past this already, but perhaps this will help someone following along–

[froglander]

Wow, that was a great description, much appreciated!

I have a dressage lesson tonight, but I plan to get to the barn early and see what I can incorporate into my warm-up

[Fillabeana]

I, too, have heard Brannaman talk about planting the outside hind.

No, not planted!
Weighted, folks. Weighted. That is the strike off foot for the canter on the correct lead (whether through a rollback/cowturn or dressage pirouette or just plain balanced canter strike-off). The horse has to carry his weight on that strike-off leg if he is to strike off into a balanced canter. No, a horse should NOT ‘plant’ a foot, if he does he’s got a brace and is not using himself properly, so yes, mvp, I think you’re absolutely right to say no, you DON’T ride a canter pirouette with a hind leg ‘planted’. The horse should, in turns on HQ or FQ, in walk or canter, always be moving his feet in the proper sequence of walk or canter. (And no, I don’t think you would likely do a turn-on-forehand in the canter!)

That ‘shoulder’ thing, mvp, I only just got right on the ground, especially with my pushy little cutting-horse mares. After three years. And yes, I could absolutely control the shoulders mounted. But it might be a while with the horse you have!
First, you have to be ABSOLUTELY sure that you are not pulling the horse into YOUR space with the lead rope, when you ask for the HQ to yield. If you put an ask/tug on the rope, and step away/toward the HQ to move them, the horse is now moving YOU with his shoulders. And he knows it, even if you don’t.

Watch here, at 1:17. There are only a few frames, but Clinton Anderson seems to think he’s moving a horse’s HQ, while the horse seems to think he’s moving Clinton Anderson with HIS shoulders:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NREoSIPWQ0E
Later, at 1:50, the horse is doing the same thing.

Yes, this whole video is a hot mess on many levels. I’m not posting it to start a Clinton Anderson trainwreck. But I wanted to show how easy it is to get really after the HQ and not realize that the horse is moving YOUR feet with his shoulders.
I think that on some level, this is likely part of your trouble.

Also, I was helped a lot by D’Lee’s videos of groundwork from this last summer, if I recall right you thought Annie was ‘light’ but Mindy really got after how the mare was coming into your space on the ground?

As for ‘contact’ and ‘dressage’, I really honestly don’t think 90% (or more) dressage people really understand that ‘contact’ is never, ever the horse pulling on you steadily. I have known two ‘dressage’ riders who really DID understand how to use the reins, and I am unfortunately of the opinion that most dressage folks don’t.
That ‘light and lively’, that ‘horse-feeling-back-to-you’ through the reins, where you have a connection rather than a constant traction…that is what I got from Buck and Bryan and Betty and my ‘dressage person’, you don’t pull the horse’s lips back and close his mouth with a flash, figure 8 or drop noseband.

And the more I learn about this, the more sure I am that once I have my horse in the bridle I will be able to go to the Lake County Fair and have a competitive showing in the open stock horse class, and next weekend change into spandex and show at Tulelake at 2nd or 3rd level, to a 65% or higher test. And, at the same time, I do not want instruction from 90% of the ‘reined cowhorse’ trainers any more than I want instruction from 90% of dressage trainers. Nor, in fact, from quite a lot of ‘NH’ trainers. Aggressive is NOT a comely trait in any trainer, and so, so many people are not able to distinguish it from ‘firm’. But ask any 3rd grader with a good teacher, or any horse if he likes his handler- if they’re FIRM when need be, the answer is obvious. If they rely on aggression, not likely!!

[Pocket_Pony]

@mvp;7241630

I don’t think those guys intend that either. They sure emphasize it in clinics. So where does that leave the learning rider? Will she end up kicking her leg back forever because she wasn’t told anything else about the leg or seat?

The local BB Clinician guy is good because he does more “Put your hand or leg in X or Y” position that does Brannaman. He’s trying to get a recipe for body position that he can give to his students. But that’s only to a point and it’s not nearly enough for those of us who have had the benefit of riding lessons in EnglishWorld. I haven’t heard this guy talk about what he’s doing with his seat while his inside leg is that far back at all. If he doesn’t talk about that (or know, or care) I don’t think he can develop the kind of aid for “bring your inside hind leg under you” that I want in a finished horse.

I hear what you’re saying and this is one of the problems I have with clinics that aren’t 1/1 teacher/student. I’ve found that there’s a big gap in the students’ knowledge and/or riding experience. There’s only so much material that can be covered in a day, so where do you start? On one hand you’ve got students who may not have had a lot of formal training, but do have a lot of bad habits they’ve picked up from always riding on their own. Their tack doesn’t fit them or their horse so the horse is pissy and uncomfortable doing the work and/or the rider is just not set up to do the work well because the saddle doesn’t fit them. Then you’ve got issues with having horses in some sort of curb bit but the rider is trying to two-hand the reins, so again the equipment isn’t being used properly. Then you’ve got someone who is scared so has a big bit but the horse doesn’t want to go so they have big spurs . . . yet no idea of how/when to use them. Or someone who doesn’t know about diagonals/leads, how to turn a circle, how to ask for a canter depart, whatever. Then on the opposite end of the spectrum might be people coming over from the english world who don’t know anything about this western-type stuff, but have plenty of riding experience, so the concept of aids and leg and seat position isn’t new to them but they need help with timing or release or using new equipment or just trying something new. I think it must be so hard for the clinician to meet everyone’s needs. One thing I’ve consistently seen is that it would do a lot of people a lot of good to just take some weekly riding lessons before they go to a cow clinic or whatever.

I agree with Wirt’s assessment of a working horse vs. a dressage horse. While, yes, a dressage horse’s job is to physically exert itself in a manner fitting the test, and perform that test under specific conditions, it really isn’t work like a ranch horse’s work is. When you take away the school, and you’re out in the open, then what? Hopefully the dressage horse would be able to perform based on the training it has received (at least the movements, if not actually successfully moving cows based on the lack of understanding of “cowmanship” or whatever you might call it) - ideally the training transfers from arena to trail. I can say that for myself, when I’ve put my training to the test (ok, I’ve only done some rudimentary cow work twice but it was great fun!), thinking about where to put this leg vs. this shoulder vs. this seatbone went flying out the window and I had to just DO, not think. And it worked out and it was fun.

So for those of us ammies who just want to have horses and play and have fun, I think that dressage can provide a nice foundation for the rider - if the rider takes lessons, applies herself to learning and training and understanding the basics of how a horse moves and where the leg goes and what to do with the hands, etc. And then going to clinics or taking lessons on this type of horsemanship is also useful because you’ve got a basic skill set that you can refine and build upon and maybe have fun with outside of the arena.

I think either way it takes commitment from the rider to be the best they can be and always strive to learn more and do right and better for the horse.

[froglander]

I just want to say again how happy I am to have stumbled upon this thread, how useful it has been, and how glad I am to have found some like-minded individuals Maybe I’m not as crazy as I thought I was…

[Pocket_Pony]

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7241779]
No, not planted!
Weighted, folks. Weighted. That is the strike off foot for the canter on the correct lead (whether through a rollback/cowturn or dressage pirouette or just plain balanced canter strike-off). The horse has to carry his weight on that strike-off leg if he is to strike off into a balanced canter. No, a horse should NOT ‘plant’ a foot, if he does he’s got a brace and is not using himself properly

That was my original word choice, which was clearly a poor one. Yes, the outside leg strikes of first, and yes to the forward motion and correct footfalls. Sometimes when you type too fast you miss some points.

And, at the same time, I do not want instruction from 90% of the ‘reined cowhorse’ trainers any more than I want instruction from 90% of dressage trainers. Nor, in fact, from quite a lot of ‘NH’ trainers. Aggressive is NOT a comely trait in any trainer, and so, so many people are not able to distinguish it from ‘firm’. [/QUOTE]

I agree here, too. Which is why I mostly work on my own these days. I’ve observed some clinicians whom people LOVE, yet whom I find way too aggressive for my liking. Since people loved this person I gave it a try but that little voice inside my head said to move on.

I am thankful for the education I’ve had because it has taught me a lot. I am also thankful that I’m at a point in my riding where I feel comfortable experimenting on my own.